Love/ Limerence

[Stavros_]

This is a very difficult topic to discuss, I don't even know how to connect it with adhd but, I just want to put it out there.

Have you ever met someone that when you talk to them for the first time, it felt like you knew them for like ten years? Someone you can admire, that you feel that by being around them makes you a better person, you learn from them. That it feels like you see the world with the same eyes, like at the core you are the same human, you just grew up in different environments yet they are different enough to challenge your perspective. There is an unparallel level of understanding, you say 1 and they understand 10 and vice versa. That when you where with them, all the noise in your head goes away. Someone you really trust.

I met that person. And, to him I'm probably just another friend, although I've expressed my feelings and, he was really cool with it!, the next day we talked like it was nothing, I still feel pain.

We are apart for almost two years now, we still talk regularly, but couple years ago, when I saw him almost every day, it was so messy, my emotions where all over the place, I'd get panic attacks almost every other day. I was thinking about that person from the moment I wake up, till I fall asleep, for four years (that's too pathetic I know).

The other problematic thing is that before and even after I expressed my feelings, I'd try to find moments, little things, bits from conversations, looks, smiles, touches etc o feed my brain that he liked me, and he even didn't know that he liked me! We are talking astronomical levels of delulu.... This only made feel more stressed, the delulu was fighting reality and reality would hit hard, leaving the delulu to collect the pieces again.

I can say I'm mostly over it now. But even now, when we talk on the phone I still get this feeling, like grief, nostalgia and pure pain. I definitely fear that I won't find another one like him, and even if I do, the same thing will happen. And I know you'll say: nooo you'll find that someone, and honestly f<"k you, sorry, sorry......sorry

We talk on the phone and still laugh, stress and wonder about the future, I still fill in his words because he gets stuck a lot and can't think of the right ones.

The intensity of the feeling is gone but the pain of it still lingers and it gets funneled when we talk and I hear his voice.

I don't know what to do, meeting new people, even without expectations is still disappointing. And I want to, I really want to, to find someone I can have the same level of chemistry. I am not seeking the same person, or the same chemistry. It can be a different type of dynamic/ chemistry, I am open to that, I want it to be one parallel level.

Before him I can say, I didn't know what it felt to fall in love, I had my crushes, but once we where out of school and not in my peripheral vision, I'd forget about them. I didn't know how it was to find that one person, I didn't know I can like so many things about someone. The understanding, the trust, the safety. It's just that now, all these good things I wanted, and I didn't know I wanted from someone, have a face, are matterialised (why am I thinking the Dora the explorer intro while I right this, while listening to, I bet on loosing dogs?)... are matterialised in one person. All the things I want from a relationship, have an example.

When I think that I feel all of that for someone, and that someone doesn't feel the same, 🤡, I feel like a 🤡. It's so weird how much you can mean for someone while you don't even know it. I really hope I didn't hurt anyone like that ever.

And before you say it, I haven't put that person on a pedestal, maybe at the begging of meeting him, but everyone, fffffliping EVERYONE liked him, exept one lesbian couple that seemed annoyed by him. Genuinely a good guy, smart, genuinely, genuinely, a good person.

...................

If you've read all of that, thank you, I'm putting it here for attention, and to have it all articulated when I talk about it with a therapist, cause damn.

Thank you again.

[Jozlynn]

I completely understand the feelings you described in your first paragraph. I'm currently married to someone that I felt that with, but I have also experienced it in the same circumstances you find yourself in - where the feelings themselves are unrequited.

You add to that the fact that we are usually pretty intensely emotional, and those attachments can both benefit us and tear us apart.

I won't give you some BS about how you'll find that special someone some day, because how does that help in the now, right? Plus, that's a statement that no one can make with any authority.

I'm glad to hear you're going to be talking to you therapist about things, because I don't know what the solution is. All I can tell you is that for me - with one particular person, who became that "ideal person" to me for 6 years, when we spent more time IN PERSON together, I noticed the things about them that brought me back down to earth. They still stink up the bathroom, leave the toilet seat up and pee on the rim, fail to restock the toilet paper so I'd show up to nothing, leave toothpaste in the sink - stupid sh!t like that. It made me realize that as much as we were aligned in so many ways, there was a human side to them that came with that - and that part of them didn't always align with what I wanted out of life (the issues were bigger than just bathroom issues - that's just a stupid example).

I do not in ANY way mean to say your guy isn't wonderful in all ways - that was just my experience.

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that this has been tugging at your heart for so long, and I hope for you that you do meet someone like that who DOES return the emotion.

[Stavros_ in reply to Jozlynn]

Thank you so much, and what you said is very true,

i've been hanging arround with that person for some years and i can say, he is a wonderful guy, but he definitely has some baggage, i even convised him to go to therapy.

I have a question, you said that you have met a person like the one i discribed, meaning, in a phrase, you have amazing chemistry. You met that person, he/she didnt reciprocate your feelings. Then you met another one, that you are now married to. How was it? How different are these two people? do they look alike, do they have the same humor? maybe they are different in these ways but the feeling you get from them is simmilar. Can you explain the feeling and all that, if there was something i didnt type correctly please tell me and ill try to type it better.

I dont know what to say else other than, thank you again, and that you are incredibly lucky you found not once but twice the type of person i talked about.

thank you again.

[Jozlynn in reply to Stavros_]

To answer your first question, I was still somewhat mentally hung up on the first person I felt that with - you know, just kind of yearning and hoping something would change on their end - when I met the person I later married. They are as different as night and day, to be totally honest. But when I met my now husband, it was like all that previous heartache went away. We connected so deeply and what felt like completely that I no longer had any sense of longing for the other person. Still loved them - always will, I think - but it actually put that whole situation into complete clarity and perspective for me.

Not only is it better when you connect that way with someone who returns your feelings, but it grows the more you get to know each other. This is not to say we haven't had our fair share of issues and times where we felt disconnected - but we've been together for over 20 years now, married for almost 15 - and we've weathered the storms, together. This is my second marriage, and I can say without any hesitation that this was 1000x better than the first for me. I married for the wrong reasons the first time and lived in that unfulfilled state for 13 years, wondering what real love felt like.

You described the feeling perfectly. It's like knowing someone on a level that you don't know anyone else. Like your spirits are just MEANT to be together. Even though it took us 5 years to do it, I knew from our first conversation (which lasted like 6 hours) that I was meant to be with my husband. Every time along the way that I would doubt that (I was a little gun shy from my divorce), if I sat and thought about it, there was just a "knowing" deep inside of me.

It's not a magical wonderland, because in the end we're still human and we still eff up now and again, but it's sustaining to my spirit to have a partner who truly, deeply feels like my "other half".

[Stavros_ in reply to Jozlynn]

Again, you are incredibly lucky to find that person. I remember with the guy i talked about before, we would talk for hours, he'd call to ask something about a math problem and we would talk for four hours about, i dont even know what. Now, not so much but still we can talk about everything and the amazing thing is that although we don't find the same things funny/ interesting, we can make eachother laugh and share thoughts that are interesting to eachother....

I like that the two people you mentioned are completely different but they evoked the same level of chemistry. Opens up more possibilities.

[BLC89]

Hello Stavros_You are brave to put this out there, kudos.

I obviously don't know what preceded this wonderful person entering your life but it reminds of a friend who had a similar experience.

What the wonderful person did for them was make them aware of what they really wanted from the person who may hold their heart.

As you say it has materialized right in front of you. I think that is fantastic validation that people like that do exist, many of us aren't so sure and settle when we don't have to.

It sounds like, that although your person is spectacular there is one major ingredient missing - they don't feel the same way you d - so they are nearly perfect for ypu, but not qite.

I'm guessing the timing isn't right for your perfect match.

But you know they can exist and maybe that relaxes part of, allows you to carry on, go on adventures and do what you want to do knowing you won't miss them when the time is right.

Appreciate what your friend has to offer and morn the loss of what you wish could have been.

It is a loss. You created a world where the two of you are together and life is fantastic. Unfortunately that won't come to be, so morn the loss of that idea, that's what hurts, the loss, and that's OK! Absolutely NOTHING pathetic about how you feel or how long you feel it. We are all on our own timeline.

Hug your sad parts and enjoy what the friend has to offer. In your heart thank them for showing you that amazing people who totally get you exist.

I honestly believe everything happens for a reason and this person is in your life for a reason. Maybe it is just to show you how you deserve all the good life has to offer. You deserve someone who TOTALLY gets you.

Processing with a therapist is fantastic and a very kind gift to give to yourself, kudos again.

Good luck with everything,

BLC89

[Stavros_ in reply to BLC89]

Thank you for everything you said, and th weird thing is tha, i've imagined a relationship with him (still do sometimes, image them changing their mind, which is very unhealthy), but when i did, i imagined the relationship and i was misserable in it. Like i new that even if it could happen, it wouldnt have been a happy relationship for reasons that i have worked on now and reasons that person had or still has.

Isn't it weid though? that i was so obsessed about that person, but when i tried to imagine a relationship, it would have these issues. Buty again maybe these issues came up because i didnt see him be intrested in me in that way, maybe if he was i would have a very defferent picture. we'll never know OR, maybe we will delulu hiting again.

[BLC89]

I am convinced our bodies know the ultimate truth. So your brain not able to see the wonderful "happily ever after" doesn't surprise me. They are great but not the right fit for you and some part of you knows that. I things it's pretty cool. When we can really hear what our bodies/minds/ spirit/gut have to say, life works out really well.

[Spud-u-Like1982]

Hi Stavros,

I completely understand what you mean. I let a woman like that go about 17 years ago (I didn't realise it was that long ago - where did the time go?) and I honestly still think about her and hope she still thinks of me. I doubt I could ever find anyone like her again, with that chemistry. It was addictive. All subsequent relationships have been disappointing.

What you had was clearly love and definitely seems to be part of the ADHD/OCD mindset, as I can do relate to the intensity you mention.

Fingers crossed you can find something similar with someone else, but the imprint left on your heart will never fade, there just might be further, different imprints added to it.

Best of luck!

[Stavros_ in reply to Spud-u-Like1982]

I figured that would be the case, that the pain would remain and maybe i was lucky i didn't have an actual relationship with him, our lives went in different ways inevitably so, it hurts much more now as you feel. In my mind the pain is like, a little demon following us screaming, we keep walking and it keeps following us, we stop and acknowledge it and it calms down but when we keep walking it starts screaming again. So we have to hold it and keep moving and after a while, we'll become strong enough to not even notice its weight.

Fingers crossed you will find someone like that again.

[STEM_Dad]

I can answer the connection between ADHD and limerence in a single word: DOPAMINE

That said, in reality, limerence is just as complex of a thing to understand as ADHD is.

The term "limerence" was created by a psychologist who defined it as "being madly in love".

[TL;DR - limerence is natural, but not that common; there's nothing wrong with experiencing it, depending on the circumstances]

~~~~~

MY EXPERIENCE WITH LOVE & LIMERENCE

I don't think that I have experienced limerence. I've had a few crushes, and I've had one long-lasting infatuation with someone. (I think that I came close to limerence then, but it wasn't as intense as what people who have experienced limerence have said, like what you've described.) I've been in love multiple times... always with that same person that I had been infatuated with.

• Long story made short: I fell in love with my highschool sweetheart. I had to wait a long time for her, but we did eventually get married and were married for 20 years (having some good times and some bad ones). I fell "in love" with her multiple times over the years (meaning the emotional-romantic "eros" love), but I've always loved her in a dedicated sort of way... even since our divorce.

..........

I started learning about limerence a few years ago, when I was trying to understand why my then-wife had fallen in love with another man. (I came to recognize that they were in limerence with each other.)

So, my experience with limerence was a bad one, but that doesn't mean that my opinion of limerence is bad.

~~~~~

WHAT I'VE LEARNED ABOUT LIMERENCE

I learned about limerence from a number of sources, from writings by the original researcher (going back to the 1960s or '70s), to relationship experts who are familiar with it, to modern research about it.

Research has found some interesting things about it, including:

• Dopamine is a major factor in the intensity of the desire for the other person

• It has been likened to an addiction to a particular person, referred to in the research as the "limerent object", abbreviated as "LO"

• Brain scans of people who are experiencing limerence are very similar to those of people who have Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD); however, experiencing limerence has not been reported to have any actual connection to OCD

• Limerence has been found to have a definite end; it typically lasts from a few months to about 3 years (very rarely to as long as 4 years); this time isn't cumulative...it's possible that when apart from the LO for a long period of time, the limerence is essentially on-hold, but then continues when

• It is only possible to have limerence for that particular person once; when it has run its course, it ends; if the person develops limerence for a new person, they won't experience it for the first person again (which doesn't mean they can't fall in love with that person again...but it won't be as intense as limerence gets)

..........

Professionals' opinions of limerence vary.

It is believed that most people are capable of experiencing limerence, but estimates of the number of people who do range from 5% to over 60% of people.

Many people never experience it, some experience it only once, and some people might experience it multiple times (i.e. multiple different LOs) in their lifetime.

People who have experienced trauma in their youth might be more susceptible to experiencing it.

[Spud-u-Like1982 in reply to STEM_Dad]

I hadn't heard of the term until I read this post. Looking at the breakdown in details that you put, i'm not sure if what I had was more infatuation as the result of OCD/ADHD and being a hopeless romantic.It was great though when my romantic antics were appreciated and reciprocated, but as my recent failed relationship has shown me, when it's not, I definitely suffer and end up falling out of love.

Relationships are such complex things and we could analyse them for eternity and still never truly understand them. Finding your partner has been cheating must really hurt something awful.

[STEM_Dad in reply to Spud-u-Like1982]

Relationships are indeed complicated things.

Yeah, I hurt so bad that I felt like I could die from the pain in my soul. What saved me from getting swallowed up by the pain was the love I've got for my kids. They gave me a reason to push forward.

Even though my marriage ended very badly...

... I'm still a hopeless romantic.*

~~~~~

Now that I'm single again, and I've healed a lot over the last couple of years, I am open to the idea of love again. (Limerence looks like it could be a really good trip, as long as the feelings are returned. I wouldn't be bothered if it happened to me. I don't think it's very likely, but it could happen.)

*Actually, I'm an ever-hopeful romantic. 🥰

[STEM_Dad in reply to STEM_Dad]

Stavros_

MORE ABOUT LIMERENCE

Limerence is a powerful thing to experience.

Neurologically, it has been associated with high levels of dopamine and low levels of serotonin. I think that the combination of the two factors is what makes the limerent drive so intense the limerent person feels an intense longing to be with their LO.

• I've heard this intense longing described as "ecstasy when they are together [with their limerent object], and agony when they are apart". {quote from Dr. Joe Beam, a relationship expert who has actually experienced limerence}

But the significance of limerence goes well beyond neurochemistry.

~~~~~

MY OWN OPINION

I think that people with ADHD might be more prone to limerence than other people are, because of two factors:

• First, because we naturally gravitate towards dopamine-seeking behaviors, since dopamine meets a need that we have. (After all, ADHDers are more prone to addiction or risk-taking behaviors for the same reason.)

• Second, because we are also very prone to hyperfocus...and anyone who has been in love can surely admit that the feeling definitely makes it very easy to hyperfocus on that special someone for us.

I believe that the attraction that we have to a potential partner is designed into us. Attraction is what brings two people together, to become a couple. I think that romance grew out of this natural capacity.

..........

When one person is limerent for another, but the feelings are not mutual (i.e. "unrequited love"), it can be tremendously difficult.

• This has been said to actually prolong limerence.

When their LO is affectionate in return, it can be very rewarding. (I've even heard it likened to being like a spiritual experience.) When both are limerent for each other, it's especially powerful. (To an outsider looking in, it can appear to be a sort-of shared insanity...or maybe that's just my experience, as a witness to it.)

..........

I see limerence as being potentially very beneficial in a couple of ways

NEW LOVE: It can help two single people to very quickly bond emotionally, in order for them to start building the foundation for a lasting, committed relationship.

• (In general, relationships don't last when one or the other partner isn't fully committed. As with building a house, the best time to build the foundation in a relationship is in the beginning.)

SECOND CHANCE AT LOVE: It might also help someone to get over the grief of a relationship that has come to an end, and to form a new attachment.

• (After all, it's not healthy to live the rest of your life grieving for someone. I think that this capacity can help especially with people who are widows/widowers, but that's just my opinion.)

~~~~~

HOW DOES SOMEONE GET OVER LIMERENCE?

1) The simplest and most obvious way: to become a couple with the LO.

• Limerence tends to fade very quickly after that.

2) Transfer limerence to someone else. (If limerent for someone who is not available or isn't interested in a relationship, this is the easiest way to end the feelings.)

3) Wait it out. (Limerence always ends. It might take a few years.)

4) [As suggested by some research, a strong dose of SSRI medication might greatly reduce the length of time. I haven't found this research yet, but it was mentioned in a podcast that I've listen to by someone whom I believe to be a credible source. Since limerence has been found to bring about low serotonin levels and depression can result from unrequited love, I think this makes sense.]

[Stavros_ in reply to STEM_Dad]

That may explain why i was having these frequent panic attacks... But also i dont remember feeling agony when i was away from him or extasy when i was with him... the most clear emotions where happiness, jealousy, sadness and feeling overall calm and safe.

[STEM_Dad in reply to Stavros_]

Those are definitely normal feelings to have when in love with someone.

I believe panic attacks are a form of that agony that was mentioned.

When my ex-wife was in limerence for someone else, she had frequent panic attacks when she couldn't be in contact with him. (It was a long-distance affair, so she would be texting or calling him frequently. When he was sleeping or working, or otherwise needed some time to himself, she was very obviously in agony. The minute she heard from him, she seemed to suddenly FORGET all that turmoil she had been going through for hours...she seemed suddenly very happy. Her behavior was very much like an addict, indeed.)

If you were experiencing it as powerfully as she was, you also might have forgotten the negative effects, thanks to the positive ones.

(Note: this is also a normal human capacity, just like how a mother goes through a lot of pain and discomfort during childbirth, but forgets the pain as soon as she can hold her baby. Pleasure helps us to forget pain.)

To help yourself, try doing things that you enjoy that don't remind you of him.

[Stavros_ in reply to STEM_Dad]

It definately feel like an addiction know that i think more clearly, and thinking about that person and making all the scenarios is like trying to get your fix of dopamine, even though it's painfull sometimes.

[STEM_Dad in reply to Stavros_]

Something that just came to mind that I have learned about getting over limerence:• It's (usually) necessary to cut off all contact.

If you don't, then anytime you reestablish contact, the limerence might wake back up from a dormant state. Then, you might experience all the longing again.

(If you end up transferring limerence onto someone else, then it would finally end for this one person. Eventually, limerence does finally come to an end. It can take a very long time if you have intermittent contact with the person you're in limerence with.)

[Stavros_ in reply to STEM_Dad]

I have though about that but, i dont want to avoid any contact with an actual good friend because of some stupid feelings. I belive there is so much more to this connection other than love/ limerence and i dont want to loose that.

I think the best way to fight limerence is to

First, understand it, understand how it works analyse it and see how it affects you. Before i found out about adhd i would just blame myself and think i was lazy and stupid but then when i understood it and put a label on it, it helped much more only by that. That happened too when i heard the term limerence.

Secondly, go to a therapist

Accept that the pain might never leave..... i know it sounds bad, but what doesnt kill you makes you stronger.

Never loose hope, meet other people, as friends and or as romantic parteners.

That's how i have been dealing it with since i knew it was limerence.

[apersonwith]

Stavros, thanks for sharing your story and bringing awareness to these phenomena. I wanted to better understand what you are saying because the interplay between strong romantic emotions and ADHD emotional dysregulation is something I want to be cautious about. I look back at previous relationships and can see similarities to what you said.

These articles were helpful. additudemag.com/limerence-a... and nytimes.com/2024/01/27/styl...

Some things I think I learned from reflecting on this is that I made a lot of mistakes in relationships when I was younger, because I thought the only relationships that mattered, or were "the real thing," were the ones that had these very intense emotions that you describe. They feel meaningful and profound, maybe once in a lifetime, and yet they are inherently unstable. The grand passion which limerance brings to the table may be seductive, and may also be what energises the relationship and carries it along, but not sustainably. When we think someone is out-of-this-world fabulous then of course we feel elevated by their affection and approval. After a pattern of many such relationships I am now much more comfortable with calmness and stability. Maybe it turns out this is where you find the authentic "real thing" after all.

[STEM_Dad in reply to apersonwith]

It's certainly been my observation that the couples who have lasting love have built their relationship on commitment and trust. My parents and my paternal grandparents have been great models of that, and that's how I was on my side of the relationship in my marriage.

There's a famous model called the Triangular Theory of Love, which was developed by psychologist Robert Steinberg. The three parts of the triangle are Intimacy (meaning Openness), Passion, and Commitment.

The model suggests that the following are the types of love between two people:

• Liking/Friendship (Intimacy only)

• Infatuated love (Passion only; e.g. "Puppy Love")

• Empty love (Commitment only)

• Romantic love (I & P)

• Companionate love (I & C)

• Fatuous love (P & C)

• Consummate love (all three)

{I think that "Empty love" is a terrible label. I would rename it to "Committed love". --- There were some times that I felt committed without having any other connection, but I can tell you for certain that the sort of Committed love that I experienced is anything but "empty". I think it can be as strong as the other aspects, more stable, and longer lasting. --- Still, it's better to have all three than any other combination.}

[apersonwith in reply to STEM_Dad]

Thanks this is very interesting and helpful. It gets to the heart of the matter, pardon the pun, because ADHDers may not always connect with reality when emotions pull us away from objectivity. This might also be the case for rejection sensitivity, or procrastinating about a task because we feel that its too much to even start it. Knowing and accepting reality is what I take from this.

[STEM_Dad in reply to apersonwith]

I love puns! (And "dad jokes", too! 😆)

Well, we do know that emotional dysregulation is often an issue for us. But I see love as so much more than emotions. Our emotions do have a great impact on how we experience love and how we are affected by the love we feel.

.....

Personally, after being married to someone who often seemed super-normal and had to grow up too soon, I would be very open to seeing what it would be like to be in a relationship with someone more like me...an ADHDer who is somewhat prone to flights of fancy.

I'm the Inattentive-Daydreamer type of ADHDer, but I've always found myself drawn to women who are Impulsive and also prone to flights of fancy.

What's the point of living in just a boring world where you have to be adulting all the time? It's okay to stay in touch with your inner-child, and to let feelings drive you now and again... especially the exciting, loving feelings!

I'd love to be in love with someone who is as in love with the idea of being in love as I am (and who loves me, likewise)!

[apersonwith in reply to STEM_Dad]

I think that for all of the relationships that we encounter on our journeys, as we become wiser we also become more true to ourselves. As we get to know ourselves better, we have more clarity about what we really want. And experience gives us more clarity about the likely consequences of getting what we want, whether or not it will work, or if it might become toxic. At the same time, we don't want to fall into the trap of being too cautious or even avoidant!

[Stavros_]

I'm going to write it here too as a seperate comment.

I have though about distancing myself from that person but, i dont want to avoid any contact with an actual good friend because of some stupid feelings. I belive there is so much more to this connection other than love/ limerence and i dont want to loose that. We still talk and he still is someone i trust and have a mutual understanding, something that is very rare to find.

I think the best way to fight limerence is to:

First, understand it, understand how it works analyse it and see how it affects you. Before i found out about adhd i would just blame myself and think i was lazy and stupid but then when i understood it and put a label on it, it helped much more only by that. That happened too when i heard the term limerence.

Secondly, go to a therapist.

Accept that the pain might never leave..... i know it sounds bad, but what doesnt kill you makes you stronger.

Never loose hope, meet other people, as friends and or as romantic parteners.

That's how i have been dealing it with since i knew it was limerence (still trying to find time to go to a therapist, but it's on the list).