OK so I am back about the vitamin B's we need and have been doing some reading up on the particular ones that could be more beneficial to someone like me with the severe anxiety issues.
I have read several papers specifically relating to B6 as being extremely beneficial for anxiety sufferers along with B12 and Folate. Before the internet was invented I used to take a small dose over the counter B6 many many years ago to help with my pmt and it was recognised back in those days as helping anxiety.
The following papers refer to participants taking "high dose" B6 and which made a difference but high dose (as we all know) can be toxic, but at what dose can you get toxic and the time period? As usual when you Google there is conflicting advice on the advised maximum dosage. Opinions seem to vary from 10mg - 100mg! WebMD says 100mg is safe, whereas other reputable sites I have popped onto say otherwise.
In this paper participants were given a B6 dose of 100mg (which in my opinion is pretty high) but taken for a short period for the study, I wouldn't think you would go toxic. I need something long term and steady
So there IS plenty of evidence that B6 can help reduce anxiety/depression in many but the question now is, if taken daily, what would be a safe dose?
As I haven't had my B's in around 2-3 weeks I need to get my act together and find something more suitable for ME, as the Seeking Health one I have been taking for years is obviously far too high in dosage for me as only recently realised from other posts I have been reading on here. prnt.sc/2SY1vcuYV0Q0
I have currently decided to take my Folate and B12 separately at the same dosage as in my Seeking Health (screenshot) and possibly a separate B6.
If I take a separate B6 I have found these two options :-
Which B6 (dosage) would be better and safer to take? I am assuming I still need to balance all my B's so found a low dose complex that might be less stimulating to me than the Seeking Health biocare.co.uk/methyl-b-comp...
So if taking that route of separating certain B's, how best would it be to take them? And yes before you ask I have read the B Complex thread
Monday - B12, Folate, B6
Tuesday - b complex
Wednesday - B12, Folate, B6
Thursday - b complex ......................and so on
OR
B12, Folate and B6 say 5 days a week and the complex twice a week?
The whole thing is a complete minefield I know but I would be interested to hear of everyone's elses experiences/trial and errors/journey in finding the right one for them and how they dose
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Jefner
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Jefner, I took 50mg b6 (p5p) for a few months and was feeling nerve prickles in my face so did a blood test. Found I was way over range. So I would suggest caution.
For me meditation, 10 mins every morning has worked wonders, but I realise it’s not for everyone.
Jefner, I empathize with your anxiety issues which are familiar. People with better knowledge than me have shared views on the Bs. Just wanted to say that meditation has become a great tool for me too. You don't necessarily need to meditate in the morning, try it any time of the day. Also, I would recommend using a guided meditation so that the voice occupies your mind. I use the Insight Timer App which has a great selection, many of which are free.
thanks so much for the Insight Timer app recommendation. I had never heard of it and just downloaded it. I was looking for something to help me get back into my meditation practice and this is perfect. Really appreciate the tip!
Im not saying that B6 deficiency isn’t the culprit but try not not to get fixated on it because you could miss other reasons for the anxiety. have you looked into your adrenal health? Quite common for us to have “deranged” cortisol levels. I get anxiety when I stop my adrenal support or when thyroid replacement isn’t enough and I start to feel undermedicated or both! Still haven’t worked out the difference between my undermedicated anxiety or adrenal anxiety but when I have it I tweak my doses
it's been going on every day since 2015 and I just never found the root cause. My morning cortisol from my last few blood tests are OK but I haven't yet got my T3 optimal which I am working on. It's just it got more severe a few weeks ago and I don't know why and yes I get fixated on things because I live in fear every day and I just want it to go away
I understand how easy it is to get fixated, especially when panicking and looking for answers, I’ve done it but there could be several other reasons for anxiety
My morning cortisol from my last few blood tests are OK but I haven't yet got my T3 optimal
Your answer may well lie in getting your FT3 optimal. As I said, being undermedicated causes me anxiety but it’s not the same for everyone. Others feel anxious when overmedicated
A morning cortisol level isn’t enough to give the information required to ascertain an adrenal issue. For that you’d need a proper saliva cortisol test which requires 4-6 samples of saliva collected over the course of your day. From waking to going to bed and everything in between. It’s a nuisance and expensive but if budget allows worth it. How do you sleep? Cortisol and other adrenal hormones can really disrupt it
More informed members will know of other ways of working out adrenal status that don’t involve a big spend. Paul Robinson has written quite extensively on it I believe but I’ve not read much of his work
i had a couple of those done a few years ago. it's just very very frightening living like this every day and I just want to find answers that's all. I layed off googling and reading stuff a long while back until the B complex subject popped up recently and I realised that I had been on the same strength for too many years and in fact those dosages may well have been too high for me and causing more anxiety, but which B could be the problem I don't know, so I am now stressed in finally a suitable alternative.
Yes, it must be difficult and of course you’re in that cycle of worry and anxiety and probably feeling dreadful
Keep an open mind and see what other suggestions come up
You said you’re not interested in meditation but I honestly believe discovering breathing exercises was a huge factor when all this started and I actually thought I was going mad. Like you I couldn’t settle to it and thought it a waste of time but I began taking yoga classes and the instructor was big on breathing. I’ve never looked back and use it all the time now
i did yoga 3 times a week until Covid and keep telling myself to get back into it at home but just no motivation and with the agoraphobia my class is further away since I moved home. I am definitely in that worry and anxiety cycle and being totally alone I just can't seem to break it. That's why I look for support on here because I am completely alone, isolated, no friends, family or support around me but try not to post very often because I am considered a nuisance and I feel no-one really likes me anyway because it's usually the same story with me and a lot seem to think the key to my anxiety is mainly due to my low FT3 BUT I have had anxiety issues on and off for most of my life, so it can't solely be down to that. Things were absolutely fine for a few years until I hit perimenopause, thyroid issues and then I found out I had Hashi's back in 2015 when the anxiety came back with such severity and has never left me since and I have been looking for answers ever since.
My first cortisol test back in 2016 came back with mega high waking readings which is when I consulted with a private Endo who did various scans on me and after spending a lot of money with him, he ended up telling me to go home and get my stress levels down in a nutshell. That was around the time when I became really obsessed in learning all about my thryoid (which I knew nothing about before) and the Hashi's etc. Working with two FD's, lots of tests only to discover gut/mouth candida overgrowth, SIBO and mold exposure. Worked on different protocols with diet and supplements to get rid until the money ran out. Who knows, after all this time I may still have the issues
A further saliva test sometime after that and much better levels. I just gave up reading on stuff in the end because it became too overwhelming; I had tried everything and nothing worked so felt I had to accept I am going to be this way for the rest of my days. Wasn't too bad until the start of this year when my anxiety and other symptoms were beyond extreme. I had planned to test my thyroid in January but two pharmacies cocked up twice with my meds and I had to restabilise on them before I could accurately test which took me to July when I discovered that I was overmedicated and which explained the additional nasty symptoms. Has taken until July in tweaking my Levo twice to get my FT4 to a better level as shown on my September results and I was starting to feel a little better for about a week or so and then anxiety got worse again and I couldn't figure out why although as I said it kind of tied in with my having dental issues with a lot of fear attached knowing I needed to get it attended to let alone pick up the phone and make an appointment, and also around that time I stopped my B Vits as I was looking for a lower dose so it could be tied into the additional stress of the dental issues OR my my B12, and especially my Folate levels have dropped too low being off them.
My sleeping habits are pretty poor which I am trying to change. Where I live I had to tolerate 5-6days a week of awful building works noise for 3 yrs and being agoraphobic I just had to deal with it as I couldn't go anywhere to get away from it. I changed my sleeping patterns to around 3am in sleeping and waking at around midday. By doing that I would only tolerate the noise for around 4hrs a day instead of from 8.30am. I am still in that pattern unfortunately because my anxiety usually wears off late at night and I can feel pretty well so I stay up late to make the most of it because I know when I wake up I will feel like hell as I usually do every day. Last couple of nights I have been going to bed say an hour earlier so working on it, plus the clocks move this weekend so hopefully that will help. doesn't help though having a cat that doesn't play much and then wants to play when I need to go to bed. She needs to move her sleeping patterns along with me as it's hindering it all for me
Sorry for the long post but it's so nice to have someone to talk to; I am usually left in my own irrational thoughts and head all day and every day. Many say to me I am a strong woman due to what I have dealt with over the last few years but I feel like a frightening child tbh, and very frightened I am just not gonna make it
I’m not qualified to say anything much beyond what I’ve just said except you say you feel well late at night. Could that be because your cortisol has declined enough by then and your melatonin has kicked in. Who knows? I hope someone who knows better than me will come along soon and comment
Speaking of melatonin, it was a great help to me when my insomnia was at its worst
Happy to catch up now and again if it helps. Feeling frightened and alone must be extremely difficult and I’m sorry you have to endure that
I’m so sorry you’re going though all this - I understand anxiety and know how dreadful it is - unless you have suffered it you just cannot imagine the torture . Are you taking any medication for it ? I have found relief more or less with the antidepressants I have taken for years now and in combination with T3 I am well . Don’t despair - you will get better .
The following papers refer to participants taking "high dose" B6 and which made a difference but high dose (as we all know) can be toxic, but at what dose can you get toxic and the time period?
Before I ever started learning about the thyroid and nutrients I decided to take a B Complex product from Holland & Barrett. (This was about 2009 or 2010.) I don't think they still sell it (which is good, because it was a terrible supplement) but it was called B100 or something like that and every B vitamin was included at a 100mg or 100mcg dose. I had peripheral neuropathy before I started the supplement.
As far as I can remember I was taking this supplement for about 3 - 4 months before I realised the peripheral neuropathy had gone away. I kept on taking it for about another 4 - 6 months then the peripheral neuropathy started up again. Luckily it was the only supplement I took at the time so it didn't take long to research it and discover that vitamin B6 is the only B vitamin I've read about that potentially can become toxic at high doses, so I gave it up immediately.
Over about 3 or 4 months the peripheral neuropathy went away on its own. I didn't take a B Complex again for several years after that, but by the time I did take one I had learned a lot and bought a much better quality product.
are you recommending to stay away from the B6 then and just stick to my B12 and Folate and forget about the other B's? Now i understand more about the B's I wished I hadn't stayed on the Seeking Health ones for the years I did. My FD at the time put me on them and after I couldn't afford to see her anymore I just carried on taking them every day thinking it was OK when in fact I may well have done untold damage to myself
they are good levels except for the Niacin which I think might have been making me too stimulated. tbh. Instead of supplementing again with all my B's I am tempted to do a blood test on my B's to see where they lie naturally. It has always been said to test before supplementing. I remember lots of people recommending I go on Selenium because of my Hashi's and I read that you can go toxic so I tested via my GP and my levels came out just slightly over range so I never added that to my regime and just have a few brazil nuts
The thinking is by only supplementing some of the B's it knocks the others out of whack, the niacin content is per 2 capsules so just one would suffice... If you take "a few brazil nuts" then you are possibly getting more than the RDA so no no need to supplement as well
are you recommending to stay away from the B6 then and just stick to my B12 and Folate and forget about the other B's?
No. I'm just mentioning something that worked to reduce my anxiety. If your iron and ferritin are already optimal and your anxiety hasn't been helped, then the info I've given is not helpful to you.
ferritin is optimal but on last result in September Folate not so good. Both results are when I stopped my B's a few days before so I clearly need them but wondering what the optimal level in the range would be for my Folate?
Clearly need my B12 as well because within my complex the dose was only 50mcg
July 2024 - Active B12 94 37.5 - 150 pmol/L - stopped 3-4 days before testing
Sept 2024 Active B12 114 37.5 - 150 pmol/L - stopped 3-4 days before testing
My B12 results show quite a drop from previous results when I tested and was still supplementing and not knowing I had to stop a few days before. All my previous results put my B12 well over range and that's only on a 50mcg dose ( in the 600 & 700's and sometimes 800's, so maybe I should stay on that dose
I don't know of any "official" optimal for folate. Personally I aim for 20 micrograms/L.
I always take methylfolate supplements, I never take folic acid.
This is just my theory (based on the link I've given further on in this reply) that the NHS reference range for folate (8.83 - 60.8) is so high because it is based on patients taking 5mg i.e. 5000mcg folic acid per day. Since about half the global population is unable to metabolise folic acid very well, it stays in the bloodstream rather than getting used, and this is why the range is so high.
This link describes the problem :
Title : The extremely slow and variable activity of dihydrofolate reductase in human liver and its implications for high folic acid intake
Thank you HumanBean - can you share the better product you found? If it’s against the rules would you mind sharing it with me privately? I’d really appreciate it
The B Complex products I've taken that I've found helpful are :
Thorne Basic B Complex.
Pros : It contains all the B vitamins in their active form meaning that they are absorbed well. Recommended dose is 1 a day.
Cons : It has become extortionately expensive in recent years, so I can no longer afford it.
.
Igennus Super B
Pros : It contains all the B vitamins in their active form meaning that they are absorbed well. Recommended dose is 2 a day, and there is nothing stopping you taking only 1 a day to make it stretch further.
Cons : None.
.
Other brands I haven't tried but they have been recommended by others :
Pink Tribe
Yipmai
.
The best B Complex products contain the active vitamin Bs that require no conversion in the body before they can be absorbed and useful to the body.
The active version of Vitamin B9 (Folic Acid) is actually Methylfolate. Avoid Folic Acid.
I know nothing about the product they are recommending in that link, I buy other brands of B Complex.
.
I also take extra B12 and B9 on top of a B Complex, and I only buy them in the form Methylcobalamin and Methylfolate.
A method I use for buying separate supplements like Methylcobalamin and Methylfolate and saving money is I buy high dose products and only take them once or twice a week.
.
Just a personal anecdote...
When I first started doing what I could to improve my thyroid health and my nutrients I found it difficult to tolerate quite a few of them. I have now optimised as many nutrients as I've had tested, and my thyroid, for quite a long time now. Optimising nutrient and thyroid has actually improved my tolerance of quite a lot of things, and so I have been able to buy cheaper products in the last few years. Whether this happens for other people, I really don't know.
Jumping in here humanbean😍.. I just had this conversation with my gp yesterday, she rang me in relation to my last thyroid bloods ( I've been on ndt you may have seen my posts I'm doing great gut and stomach wise no awful side effects like the t4 and t3 synthetic gave me).
But my gp urged me to go back on T4 levo with a regime of peppermint oil and lactate enzyme one hour before I take the levo🫣, she didn't seem to care my son paid £178 for this ndt prescription, I just remained on the ndt from July 18th didn't do the silly regime she suggested got my thyroid bloods back and she was all a glow, taking the medal for the thyroid bloods looking good..😂 I'm afraid I had to burst her little bubble by telling her the thyroid blood results were me taking ndt, I'd not done the regime you suggested.
Anyway I'll get on to the Bs I mentioned minerals and vitamins being crucial to good thyroid hormones , and that my B12 was 312 on the last test some 2 years ago and that it had not been done since, along with a list of minerals and vitamins that should be done.
She looked over my bloods and noticed my parathyroid hormone was over range " yes I know I said, I do have primary hyperparathyroidism "
She as only agreed to vitamin D being done , no other minerals and vitamins 🤦♀️now I know if my vit d comes back as deficient they will prescribe that awful vit d either the brilliant blue the yellow or red, which I just couldn't stomach 🤮 obviously she's not going to give me any B12 as she's refused the test and told me I couldn't have B12 injections 🤷♀️ but what B12 and vit d can I take as I have awful gut problems on all vits I've tried , and spend a lot of money on them💁♀️
If 5000 iU per day is too much for you then reduce the number of days per week that you take the product until the average dose per day is close to what you are looking for.
It contains only Vitamin D3, Olive Oil, and a gelatin capsule. As a result of the gelatine capsule it isn't suitable for vegetarians, and the vitamin D3 is probably sourced from lanolin from sheep's wool.
Vitamin D3 can also be sourced from lichen, and I doubt very much that that form of D3 is sold with a gelatine capsule! I've never tried a D3 supplement sourced from lichen myself but I know such products exist.
Vitamin D needs to be taken with Vitamin K2 and Magnesium. It helps the body to absorb the Vitamin D3 into the bones and teeth rather than end up lining the arteries.
A quote from a post by SeasdieSusie :
Magnesium - this helps the body convert D3 into it's usable form. There are many different forms of magnesium so it's important to choose the right one for you.
Vit K2-MK7 - when taking D3 it aids the absorption of calcium from food and Vit K2-MK7 directs calcium to bones and teeth where it's needed and away from soft tissues and arteries where it can become deposited and cause problems such as kidney stones, calcification of arteries, etc. Anyone who takes blood thinners should do some research before taking Vit K2-MK7 as there is conflicting information about whether or not it is contraindicated. Vit K1 is the blood clotting form and should be avoided when taking blood thinners, but there are some articles that say Vit K2 should be avoided as well, it could be that the authors of those articles are confusing the two forms of Vit K but do look into it if you take blood thinners.
Thank you humanbean for the link, I've to take my ndt out of the capsules because they contain gelatine, I don't get on with capsules even paracetamol ones🙈
I was advised that when taking a vitamin B complex, to ensure it contained no more than 10mg and to have a 2 month break after every 4 months of taking them, to avoid possible B6 toxicity. There are brands that do B complexes with no B6 if you're keen to keep on top of the rest during the break. I myself take a separate folate tablet as the standard 400mg dose isn't enough for me to maintain decent levels.
Sorry to hear you are still struggling. I totally understand. I have a pretty similar regime to you with the B12 and folate. I too read about B6 helping with anxiety, and I had been looking at dosages. Always remembering to start low & slow. On Amazon you can purchase vegan brand 10mg for around £7. They are tablets so could split them and start very low. I know the studies they took high dosage but that may not suit everyone and I can’t imagine everyone in the trial had hypothyroidism. We have other things going on that may interfere in how we absorb certain supplements. I plan to order today. The only other supplement I take is vitamin D but not every day. Recent bloods show my B12 and folate was over half in range. Think it’s better to try individual supplements as you can have more control. I would give anything to rid myself of this anxiety so I understand why you are thinking of trialing this. Take care
I posted a couple of weeks ago re a paper I read 50 years ago whilst working in a large MH hospital that a female psychiatrist in London gave monthly B6 injections (can't remember the dose) to her female patients who suffered serious psychological impact during menstrual cycles and it had miraculous effect on those patients! I am a great believer in the B's and esp B6!
Hi there - I really believe in the B vitamins having experienced much stress over many many years they were a life saver. B6 is a dopamine enhancer - low dopamine can cause depression and can be implicated in Parkinson's Disease too. Taking too high a dose such as 100 mg could or would overload the adrenal glands which are also the recipients for the B vitamins and would produce adrenaline instead of a calming effect ! B5 I used to use to keep cortisol levels down and keep me calm but..........I am now on steroids and tried this the other day and it took down my steroid medication which was dangerous for me - so physiology has now changed but they still did their job - took down my cortisol levels !
I have pulled together some information for you regarding natural dopamine enhancers and hope you find it useful – the only products I recommend are Nature’s Best and I can recommend B6 50 mg and it has changed my energy levels and I have used it for my husband’s symptoms of low dopamine in relation to PD and it has helped enormously. The other B product I take alongside the B6 is their B complex the lower dose one which is just called B complex not the higher dose ones – so I take the B6 and B12 100 ug as an add on as levels in the complex are quite low. B6 can be taken safely although as someone has suggested you can stop it every so many months but it is not the 'big baddy' as stated on occasions.
Benefits of Vitamin B on Your Mental Health
While B vitamins are essential for maintaining your bodily function, they can also improve your mental health and well-being. This is is why it's important to maintain healthy levels of vitamin B on a daily basis.
B vitamins impact your energy production, DNA/RNA synthesis, and repair, and the synthesis of neurochemicals and signalling molecules, among other aspects of the brain. This is why maintaining adequate levels of vitamin B is necessary for psychological and neurological functioning.2
Benefits of Vitamin B on Your Mental Health
While B vitamins are essential for maintaining your bodily function, they can also improve your mental health and well-being. This is is why it's important to maintain healthy levels of vitamin B on a daily basis.
Benefits of Vitamin B
Here's how vitamin B helps support mental wellness:
• Boosts energy levels: B vitamins help convert food into energy.9
National Institutes of Health. Office of Dietary Supplements. Pantothenic Acid.
• Supports healthy brain function: Vitamin B6, B9, and B12 contribute to homocysteine metabolism, which can reduce the risk of cognitive decline and dementia.10
• Improves mood: Vitamin B6, in particular, is involved in the synthesis of neurotransmitters involved in the regulation of mood.11
• Alleviates stress: There is some research that B vitamins are associated with certain measures of reduced stress.
Magnesium and its antidepressant qualities are still not fully understood, but there is evidence that magnesium deficiency may contribute to decreased dopamine levels and an increased risk of depression.
What’s more, one study showed that supplementing with magnesium boosted dopamine levels and produced antidepressant effects in (31Trusted Source).
Can I ask what you are already taking i.e. including meds as it seems you are producing too much adrenaline which can even happen with HRT and Vitamin C.
How does one become optimal with their T3 and not become Hyperthyroid? That's where I am. I take Benzodiazapines for anxiety otherwise I'd be an alcoholic. They are meant to be short term if your Psych is paying attention. Long-term use is addictive. Anxiety is a beast and so is this Thyroid disease.
Depends on your definition of 'hyper'. If you just mean having a low tsh, then you can't, because that's what T3 does: it suppresses the tsh.
But having a suppressed TSH does not automatically mean you're hyper. Having an extremely high FT3 means you're hyper. In which case your T3 would not be optimal.
Have you tried Bach's Rescue Remedy for anxiety. That's not addictive.
i am in the same place as you conny, anxiety is debilitating and got worse recently and still trying to work out why. I am living on Diazepam, only thing keeping me from jumping out the window right now
I went through a high anxiety period after President Trump was nearly assassinated in July. I live in Tennessee in the USA. It lasted for a couple of weeks. I believe that I was still on 90mgs of Armour at that time. Then I went for labs at my Endo's office and my TSH came back as "suppressed". (My T3 is in the low end of the range and has been since beginning Armour Thyroid in March of this year.) So the Endo's NP dropped me down to 75 mgs of Armour. Yesterday, at my GP's Thyroid follow up, (I got tired of driving 3 hours round trip to the Endo for them to concentrate only on the TSH) my labs again indicated that my TSH was "suppressed", but my T3 is at the very bottom of the range. My GP called me "Hyper" and "a burned out Hashi patient". I told him that I wanted my RT3 tested and he agreed, amazingly. He knows nothing about the Thyroid. My cholesterol numbers are also through the roof! I cannot take statins due to the muscle pains that they cause, so my GP shot me up with a steroid med which is used for cholesterol control. My head feels as if I'm deep sea diving, and my teeth hurt. But this isn't about me, it's about Jefner. How much Benzo are you taking? There is a time where your body reaches a point where the drug no longer works for you. There's all kinds of Youtube videos about it. I probably watched them all. There is also a Benzo support group which you will run into when you view the videos because they sponsor some of the videos. I hope that you get it worked out. My shrink told me that antidepressants will not work if one's T3 is not in the "range." Maybe it's the same for anxiety. Do you drink a little wine? I know you're not supposed to drink with Benzo's, but I take a glass of wine every night for the heart benefits. It takes the edge off of the anxiety as well.
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Stress B v B Complex
Gentler way to increase B12 Levels?
Gosh: how important it is, to read the labels.
