Waking at 4:30 since starting T3

Hi all, I've tried searching because I'm quite certain I'm not the only one but the search function on HU is dreadful.

Anyway, having had a spate for about 6 weeks of being unwell (covid & flu jabs and then covid). I am now finally feeling a bit more normal except that I have been waking at 4:30 or 5:30 every morning for the last 3/4weeks or so. I had put it down to covid initially but now I'm wondering if its something else.

I started taking T3 3/4weeks ago. (Doses changed from 50mcg Levo, 105 Erfa to 50mcg levo, 60 NDT, 10mcg T3.)

Has anyone else noted sleep disturbances or changes since taking T3?

[pennyannie]

Hello Witchinghour :

So am I right in thinking you have dropped 1/2 grain Efra which is about 4mcg T3 + 17.50mcg T4 and added in 10 mcg T3 ?

What time of day/night do you take this new dose - same times as before ?

I think T3 is likely having more of an immediate effect than NDT/T4 :

[Hidden in reply to pennyannie]

Dropped 3 quarters of a grain, but otherwise yes.

I take it all at bedtime, now. I did split the doses for a few months but found it too restrictive. So, yes, I've changed that too!!

[pennyannie in reply to Hidden]

Oh, sorry - so you have dropped around 6 mcg T3 and 26mcg T4 - and replaced with 10 mcg T3 ;

I take my NDT - 1 + 1/2 grains at around 3.00 am to try and dovetail in with the circadian rhythm of the body and wake at around 2/3 hours later which is why I'm here waiting for it to become light !!

Yes, likely the T3 acting faster than the NDT and T4 - maybe we could start up an early dawn club - what about taking it all a bit later in the night - at a toilet break ?

[Hidden in reply to pennyannie]

I very rarely wake in the night, I tried setting an alarm for awhile but it just upset the rest of the household. 😅Looks like I either need to split the dose or take it in the morning.

[pennyannie in reply to Hidden]

Oh, there is no point in waking yourself up if naturally your body wants to be asleep :

I'm of an age - 75 - where my bladder rather than an alarm clock suggests I need a toilet break and it's generally around 4 hours after going bed = which I do at around 10 pm.

The jumping into spring and BSTime does mess things up a little:

No one needs additional anxiety.

So we are looking at 50 T4 + 10 T3 and 1 grain NDT - taken all at bedtime ?

Why not take the NDT at night and the T3/T4 combo in the morning ?

[Hidden in reply to pennyannie]

So we are looking at 50 T4 + 10 T3 and 1 grain NDT - taken all at bedtime ?

Correct!

I think, you're right. I probably need to switch back to split doses. It just gets in the way of my morning cuppa. 😆

Thank you for brainstorming with me.

[pennyannie in reply to Hidden]

No worries - at least try :

The T3/T4 ratio in the NDT is around a 1/4 ratio T3/T4 :

The synthetic T3/T4 combo is a straight 1/5 ratio - so it will be interesting to see if you notice any difference, you shouldn't but nothing is that straight forward when talking hormones.

I'm late today as I forced myself to stay awake and rewatch Happy Valley.

I went to bed at 11.30 and woke at 1.00 am for a wee and then again at 4.30 so then I took my NDT and woke up at around 7 am - so confused my body clock a bit, but it was a one off and worth it but I feel a bit slow this morning !!

Have you ever considered NDT only ?

I felt a bit turbo charged when I tried a synthetic T3 / T4 combo and made myself unwell ?

[SlowDragon Administrator]

when are you currently taking T3

Try splitting T3 …taking 5mcg at bedtime and 5mcg early morning…..when you wake up

It might improve sleep

[humanbean]

Taking T3 at bedtime might affect your cortisol.

High or low cortisol can effect sleep and awakening. Cortisol has a circadian rhythm and the body will increase output in order to start your day - but too little or too much can make that happen at the wrong times, and 4am - 6am is a classic time for early wakening when cortisol levels aren't right for you.

It's the basis of Paul Robinson's CT3M method of treating thyroid patients with T3. I think his main focus is on low cortisol, but he probably has some info on high cortisol too.

paulrobinsonthyroid.com/

[Hidden in reply to humanbean]

This is very interesting. I didn't make a note of the dates because I thought it was a covid thing but shortly after I started taking t3 there were a couple of nights I woke up sweating and anxious, despite the room being cold. I've also spent the last 3 weeks feeling uneasy/anxious.

I'll look at Paul's methods, thank you.

[TiggerMe Ambassador]

I have found that I sleep deeper the first half of the night since introducing T3 and lighter in the second half which I think is kinda normal, if I wake at 4am I often read for half an hour then nod off again, I find that I haven't adjusted to the clock change yet... but that is always the way, I never feel right until we switch back to BST 😕

[Hidden in reply to TiggerMe]

Pre covid/T3 I would easily sleep 10-7. So waking early is sort of nice; it's something I've never really been able to do.

But 4:30 is just a smidge too early. 😂

Plus, the anxiety that runs alongside is unpleasant.

You're right about the clock change though; I'd forgotten about that.

[TiggerMe Ambassador in reply to Hidden]

Morning, are you in the HRT gang? Your immune system runs on estrogen and will have been using more to fight the infection, I would often wake early in a panic when my levels dropped... I remember a terrible feeling of dread which would haunt me the rest of the day 😕

I found that T4/T3 and HRT bounce off each other and a rise in one needed a rise in the other to keep pace

[Hidden in reply to TiggerMe]

Not yet! I'm only 36 so I hope I'm a way off yet.

Although, suspect it could take me that long to get my thyroid hormones right so I'll just be swapping one set of hormone problems for another at this rate. 😆

It's a real job to figure out which is what. I've been anxious essentially my whole life, which has always been put down to emotional trauma (because there's been plenty of that. It's been about the only consistent thing in my life. 🙈)

But now I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the anxiety is, at least in part, physiological.

For instance, had an awful time of it last week with bloating and loss of appetite and retching. This week has seen the back of that but heartburn has appeared. (We've recently sold our house and moved the kids school which was stressful but not enough to trigger that sort of emotional response, I don't think.)

The anxiety I felt this morning has lifted but I only felt anxious because my stomach was churning. That has passed more or less and I think I feel OK again.

[TiggerMe Ambassador in reply to Hidden]

Sounds like you are asking a lot of yourself, don't underestimate the effects of all the changes you are going through, moving house and kids changing schools is massively stressful as you have little control over how everyone is going to cope, and you are the rock!

Big hugs all round for what you have achieved 🤗🤗 sounds like you are a doer and have over done 😬

I've met plenty of youngsters recently on HRT, it isn't an age thing, much like your thyroid if you just aren't producing enough hormone to keep things ticking over.... it sneaks up on you, looking back I could happily have started supplementing much earlier and would have saved all the issues that come with dropping levels, symptoms are very similar to low thyroid

[Hidden in reply to TiggerMe]

I did have a female hormones test done but couldn't really make sense of it.

GP dismissed it out of hand because "no point testing, hormones fluctuate all the time. Testing is worthless".

Then there is the OCD element to this, for me, and needing to find the answer/ruminating is in play too.

There are a lot of moving parts here. 🤣

[TiggerMe Ambassador in reply to Hidden]

There really are! That's what makes it so individual and hard to pin down, I find this forum brilliant at throwing in another curve ball 🙃

Typical GP response 🙄 yes, they fluctuate but in a cyclical way! The Balance App is good at keeping track of any changes, if that appeals to your OCD itch?

I started T3 4 months ago and find it very fast acting, first split the dose 6am/2pm but felt the lag so then swapped to one dose 6am which was better, think my cellular levels are topped up now so back to splitting at a slightly lower dose.

[Hidden in reply to TiggerMe]

I'm better keeping away from apps like that; when the OCD steps in its torturous. But it would be really helpful to track.

I have been wondering if T3 is right for me but I'm still very early days. It's just hard work to keep tweaking dose and timings and vitamins. I'm 2.5 years past diagnosis and I genuinely believed in the July that I'd be well again by the December... I'm fast approaching my third hypo Christmas. 🥱

Sounds like you are asking a lot of yourself, don't underestimate the effects of all the changes you are going through, moving house and kids changing schools is massively stressful as you have little control over how everyone is going to cope, and you are the rock!

This has given me food for thought this morning, actually. Having endured so much for so long it sort of skews perspective! To me, moving schools was just a thing to do, but perhaps I underestimated it. Thanks for the perspective.

[TiggerMe Ambassador in reply to Hidden]

Think you're on to something there our 'hypo norm' is squiffy, you have had a massive upheaval. Sounds like you and I are quite similar... just another thing on the to do list...

Move house, change schools, change routine, carry everyone else's emotional baggage, recovering from virus (most people say 12 weeks) all the admin that comes with these changes.... all massive even if all positive

Please give yourself 10 minutes to acknowledge what you have achieved, pat on back, meltdown and then like Dr Who regenerate 🤗 and get on with it 😏💃 too much going on to be able to really see just what you need.... first off a deep breath and a little bit of time to settle 🤗

[humanbean]

But now I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the anxiety is, at least in part, physiological.

Just a personal anecdote, but I used to suffer from anxiety (and depression) a lot. It could often get triggered by nothing at all.

Then I started treating my own low iron and ferritin. It took me nearly two years to get my ferritin to mid-range. I can't remember how long through the process it took but one day I realised that I no longer felt anxious in the way I had been before I started taking iron.

I imagine that many people with low levels of vitamins or other minerals might also get anxiety from it because nothing works well when you are deficient in one of the necessary parts of human biochemical functioning. So, low B12 or low folate or low vitamin D or low magnesium or potassium or sodium or selenium or ... could all create depression or anxiety or other issues that won't be visible but are still causing problems. This is why I don't need any convincing that optimal is essential, and just being in range gives a very poor quality of life.