madness of king George. Was it thyroid?

[mandyjane]

I was reading up about George the third the other day, looking at his portraits and it looks clear to me that he had thyroid eye disease and symptoms of hashis. I also wondered about the infamous purple urine and if he might have been drinking loads of iodine that led to thyroid storms. What is odd but typical of the suppression of knowledge re thyroid illness is that nobody else is suggesting it. just thought it was interesting.

[helvella Administrator]

Maybe have a read of:

Thyroid Swelling: A Common Phenomenon in Art?

karger.com/Article/Fulltext...

[greygoose in reply to helvella]

I've also noticed that a lot of female subjects in art have protruding eyes, suggesting Thyroid Eye Disease. But, I've never noticed the two together.

[mandyjane in reply to greygoose]

I suppose big eyes have been fashionable, considered attractive thoughtout the ages in females. I dont think his daughters were portrayed the same way and I lean toward thinking any kind of mania is physical in origen. I just cannot see that disturbed thinking or even trauma can speed up the metabolism in such an extreme and lengthy manner.

[greygoose in reply to mandyjane]

Big eyes, yes. Not bulging eyes. There's a difference. And, of course, right this minute I can't come up with any examples, although I can see the paintings in my head.

I agree with you about mania being of physical origin. But, Porphyria would also be a physical origin. But, I'm like you, I see thyroid problems everywhere!

[HughH in reply to greygoose]

The mania could be myxoedema madness. The bulging eyes are not however associated with hypothyroidism but I find them with thyroid hormone resistance (impaired sensitivity to thyroid hormone), which also causes mental health issues.

I'm also like you, I see thyroid problems everywhere!

[greygoose in reply to HughH]

I wasn't suggesting that King George had bulging eyes. I don't know about that. I was carrying on from helvella's link about goitres in art, and remarked that a lot of women in art have bulging eyes. The two weren't directly connected. Two different threads, there.

But, I do agree that King George could indeed have had myxoedema madness. And was treated with the usual lack of knowledge and ignorance that still surrounds thyroid issues! Nothing changes.

Interesting that you find people with thyroid hormone resistance can also have bulging eyes. Is that still due to antibodies, as with Thyroid Eye Disease? Or is there some other mechanism? I tend to only associate bulging eyes with Grave's.

[HughH in reply to greygoose]

This post started on King George's eyes and then moved to goitres.

I thought that the bulging eyes of Grave's were due to the high T3 rather than the antibodies.

People with thyroid hormone resistance can have high Free T3 levels but hypo symptoms. It is possible that with thyroid hormone resistance the T3 receptors in the eyes work differently and the high Free T3 is the cause of the bulging eyes, but this is only my guess.

[helvella Administrator in reply to HughH]

I thought that the bulging eyes of Grave's were due to the high T3 rather than the antibodies.

I believe not. If it did, you might expect exophthalmos in cases of multinodular goitre which produce too much T3.

TSHR Signaling Stimulates Proliferation Through PI3K/Akt and Induction of miR-146a and miR-155 in Thyroid Eye Disease Orbital Fibroblasts

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Just don't ask me to explain any of that paper! Someone else might understand, but not me.

[greygoose in reply to HughH]

Yes, I know, but I've no idea what King George looked like, so I wasn't talking about him. Sorry if that makes me particularly ignorant. My comment was completely apart, and you replied to my comment. But, thank you for pointing that out.

[Pandora777 in reply to greygoose]

Here is a picture gg

Just to add I am interested in history and have studied it at A level.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg...

[greygoose in reply to Pandora777]

Ahhhh it says there, he was bi-polar. Another sign of hypothyroidism. But, I wouldn't say he had protruding eyes, it looks more like swollen eyelids, and swelling under the eye. Which is more in-line with hypothyroidism. The case for hypo is growing stronger and stronger, mandyjane!

[Noelnoel in reply to greygoose]

I realise this is an old post but there’s currently a documentary on about King George and his madness. Portraits of an older King George with protruding eyes and weight gain, certainly look suspicious

Picture Queen Victoria, she also had protruding eyes and obesity

[greygoose in reply to Noelnoel]

Yes, I've often though Queen Victoria probably had thyroid problems.

Wish I could see the documentary, but I'm not in the UK. Hopefully others will see this, and be able to watch.

[Noelnoel in reply to greygoose]

That’s a shame. It’s a BBC, Lucy Worsley one. Not available in France?

[greygoose in reply to Noelnoel]

No, 'fraid not. Not unless you have satallite, and I don't.

[mandyjane in reply to helvella]

Interesting article. Thanks.

[Barrister]

It was supposedly Porphyria.

[helvella Administrator in reply to Barrister]

But that is also questioned as the blue blood might have been from treatment with gentian rather than a sign of porphyria.

Isn't it fascinating diagnosing from history. We still get it wrong.

[mandyjane in reply to helvella]

I was thinking as I read his symptoms and history that he might be unlikely to fare much better today. He might have had to join this forum to find out what was wrong with him.

[Pandora777]

That is one of my favorite films and I did think he looked a bit like me when I was extremely hyper. I would be up all night on my computer, playing music or ironing etc. I used to keep my husband and son awake with my nocturnal activities. My favorite scene is when he starts running outside and his wife and servants are trying to keep up with him ... it was funny to watch but I can imagine how distressing it was for his wife.

[Angel_of_the_North]

Didn't he have porphyria?

[Angel_of_the_North]

Often people were portrayed in art in a way that wasn't actually accurate - just a stylised way of making them look a certain way that was considered fashionable - a meme really - so you can't be sure

[Pandora777 in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

Yes I agree because some of the women actually looked pregnant but were not because a rounded stomach was found attractive hundreds of years ago.

[LivingWithHT]

Most historical figures look sickly or malnourished to me in their paintings, lol. I don’t know if it’s because of the white powder a lot of them used on their faces back then or if they did not get enough sunshine or if painters were not very good at capturing different features and skin tones so just replicated the same look every time.

Or if people were generally less good looking back then.