As a vegan with osteopoenia I am upset by my GP's refusal to source a vegan supplement (calcium, D3, magnesium + K2 preferably). The NHS will not fund any of the supplements I suggest because they will only fund those the NHS tests for content. That's fair enough, but can anyone tell me how to find out what other vegans are prescribed?
There must be thousands of other vegans with this condition and I can't believe none are being treated. I asked if the surgery, GP or pharmacy would contact other NHS providers to find out what they prescribe but they will not. No idea where to even start.
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thyr01d
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I think there is a bone health and a vegan section to health unlocked, so I wonder if you'll get some help there?
My OH has osteoporosis, and was advised against calcium supplements. Something to do with them not actually being absorbed by the bones, but potentially causing kidney stones instead.
Hello Cooper27 and thanks for your helpful reply. I tried to find a bone health section but couldn't so I'll post a question on how to find it.
My previous GP said the same to me about kidney stones, which is why it's necessary to take magnesium with it, but if your OH is not vegan she is probably taking in sufficient calcium and magnesium in her diet.
He was dairy free when diagnosed with osteoporosis, although due to coeliac disease, he has a heightened need for calcium. Despite needing 1.5x the GDA for calcium, being dairy free, and having osteoporosis, he was still advised against calcium supplements.
I think it came from the people that did the DEXA scan, but he double checked with the gastroenterologist, because he was surprised not to be given any medication. All he's been given is D3.
I don't know about bone loss in his teeth - he's not been to the dentist for a few years he's full osteoporosis in the spine, and osteopenia in his hips. The reason they gave for no medication is because they hope he's going to grow out of it.
It's important to make sure you do lots of weight bearing exercise like walking, badminton, maybe some weight training if you have someone that can teach you proper technique.
Someone has very kindly just reminded me why calcium supplements are not recommended: the majority of calcium supplements are calcium carbonate (chalk). Chalk molecules are 100,000 times larger than calcium molecules in food, so our kidneys end up working harder to get rid of the majority of the chalk. Our bodies only absorb a fraction of calcium from calcium carbonate (around 3% if you're you're lucky).
I suppose a natural/food based calcium supplement would work better in this instance.
Thanks Cooper, I think there's a balance to be found here - breaking bones or overworked kidneys? Ideally I suppose one takes enough calcium in the right form to keep the bones strong without overworking the kidneys.
My GP told me years ago that calcium can cause kidney stones if we take too much, I wonder if this is what your reminder meant, or if their knowledge is more up-to-date.
Out of interest U just looked to see which calcium is in my fortified rice milk and that's calcium phosphate, one of my supplements is microcrystalline hydroxyapatite and the other lithothamnium calcareum and here's what Better Bones site has to say:
Calcium comes in many different forms. Even with the other nutrients needed for its absorption, some forms are not as readily absorbed as others. Women often ask me, “What about this or that type of calcium?” With all the different kinds of calcium supplements available, how do you choose, and how should you take them? Use the following points as a guide:
Calcium citrate is a highly absorbable calcium compound. This form does not require the hydrochloric acid (HCl) in the stomach to be absorbed. Thus, calcium citrate is very readily absorbed or bioavailable, and a good choice for people with low stomach acid.
Calcium ascorbate and calcium carbonate are generally not as easily absorbed as the citrate forms if stomach HCl is low. However, they are absorbed quite readily when taken with food.
Generally speaking, all types of calcium are absorbed more easily if taken with meals — no matter what form you choose.
I am sometimes asked my thoughts about microcrystalline hydroxyapatite (MCHC), an interesting calcium-containing substance derived from animal bones. This supplement may have its merits (especially for older people, perhaps, with very low-phosphorus diets, or those who don’t get enough meat or protein — which are not problems for the average American). It is quite costly, its amino acid content varies depending on how it’s processed, it does not contain magnesium, and there are actually few supportive studies on it. So all in all, I do not think microcrystalline hydroxyapatite is “way superior” to other forms of calcium, and perhaps the premium on it may be somewhat misplaced.
I think what I take from it is that you need to get the right type of calcium if it's to work for you. Generic calcium carbonate capsules sound as though they won't work. It's probable this is what the NHS uses, as it'll be cheap, and this will be why they think supplements don't work. If you get something more natural, I think you'll be ok.
To clarify a couple of things you mention, it isn't the NHS that tests vitamins for content, that isn't within its remit. It is the MHRA that is responsible for the regulation of medicines and medical devices. Secondly, it isn't the GPs responsibility to 'source' prescribable treatments, that is the responsibility of the pharmacist and his wholesaler. If, rather than source, you mean identify suitable brands, the GP is guided in his prescribing by the BNF and by MIMS, and whilst he may prescribe a treatment without a UK license, where he considers it most appropriate for a named patient, he's not obliged to do so. I doubt the GP would consider it the practise's responsibility to contact other NHS providers as you suggest, particularly not "just" for vitamin supplements, which aren't generally a priority for Drs. You could ask around your local pharmacists if they or their wholesalers know of vegan-suitable vitamin brands that might be dispensed against an NHS prescription, because they are the interface if you like, between what is available on the market, what the GP wants to prescribe, and what the NHS will pay for (you might need to ask in more than one); and I guess you could ask in any vegan fora that you are a member of, what others are prescribed. I believe The Vegan Society markets its own brand of multi-vits, but multis in general, are advised against for many reasons (for clarity, that doesn't include a B complex, or Vit D/K combinations). I was diagnosed with osteopenia some 10/11 years ago and have never been offered supplements for it, but if I were to take them specifically for that reason, as a non-meat eater I would want the choice to buy my own, focusing on Vit D, magnesium, and Vit K rather than calcium.
Thank-you for your long reply and apologies for not looking up who actually tests supplements for content, as that wasn't central to my post I didn't think I needed to be accurate.
I meant both identify and source.
Perhaps I should have gone into more detail. It's calcium I need because I already take the vitamin D, magnesium and K, paying for them myself. I have symptoms of calcium deficiency including already bone loss from beneath my teeth with the consequence of the risk of losing my teeth (fortunately I have a wonderful dentist and an excellent periodontist), which is why it's the calcium I'm asking about.
As a non-meat eater you will be taking in plenty of calcium in dairy produce but I cannot take in enough.
My consultant has advised against taking vitamins that are not NHS approved.
I get the impression you think I am expecting too much.
Most K2 is made from natto, so all you need to do is check that it is in a veggie capsule. There are loads of bone health supplements that are veggie (eg Life Extension bone restore). Vit D is more of a problem since it tends to be made from lanolin. What about a sun lamp? androv-medical.com/3000-uvb... Bulkpowders.co.uk does a vegan vit D (never tried it)
Thanks AngeloftheNorth but the bone restore doesn't appear to be vegan. I should have written a longer post. I take vitamin D, K2 and magnesium but cannot find a vegan calcium that is 'approved'.
Cytoplan do one made from seaweed. You probably won't get an "approved" one (whatever that means). Calcium carbonate is chalk, so cannot be strictly vegan since chalk is animal skeletons millions of years old. There is a calcium gluconate on Amazon that is vegan (by Biofinest) Do you need extra calcium? Most people don't.
Thank-you greatly Angel of the North and I am perfectly happy to eat the skeletons of creatures that died millions of years ago! I don't know if I need extra calcium but I have osteopoenia and 50% bone loss under one of my teeth. I have other symptom of deficiency, mainly teeth grinding, and after a DEXA scan I was prescribed calcium (non vegan), so I think I do. I wonder if the teeth grinding is nature's way - I am definitely 'bone loading'!
The replies on here have made me wonder if I should seek advice from my dentist or periodontist, both have been marvellous, and they might even be more knowledgeable than GPs.
Something you might want to look into is fulvic acid/humic acid minerals, if they're available in the UK. They're vegan (plant based) & a natural source of minerals. Only organic minerals are utilized properly. It's inorganic minerals that cause problems. There are other minerals like boron that are needed to build bone.
Thanks G2G2, kind of you to make the suggestion. I have just 'googled' humic acid and it's contraindicated for people with thyroid problems and autoimmune problems and I have an autoimmune thyroid condition so that's not for me. I am ok for boron, it's in plenty of vegan foods, it's the calcium that's scarce.
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he's full osteoporosis in the spine, and osteopenia in his hips. The reason they gave for no medication is because they hope he's going to grow out of it.
latest results, confused, please advise!
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NICE - patients should be more 'pushy'
