An insight into Dr Skinner and Dr Lindner's kno... - Thyroid UK

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An insight into Dr Skinner and Dr Lindner's knowledge in diagnosing and treating hypo patients.

shaws profile image
shawsAdministrator
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How we should be diagnosed and treated!

PE1463/QQQQ

Dr Henry H. Lindner submission of 27 September 2017

Dear Women and Men of the Scottish Parliament,mI am writing again at the request of the petitioners about the ineffectiveness of the current approach to the diagnosis and treatment of hypothyroidism as expressed in guidelines produced by professional medical associations(1).

I will show that those guidelines are the product of false assumptions; not of the evidence.

I am a physician who has diagnosed and treated hypothyroidism in over a thousand patients according to their signs and symptoms.

Few have such experience in clinical thyroidology. Because I did not follow the guidelines, I was able to produce remarkable improvements in patients who would never have been diagnosed, and who were diagnosed but undertreated.

Gordon B.F. Skinner, a Scottish physician, reported similar experiences and conclusions (2,3). Also, it was only by trying to help suffering patients with effective T4/T3 therapy that I came to appreciate the prevalence of dysfunctional hypocortisolism, especially among women (4).

In what follows, I will argue for the following recommendations for improving the care of patients with hypothyroidism:

1.

Define hypothyroidism correctly, as “insufficient T3 - effect in some or all tissues of the body”.

2.

Endorse the patient’s signs and symptoms as the only true indicators of T3 - effect.

3.

Endorse the free T4 (FT4) and free T3 (FT3) levels, together,as the best indicator of T3 availability.

4.

Acknowledge that the TSH test is an indirect and fallible indicator of a patient’s T3 status.

5.

Acknowledge that effective thyroid replacement therapy produces different TSH, FT4 and FT3 levels than seen in healthy controls. No blood test can tell a physician what dose the patient needs.

6.

Demand that laboratories base their FT4 and FT3 reference ranges upon healthy non-patients who have been carefully screened for hypothyroid symptoms.They must also provide separate ranges for patients on levothyroxine therapy—as informed by clinical studies. (See below.)

7.

Endorse the practice of clinical thyroidology: the diagnosis and treatment of hypothyroidism according to clinical criteria first (signs and symptoms), and according to the relative FT4 and FT3 levels second.

This is precisely what patients want and need.

8.Uphold a physician’s right to practice clinical thyroidology and to prescribe effective T4/T3 combination therapy, including natural desiccated thyroid.

This is necessary to prevent persecution by the medical board and thus remove a major impediment to the practice of clinical thyroidology. The endocrine profession remains stuck in a simplistic laboratory-based paradigm that was invented in the 1970s. I call it the“TSH-T4 reference range paradigm”.

All of the thyroid research of the past 5 decades has been performed within and interpreted according to this paradigm.

All evidence that contradicts the paradigm has been ignored, minimized or re-categorized. The dominance of such paradigms in our sciences was described by Thomas Kuhn (5).

The TSH-T4 reference range paradigm is defined by these assumptions:

1.Hypothyroidism is an underactive thyroid gland producing low T4 levels.

2.Almost all hypothyroidism is primary (thyroid gland failure), detectable by an elevated TSH level.

3.A normal TSH test, in both untreated and treated persons,equals “euthyroidism”.

4.Hypothyroidism is perfectly treated by normalizing the TSH and/or FT4 with levothyroxine (T4).Because reliance on the TSH for diagnosis is problematic, an add-on assumption is required:

5.

Hypothyroidism must be confirmed by a FT4 level that is below the laboratory’s reference range.

The paradigm requires that all of the following unstated assumptions be true:

1.

TSH secretion is perfect in every person — absent any obvious hypothalamic-pituitary (HP) disease.

2.

Perfect TSH secretion reacts to once - daily T4 therapy exactly as it reacts to thyroid gland output: so the TSH level is also the perfect guide for therapy.

3.

T4-to-T3 conversion is perfect in every person, so physicians need only to prescribe T4.

4.

The FT4 reference ranges reported by laboratories represent “euthyroidism”.

Nothing should be presumed perfect in biology.

These assumptions are not just improbable;they are illogical and/or contradicted by the evidence.

(See below.)

They are nothing but the wishful thinking of a few influential physicians in the 1970s (6,7,8,9).

They hoped to simplify the diagnosis and treatment of hypothyroidism to TSH and FT4 tests and their reference ranges.

In fact physicians know better than to try to use pituitary hormone levels, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) or adrenocorticotrophic hormone (ACTH),to diagnose or treat hypogonadism or adrenal insufficiency. They know that in these deficiencies, HP dysfunction is common, and the pituitary hormone levels are of no help to guide therapy.

They diagnose and treat these deficiencies based upon signs, symptoms and end- hormone levels. They check the pituitary hormone level only to determine the cause of the deficiency.

The TSH should be used only in this way.

To rely on the TSH as a surrogate indicator of T3-effect is illogical. It is like insisting that one’s home-heating thermostat is working perfectly even as the house gets colder and colder. Indeed the guidelines’ authors know that the TSH test is misleading in many circumstances (it has “pitfalls”). Yet they still endorse it as the “best test”.

Consider: How were the TSH’s pitfalls discovered, and how can a physician avoid all pitfalls in all cases? There is only one way: by attending to the best indicators of T3-status—the signs and symptoms first,and relative FT4 and FT3 levels second.

The guidelines state that neither the patient’s signs and symptoms nor relative FT4 and FT3 levels can be used to diagnose hypothyroidism, and “do not have sufficient specificity to serve as therapeutic endpoints”. They have it backwards: it is the TSH and FT4 tests and reference ranges that are insensitive and non-specific indicators of the patient’s' T3 status. The guidelines thus violate one of the important guiding principles in medicine.

(To read the rest it is in the link below. I couldn't copy/paste and haven't done prtScn before so it has taken ages to get as far as I have :)

about 2 and a 1/4 pages down after "patient’s’

T3 status' read on.

parliament.scot/S5_PublicPe...

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shaws
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greygoose profile image
greygoose

Wonderful stuff!

shaws profile image
shawsAdministrator in reply togreygoose

Do our dreams come true - do you think?

greygoose profile image
greygoose in reply toshaws

Well, I'm a great believer in miracles. :)

shaws profile image
shawsAdministrator in reply togreygoose

Yes - I also believe that miracles can happen. Especially when I took T3 instead of T4.

Why do some doctors know exactly how to diagnose and how to treat and others keep everyone in limbo with nonsense and the patient thinks what he is saying is correct until they have no improvement and even more symptoms develop.

greygoose profile image
greygoose in reply toshaws

I would imagine because some doctors take more interest in thyroid than others, and take the trouble to find out. I did briefly see one endo who told me she learnt a lot from her patients, who had learnt from on-line forums. And she was fine with T3 only. But, she still believed that a TSH of less than 0.25 was very, very dangerous. So some prejudices always seem to survive.

shaws profile image
shawsAdministrator in reply togreygoose

They are still afraid we'll have heart attacks. I doubt they know that undiagnosed will cause them eventually.

greygoose profile image
greygoose in reply toshaws

I doubt they do ! lol

Supul profile image
Supul in reply toshaws

Could it be they all know but don't care?

I have been getting very low after 6 months baseline levothyroxine so first ever endo could get baseline. This week started alternative days higher dose after seeing endo. To phone him after 3 mths see if need another increase.

I am in so much pain, aching, tearful, skin outbreaks, etc I plucked up courage see GP yesterday. (New GP as old one would not listen 're thyroid crises - got those results London Dr - AITD, thyroiditis).

New GP no better. I said I am very tearful, tried explain... he told me I was emotional (is that a crime?). I explained I'm coming through harsh time thyroid med dose changes... he said, back to the emotional side... antidepressants? I said can you give increased dose levothyroxine as endo asked, thank God, and the fact I had copy of letter endo sent him after my app 6 mths ago, he prescribed increase.

So, he put higher dose on computer, then said back to the emotional... I explained, my endocrinologist wrote to you saying if I needed more levo during 6 mth trial period give it to me, you didn't, when I saw prescribing nurse after 3 mths she said no, why?

He said, I haven't had letter (find this very hard to believe!). Tears sprung to my eyes again.. He said, back to emotional... counselling? I said, yes paid for that old Dr said very long wait list when I realised NHS system got me down over poor thyroid care. She asked can you source and pay for your own? I walked out, paid for counselling, got new GP practice.

Now, I know, GP do not care!

Yesterday, I declined antidepressants, counselling, after the new GP jumped out his chair offering me a leaflet to get myself an NHS counsellor. Then told me I had nearly run into 15 minutes!!! Over to you Jeremy Hunt! Do you get this sort of treatment???!!

I guess there is no such thing as thyroid symptoms we are all emotional and depressed?

Ok. HU tried and tested NHS members. You have a told me this before, doctors do not research, talk, or listen to patients regarding thyroid. We are on our own, together here! Thank God, we get support and advice here.

Onwards and upwards. Bring the petitions, the marches, I'm ready..... just let me get some energy and lose pain first!!! Lol.

shaws profile image
shawsAdministrator in reply toSupul

Get your FT3 tested and FT4 if you can afford it privately and go from there. These are the really only 'true' numbers we need. On the following you will see why.

thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/testin...

With the help of members we can slowly recover our health. Many do fine on levo when on an optimum dose just ask GP for a blood test every six weeks for an increase of 25mcg each time. If he refuses because TSH is 'in range' source yuor own.

We have two labs who do home pin-prick tests and one has a special offer every Wednesday (I believe). Follow the procedure i.e. earliest, fasting (you can drink water) and allow a gap of 24 hours between dose of levo if you're on it and the test and take afterwards. Blue Horizon and Medichecks.

thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/testin...

Supul profile image
Supul in reply toshaws

Thank you Shaws. I will post results from last week as soon as I can face going through file.

I won't ask GP for any help 're thyroid again. I just don't want the humiliation. The dismissive answer no, we test yearly...

I have 2 more blood forms from endo, for 3, 6, months. Both have Ft3 and Ft4, so that's good. The problem I have is GP won't follow his advice.

No worries, I will do as many of you do, pay for blood tests and source what I need to be well.

Endo advised me to start B complex after last test. My folate and B12 were low.. I don't know if its the B complex, but today I feel a bit better. I also bought magnesium and that must be helping joint pain.

Advice here has helped me so much, thank you.

Justiina profile image
Justiina in reply toshaws

I might have an answer to that.

Some doctors have a true passion and they are aiming to improve wellbeing of the patients instead settling with guidelines based on blood markers.

Like doc running the private practice I am patient of. He was studying biochemistry at first, then got interested of becoming a doctor. First he followed the guidelines and prescribed thyroxine by the rules and antidepressants for those who didn't improve on thyroxine. Because of basic knowledge of biochemistry he had previously studied he started to question the guidelines and was puzzled about patients remaining unwell despite his efforts to follow the guidelines he thought had been made by experts. Eventually he ditched all official guidelines , set up private practice and started to consult those endos who truly understand thyroid function and adrenal fatigue.

Now, few years later he educates other doctors and nurses and doctors from other countries contact him and they are planning on meeting to figure out how to spread the knowledge.

shaws profile image
shawsAdministrator in reply toJustiina

It is so good to hear of a medical person really wanting to help sick people recover. As the saying goes 'it is easy if you know how' but the Associations are sticking to what they state as 'perfect' way to treat. We know it isn't and many are left in the lurch to figure out their own way forward. Good job we have the internet now as a source of education.

AliF profile image
AliF

This is the clearest explanation of why the use of TSH and T4 are inadequate in diagnosing and treating hypothyroidism that I have ever read. It should be circulated to every GP and endocrinologist in the UK not just the Scottish parliament. I wonder if they took any notice ? Do you know if there was some specific vote that prompted him to write and did he also write to Jeremy Hunt/Dept of Health/Houses of Parliament/GMC/Royal College of Endocrinologists/Old Uncle Tom Cobley and all in London I wonder?

shaws profile image
shawsAdministrator in reply toAliF

I believe it was sent to the Scottish Parliament on behalf of Lorraine Cleaver's case before the Parliament and it is still ongoing at present. I would imagine he would only have written as regards her case to point out the reason she was nearly driven to suicide leaving a husband and son behind. She had also found out that both Dr Skinner and Dr Lindner had the same viewpoint and Dr S saved her life and she is well now. Dr S was present at the Scottish Parliament but unfortunately for us he died.

She is also a 'woman on a mission' like many of us.

Big Pharma is at the root as it was those who brought in levothyroxine along with the blood tests and told doctors how to diagnose/treat. To the detriment of many thousands, I should think, since the 60's.

NDT was then withdrawn from being prescribed as 'stories' were made-up about it being inconsistent etc despite its safe use for nearly 100 years. Then T3 was also withdrawn despite it helping people to recover or added to T4. Again it was the Endocrinology that seemed to want to keep the TSH and T4 only.

Did the MPs take note? I hope so. Considering the present guidelines are exactly why so many remain undiagnosed and untreated or given anti-d's or any other thing to keep them quiet. Or some commit suicide, poor souls - no-one believed them - not one doctor/specalist took note of clinical symptoms but probably diagnosed a mental health condition, which low or very low T3 could mimic (I am not medically qualified and haven't researched suicide but would not be surprised).

If we, the patients, can read and know who is talking nonsense and who is right they should listen to us and we should have a 'voice' and not treat us as imbeciles. Because they have a 'Certificate' but not the disease doesn't make them qualified as well proven by this website alone. Worldwide is the same chaos regarding diagnosing/treatment of hypothyroidism. After all it is easy to treat "with the right hormones). Those who do well on levo can keep on it but it is the initial diagnosis which can take years to get but if only they would learn symptoms and people could get a trial of hormones.

shaws profile image
shawsAdministrator in reply toAliF

I think I will give my surgery a print-out of the above.

They can think what they want but they don't approve of me too much (I believe) as I make one of them nervous somehow (I wonder why :) - is it because I know more - probably yes? especially when he told me T3 converts to T4? (I take T3 only) so he thought my T4 should be higher.

Harthill42 profile image
Harthill42

Music to my ears. Thank you

steviecat profile image
steviecat

I haven't said anything here for a while. Life, and a recognition that I am on my own with this disease has contributed to a serious lack of confidence that anything will change for the better. However, this post and the work the ITT campaign continues to do, gives me some hope that, one day, the disgraceful lack of knowledge, of care, that sufferers receive from the so-called medical profession will be outed in a way that engenders a new dawn for all who are trapped in this purgatory.

diogenes profile image
diogenesRemembering

There is a basic problem in getting this kind of excellent analysis and rules for diagnosis accepted by the mainstream. It is simply that any amount of Skinners, Lindners and those who think like them can be brushed aside as "merely recounting anecodotal evidence" and not conducting the sort of work that the mainstream deems necessary to prove the point. That work is for them through randomised clinical trials and meta-analyses of those trials. It is a (delicious?) irony that the design of all clinical trials except for one or two very small ones is so flawed that they cannot answer the questions asked. The mainstream is rather like a water buffalo - rather thick, rather aggressive and blessed with a head of horn so thick that direct attacks on its head have no effect. No amount of frontal attack by Lindners will move the beast or even get it to acknowledge it is being attacked. Our approach in understanding and publishing papers on the physiology of the thyroid, its interaction with the rest of the body and the implications of this for treatment when the thyroid fails is to aim to cut off its legs. This understanding is overarching and applies to everyone in some form or another and cannot dismissed as anecdotal. Nothing, however brainless can stand without legs.

shaws profile image
shawsAdministrator in reply todiogenes

You are right diogenes . Dr Skinner's staff have been collating their Research since his death about 3 years ago and are ready to publish but, like many things, they have to raise the funds.

With good researchers/doctors like yourself and other doctors , hopefully our children/grandchildren and others will get proper treatment and quick diagnosis and not have to search everywhere for information that is accurate and truthful instead of being told there is nothing wrong but prescribed anti-d's instead.

MaryMary profile image
MaryMary

Useful documents and those to come to send to the recent Debate in the House of Lords?

A great read! After ditching my previous primary a year ago, I went to my wife's primary because she was a Fellow with the American Academy for Anti-Aging Medicine. I went in with new self-ordered tests. She looked at my thyroid numbers and said my 2.98 mU/l TSH was fine. Normal. That's why I've got a spare tire around my waist, why I'm depressed and why there hasn't been sizzle between the sheets for years. I challenged that TSH should be 1 or much lower. Her reply was that I want "optimal thyroid function". Back to self-treating with Thiroyd. My wife told me, last week, that this doctor told her that she's taking an indefinite leave of absence.

shaws profile image
shawsAdministrator in reply to

Maybe this doctor has hypothyroidism which hasn't yet been detected?

in reply toshaws

Maybe I should be the one treating the doctor. I've found two doctors, not close by, but driveable; one an interventional endocrinologist and one, an integrative psychiatrist: They have six month waiting lists. Not any better here in the US. Plenty of doctors but few good ones.

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