4am and still no sleep....again

[mb008]

I posted earlier this week about not sleeping. I stopped my NDT for 2 days to try and get to a little more normal. I felt better in that I was less wired but I still didn't sleep well. However thought I'd better start NDT again yesterday and it's the same all over. Tried a low dose melatonin for first time in the evening but that didn't work. Just taken a phenergen to try get some sleep as we are travelling tomorrow and I have so much to do today.

I am only on a quarter grain ndt am and pm. Vitamins all ok. Planned to do a cortisol saliva test today but surely it will be so skewed by the absolute lack of sleep?

Can I make a straight switch back to levo? At least for a week of hols? At least i managed to sleep on that sometimes. Can't tolerate levo either when it builds up and suffer with insomnia. This week I think that I've had about 8 hours sleep in total. Shattered, look awful, feel miserable and anxious about going away.

Sorry for off-loading again...

[shaws Administrator]

Your dose of NDT is so small - equal to around 50mcg of levo so I don't know why you are splitting. That may be the reason you don't feel well i.e. too low a dose. What dose of levothyroxine were you taking before you stopped?

If you switch back to levo for a week, I don't know if it will make any difference as it takes about 4 weeks to build up in your system.

[endomad]

Hi mb008

before my thyroid was treated i slept 20 hours a day, i couldnt stay awake for more than an hour!

Since treatment i am the opposite, i get rubbish sleep, i am always awake 3-4am i average 4-5 hours broken sleep per night, the pattern shows adrenal problems, i did saliva test and my cortisol is very low, i have been treating them which has made my sleep worse, only 2 hours a night. I stopped adrenal supps and am feeling better but still not sleeping well.

For me it seems it is a trade off treat my thyroid = rubbish sleep, dont treat thyroid=sleep all the time.

My thyroid was removed 2009 so not treating is not an option, i know how you feel weeks and weeks of not sleeping is stressful. I catch up with naps afternoon and early evening when ever i can nod off, to make up for lack of nigh time sleep. I have tried everything to get regular nigh time sleep but nothing has worked, not even sleeping tablets i still wake at 3am.

I hope you find something that works for you x

[mb008 in reply to endomad]

Thanks endomad

I try to sleep in daytime but I never ever can. It's as if I am on absolute overdrive always. Never ever switch off. Initially I thought it was good, getting things done but weeks of no sleep and it's torture. I'm sorry that you've not found something that lets you sleep at least sometimes. There has to be an answer doesnt there?

[Phyloreardon]

Have you tried magnesium? I take magnesium citrate and my sleep has improved a lot. Used to wake up with terrible leg ache all the time. I take just before bed

[mb008 in reply to Phyloreardon]

Hi

Been taking mg for nearly a year. Afraid it doesn't work for me anymore like that.

[Serendipitious in reply to mb008]

mb008,

What potency and type of Magnesium were you taking? Some are absorbed more poorly than others and if you simply don't take enough it won't help?

[mb008 in reply to Serendipitious]

Hi. I have a heaped teaspoon of natural calm every evening with a hot drink. It's mg citrate.

[Serendipitious in reply to mb008]

mb008,

I don't know how much that is but I'd recommend between 300-400mg. Also aside from Citrate there are better forms of Magnesium such as Orotate, Fumarate and Taurate.

If you can get hold of it I'd recommend Poliquin Uber Mag or something similar: main.poliquinstore.com/uber...

[Justliloldme]

What are you're B12 levels like?

I used to be very similar but my B12 levels were low. Supplementing my B12 seems to help me sleep much better.

[mb008 in reply to Justliloldme]

Thanks, but b12 is high.

[Justliloldme in reply to mb008]

That's good. I thought it was worth mentioning it though just in case.

I hope you get sorted soon. x

[milupa]

Hi mb008 - I know the feeling! Awful, dreadful, soul destroying!

You might be on the right track with adrenal dysfunction. Does your saliva kit cover a nighttime sample? Low cortisol might lead to an adrenaline rush, which wakes you up with that sudden jolt of panic. High nighttime cortisol gives a softer waking up.

Here's a list of what I did to finally sleep again (I was desperate after three months of three hours sleep average) after testing neurotransmitters, hormones and minerals:

Sufficient thyroid hormone

Cortisol support during the day (liquorice, phosphatidylcholine)

Cortisol suppressant in the evening (phosphatidylserine, zinc)

Every evening: GABA, 5-htp delayed release for serotonin, melatonin delayed release, progesterone, liver support

Vitamins, detox protocol etc before midday, low histamine and low carb food in the evening.

With all of that my sleep quality and quantity improved.

Maybe one of these steps could help you?

[mb008 in reply to milupa]

Thanks very much. That's a super intensive protocol but I am at desperation point. I have started the saliva testing today with 6 points. I thought I'd just push the two later ones into the night rather than evening?

What was the liver support you took?

Also my thyroid meds aren't enough. Currently though with a reduced dose my temp and pulse are raised. My temp averaging 36.7 and pulse 70.

What were your cortisol readings when you started auctioning? Did you take any adrenal support?

I think I will have a lot more questions to follow...but thank you for your helpful recommendations..

[milupa in reply to mb008]

Hi mb008!

I pushed the evening samples into the night as well, the lab may not have reference ranges for those times so you might have to interpret the results yourself.

Temps and pulse don't look too high, but they probably feel high in comparison to what you are used to? Blood test results might help. I could only increase T3 to a good level once adrenals were supported; I had to add hydrocortisone for that.

In traditional Chinese Medicine the wake up times correlate to certain organs, I had been given herb concoctions years ago for night time sweats and waking (estrogen dominance as well). I take milk thistle and artichoke extract which supposedly help raise glutathione. 'Now Liver Detoxifier and Rebuilder' is a favourite, but has a lot of ingredients so not for everyone.

My cortisol levels were low within range morning and midday, below range mid and late afternoon then rising to way above range at 03:00. I had blood drawn at the times I felt worst, they also showed below range.

I took liquorice and cortex. Middling success.

Sorry for writing so much - I have spent years on this puzzle, if one of my experiences can help you to sleep better I'd be very happy.

[Serendipitious in reply to mb008]

mb008,

Just remembered. This normally helps me get to sleep. It's Thorne Relora and also contains a B Complex.

uk.iherb.com/pr/Thorne-Rese...

Relora is a herbal complex which balances cortisol levels.

[Avidreader]

Trying to work out dates it seems you're struggling AFTER seeing New consultant ? 🤔 Is the problem here that we are having to pay privately & them left struggling on doses etc ? I feel there s too much self medicating happening & trial & error & that I won't cope ?

[mb008 in reply to Avidreader]

I emailed my consultant and he's really good at getting back to me. I have struggled with sleep on Levo and now NDT - however, he recommended trying to persevere. I haven't been able to increase my dose significantly but I am sleeping - however, I think that's to do with needing a dose increase which I am trying to do very slowly (too slowly?). My experience so far is that it is trial and error - as each person's response is so different to another's. This forum is excellent for some hand-holding when it gets a bit tough.

[Avidreader in reply to mb008]

really wishing you better - I can understand how hard it is. I've been seeing an acupuncture lady - chinese medicine & she's been amazing. But it's all money! What I'm concerned about is the trial & errors when we are just busy & trying to get on with life. But you're still pleased with the consultand Dr. Z . that you saw? despite the lack of sleep? My MUm has low thryroid & never seems to sleep well? I sleep for England! Mum's not overweight either, she eats like a horse, yet I eat healthy & don't lose weight & I swim every day! Take care.