Gynecomastia from ADT - how much?

[Lost_Sheep]

Gynecomastia from ADT - how much?

I am considering asking my oncologist for transdermal estrogn (TDE) therapy instead of Orgovyx to combat my prostate cancer. Since gynecomastia and breast pain are pretty much the only bad side effects from TDE and less troubling to me than metabolic disturbance,liver problems and effects on blood lipids/triclyceride.

But enlarged breasts from TDE are forever (without surgery afterwards or radiation beforehand). So, a concern.

My question is, "How large?"

I know from reading about male to female transgender persons that breast size one or two cup sizes smaller than one's first-order female relatives can be expected from the hormone therapy normally given to M-F transgenders. Of course, their desire would be to maximize the effect.

What is the experience of men being treated with estrogen (either as a monotherapy or adjunct to standard ADT) or men experiencing gynecomastia from standard ADT?

If you are comfortable with it, please report how your breast growth compares to your female relatives.

[cesanon]

" that breast size one or two cup sizes smaller than one's first-order female relatives can be expected"

Interesting

[Tall_Allen]

He is not likely to prescribe that until there is proof that estrogen is not inferior.

Transdermal tamoxifen may be able to prevent gynecomastia. But that has never been tested with TDE as ADT.

[ragnar2020]

TDE has never been put through the traditional RCT because the pharmaceutical industry will never do that. TDE has been undergoing a RDT in Great Britain and it’s final phase three results will be released sometime this year. Great Britain’s national health care system wants to determine if the use of TDE is as effective at reducing testosterone as the American pharmaceutical industry’s very expensive manufactured alternative drugs. The phase one and two results look very promising. Many countries with national health care use estrogen to reduce testosterone for prostate cancer care and also improve bone mineral density because it has been a proven alternative to the American capitalistic pharmaceutical industry alternatives.

[dixiedad]

I don't think my moobs are evident when I wear a shirt, however I'll never go swimming again.

[janebob99]

Great questions. One of my 10+ papers on transdermal estrogen (TDE) has a table that lists the frequency of men that have Grade 0, 1, 2, or 3 gynecomastia after being on estrogen patches. I'll have to find it and post.

My memory (which isn't so great at 69) tells me that most of these men had grade 0 or 1 gynecomastia, which is small to moderate size increases. Only a few experienced the large to very large size increases, I think.

I have moderate gynecomastia from a lifetime of naturally having high estradiol levels, so I'm used to them and my wife doesn't complain. But, before I start TDE therapy, though, I'm planning on getting a single radiation dose to both breasts to prevent further enlargement. (I look at the men in the gym and wish I had flat breasts like them...)

Bob

[janebob99]

I found some information by Langley (2013), and Hedlund (2008).

Langley reports that 75% of men getting transdermal estrogen (TDE) had some gynecomastia, versus 19% for men on Lupron ADT. (Yes, Lupron ADT causes gynecomastia in some men). Langley also reports that the percentage of men with severe gynecomastia requiring "intervention" was 9% for TDE and 0% for Lupron ADT.

Langley also reports that the percentage of men who had grade 1-2 gynecomastia was 49%-58% on TDE vs 19% for Lupron ADT. Also, the percentage of men who had grade 3 gynecomastia was 9-12% on TDE versus 0% for Lupron ADT.

She studied 2 patches per week and 4 patches per week.

Hedlund (who used an injectable form of estrogen called "PEP", injected IM), reports that 4% of men had "fist-sized" breasts while taking PEP, versus 2% of men who took PEP and did radiation treatment.

Here are the references:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/234...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/126...

If you send me a private message with your email, I will send you .pdfs of these two papers.

Bob

Gynecomastia section from Langley (2013)

[tsim]

Varies widely, I found doing flys out and back with some light dumbbells really helped tighten the muscles and reduce those boobs.

[Mgtd in reply to tsim]

That has been my experience too. I also do incline bench presses along with traditional bench press. At 78 I now use lighter weights through out my resistance workout.

This may interest you and something to consider.

Ran into a guy who when we were talking in the gym told me that rushing through reps to achieve a certain number of reps had a negative effect on the results. His explanation made sense from a science prospective.

He watched me do two sets and told me what he observed. He was spot on when I thought about it latter. I was doing that and had developed bad habits.

I thought about this latter and realized I was doing that so I modified and slowed down even if I had to sacrifice reps initially. Made a huge difference in results over time.

[conbio]

I was a little freaked about this as well before starting ADT. My RO said, really, it is not common and he thought radiation treatment or adding another drug to my system was not advisable. So I went without any treatment. After 18 months of ADT, I had no breast enlargement.

I exercised A LOT during my treatment and took on a weight lifting trainer once a week, lifted on my own once a week, climbed, and biked as I felt up to it.

[j-o-h-n]

With my wife it's always been "Tit for Tat".......... With my ex-wife it was always "Tit for Rat"....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n

[Lost_Sheep in reply to j-o-h-n]

Rat?

[j-o-h-n in reply to Lost_Sheep]

Shithead...... somehow doesn't rhyme.........

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n

[Lost_Sheep in reply to j-o-h-n]

Ah. I am familiar with the sentiment if not the reference.