Have been taking vitamin K2 for a few months having read that many of you also take them along with other supplements. Is anyone aware of any contraindications especially relating to possible effects on heart?
Thank you in advance
Re Vitamin K2: Have been taking vitamin K2 for a... - PMRGCAuk
Re Vitamin K2
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Ana-16
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DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer
You can always check online -and pharmacists are usually quite useful .. Am about to leave on an all day road trip but a quick search from AI found this -
Vitamin K2 can interact with some medications, including blood thinners and antibiotics, and can affect heart health. You should consult your local health authority for more information.
Interaction with blood thinners
Warfarin (Coumadin)
Vitamin K can reduce the effectiveness of warfarin, which can increase the risk of blood clots, heart attacks, and strokes.
Other anticoagulants
Vitamin K can also interact with other anticoagulants, such as phenprocoumon, acenocoumarol, and tioclomarol.
Interaction with other medications
Antibiotics: Some antibiotics can reduce the body's ability to absorb vitamin K.
Orlistat: This weight-loss drug can reduce the body's ability to absorb vitamin K.
Heart health
A diet rich in vitamin K may reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease.
Vitamin K2 supplements may support heart health.
What to do
Before taking vitamin K2, talk to your healthcare provider about all medications and supplements you're taking.
Maintain a consistent intake of vitamin K if you're taking warfarin or similar anticoagulants.
What I find frustrating in that often sites refer to vitamin K1, K2 and K3 interchangeably with no guide to any overlap in properties.
Totally agree -
Thank you sooo much for such a detailed response. You are amazing x
I thnk (but am not sure) that the concern with interaction with anticoagulants is for K1, not K2.
Yes I know it is -but as I said it was a quick reply copied from AI as I was just about to set off on a 6 hour road trip.., Others have clarified…
PMRproAmbassador
Vit K1 is the version that is more of concern if you happen to be on warfarin but is not a concern with other anticoagulants. Vit K2 is less involved in the clotting mechanism.
I asked my dr if he could measure my K2 because I wanted to add it in my diet because I heard it was good for dental work. I am going to be having a lot going on with my both in the next 2 years and I figured why not give it more support if needed. He is doing blood work and will let me know but said he never heard of that it’s really for clotting. I had read about this most recently. Do you know anything about this? I am also adding Glutamine with my regimen of vitamins and he said that was okay.
See HeronNS 's reply immediately below.
This is a good article from a reliable source
health.clevelandclinic.org/...
but I doubt your doctor will be able to get routine lab work that differentiates bewtween K1 and K2 - and anyway, it still isn't really clear what the relative roles are.
This
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articl...
supports its supplementation but I don't know how good the paper really is and the affiliations of the authors - maybe they have shares in a K2 supplement!!!
As long ago as 2013 the author of Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox was expressing frustration about the lack of distinction in research concerning the K vitamins. There are tests but then, and I suspect to this day, they weren't readily available outside research settings. One of the problems is there IS valid Japanese research but it seems like Western medicine has largely ignored it, or at any rate the information hasn't filtered through to frontline medical caregivers. Except some dentists.
Although K2 has a small effect on blood clotting, and K1 has a small effect on bone building, the emphasis is on "small". Please don't be surprised if the pharmacist or doctor you speak to denies that there is proof that K2 is good for the bones. They simply don't know (unless they've read Japanese research). Although K2 has been known for about a century, it was only finally determined to be Vitamin K2 in 2008, so it hasn't filtred into the textbooks yet.
Vitamin K2 is essential for 1) activating the process by which calcium is deposited in the bones. And 2) while it does that it is preventing calcium from building up in blood vessels and other soft tissues, so it's actually performing double duty assisting with bone density and lowering the risk of cardiovascular illness.
Australia's RDA is 180 mcg MK7, I don't think any other country has determined a level. It is mostly lacking from the modern diet and our own bodies are not efficient at converting enough Vitamin K1 into K2 and I suppose that would be even more of an issue for people who have to limit their intake of K1 through food.
I recommend you read Vitamin K2 and the calcium Paradox by Kate Rheaume. It was published about 2013, and some of the things she talks about were at that time speculative, but the basic information about how K2 is important for bone and dental health has been known for decades.
Many many thanks. That’s really very helpful. X
If you have any more questions I've just been rereading the book, have it on an e--reader so not that easy to flip pages, but I personally am feeling even better about taking 200 mcg K2 (MK7) every day. I can tell you from personal experience that my very sensitive teeth have been, over time, cured! An unexpected and welcome benefit.
What is “MK7”? Thx.
It K2 MK7 the simple/active and more easily absorbed variant of K2 , it's the type to look for when choosing a supplement including K2.
That’s interesting. I’ve been taking K2 for some years & no longer experience sensitive teeth which bothered me a lot growing up & into adulthood. Nice to know this side effect is a bonus!
K2 enables calcium to rebuild dentin! Who knew? 😊😁
I don't know if this is helpful but I get my vit K2 from goat's kefir
That's great. It's always best to get a nutrient from a reliable food source. The problem with K2 is that most of us can no longer access a reliable source.
Hi Ana, I have taken Vit K2 for 4 years since I started Pred. I have recently been troubled with Atrial Fibrillation and my GP told me to stop Vit K 2 for the moment just until I have my heart echocardiogram, as there is a small chance of it being dangerous to people with AFib , as it could cause clotting in the heart. I was very surprised!
Vit K1 is instrumental in clotting. Clots settle at the base of the ventricals but are disturbed during an a/fib episode and can set off through the body - and can cause a stroke, heart attack or PE. That's why the most important medication for a/fib is an anticoagulant.
That is your doctor exercising an abundance of caution. There is a lack of research in the area of K2 and its role in blood clotting so it's best to do as the doctor says, although one hopes in the future we'll know more and what is a safe dose in these situations. In the absence of any contraindications there is no known issue of toxicity or other problems with ample K2. Maybe eat a bit of Brie or one of the Swiss cheeses to give you a small amount of K2? That would be the equivalent of a mixed salad and K1, but with vanishingly small coagulating effect.
Have a word with your rheumy nurse…..what is suitable for one person may not suit another,& it is always best to ask whoever prescribes regular meds.
I’ve just re-watched the webinars run by PMRGCAuk last year, and surprised to see that Professor Emma Clark, when asked about K2, said that there’s no evidence for it..if you want to, take it, it won’t do any harm but I don’t think it’s doing you any long term benefit over and above calcium and vitamin D3.
IS there any evidence?
See HeronNS 's reply just above.
It's very frustrating. If you have time, please scroll through this conversation as I've made several replies which contain different information about Vitamin K2. The short answer, however, is: Yes, there is evidence that Vitamin K2 is helpful.
thanks. i'd already ready the full conversation before i posted, as although HU experts like yourself clearly were in favour of K2 i couldn't see any evidence, and i do question opinions by asking 'where's the evidence'. is she right, then, in dismissing K2 by saying there's no evidence?
There is evidence. I must get off my computer right now but when I have time I'll look for some medical reseach articles. What a rheumatologist told me in 2016 was that there had been four research papers, and they didn't find evidence that K2 was helpful for bone density. I promptly went home and looked at my computer. Yes, there were four articles. The kind mentioned in the book where researchers are not properly considering K2 apart from K1. So then I looked for Japanese research, and there was plenty of evidence, according to Japaanese researchers, and available in English, or I wouldn't have been able to find it! But I did have to add the word Japanese to my search. As Google has become practically unusable lately I'm not going down the rabbit hole just now, but I'll be back later.
It's awful isn't it!!! It will NOT accept my desire for English results - I'm in Italy so only Italian results are supposed to be of any interest!! Do I want something "nearer" to me - no, I really don't ...
It's the use of AI which makes unintelligent assumptions. I don't know why a search engine which was so universally useful could have become so frustrating with the introduction of AI, and why the developers have allowed this to continue.
Are you getting mainly Italian languge results? If that's the case you should be able to reset language to English. Go to Google settings and there is a language option in the menu. I've just reset mine from English (USA) to English, interested to see if that's helpful or not! No doubt there is a way to disable your location information in Google which might help.
My language has ALWAYS been set to English. But they tend to override with results relevant to where you are - so in Italy, Italian results predominate. I've been to the local computer guy and he managed to improve it a bit but even he was stumped. I can't be bothered to go back ... But the AI stuff is infuriating as I don't trust it - because it doesn't get the nuances from science reviews for example and isn't above making up references. I think it takes us back 30 or 40 years ...
I never read that top result - always AI now - for the reasons you state. It has also occurred to me that because people are now using AI for fun, like a picture showing a woman wearing a dress made out of cats, this playful misinformation now becomes part of the digital world AI uses. So playful use becomes misinformation, and deliberate harmful misinformation fed into the system takes on life and is spread by AI itself, not just malevolent humans.
Yup ...
I have just learned that typing -ai (that's a minus sign) before search term in Google search eliminates AI results. At least the one at the top.
The one at the top isn't always AI - I get Healthline articles at the top too but maybe they are AI as well ...
Perhaps there's variation depending on the browser and other aspects of a device. I did have fun testing this last night. It was extraordinary seeing the first result after saying no to AI, like someone had just washed windows and light was flooding in! Mind you, when I did a second search there was a little note informing me that AI had additional results. Easily ignored.
Hi Duncoding hope you find this, buried in what became a long thread.... It wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. The main caveat in the conclusion is the need for better research, and this is to deal with the kind of flabby research too many of our medical people have been influenced by, not because there isn't ample published evidence already available (they've just spent many pages examining this evidence). Kind of reminds me how so many doctors still think PMR isn't found in people younger than 50 (or worse, 60) and is over in 2 years, because that's what was in early literature they read as students. Never mind that a wealth of information countering those assumptions has now been available for decades.
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articl...
Not as much as you'd think in terms of getting guidelines changed.
Speaking of which, I've got a vague memory of having filled out a questionnaire years ago which I think was in the interests of finding out experience of actual patients. Am I imagining this, or has anything been done with results gathered?
Is that one of Melanie Sloane's studies? They are more general rheumatology I think.
That name doesn't ring a bell. It was definitely to do with PMR, had been going on for a some time before I arrived on the scene. Whoever it was intended to gather as much data as possible over several years.
James Brimicombe? Or something like that. He was doing something more PMR/GCA related I think.
Tbh I don't think a specific researcher's name was attached to it. I came across it probably before I joined a forum, but definitely saw it on a forum later, I already having done it. International, anyone with PMR could fill it in, I found a few similar types of surveys mentioned (on Google!) but they were restricted to specific communities, like certain groups of practices in the UK, or more recent. I'd have done it in 2015 as that's when I was diagnosed.
There was a Dutch one which Mavis/jinasc used to mention but I think its in abeyance.
On similar subject [GCA rather than PMR] study may have been co-ordinated from here-
The Centre for Prognosis Studies in the Rheumatic Diseases, Toronto Western Hospital
I don't think it had a Canadian origin and probably I'd have remembered if it was based in Toronto, especially when it turned up here (or, less likely, Patient). Oh well, ten years is a long time. If anything was going to happen with info collected it's long out of date now.
Sure you would have… 😊
Hi, thank you so much for finding the time to look into this. I had a go and only found this menatto.com/science/ . The publication you found is enlightening but, as you say, it calls for more research. Totally agree with you that the medics’ (professor’s!) knowledge is frequently out of date and is a major cause of yo-yoing. Let’s hope someone does more research into K2 mk7, but meanwhile I’ll be carrying on with my 90ug a day which I’ve been taking ever since I picked up on it through this forum and keep hoping it sorts out my sensitive teeth too!
I was advised to take D3 with K2 as D3 helps with calcium absorption and K2 diverts the calcium to the bones rather than the arteries.
Yes I have taken D3 regularly for many years as a decent D3 level is generally considered quite helpful for people with MS by related organisations - and even my MS Neurologist started to agree with that. (or more accurately, it’s low vitamin D levels that are thought to be unhelpful) so I keep my D levels as high as possible without scaring my GP 😊 and I have my levels checked at least annually to make sure I don’t overshoot & go too high! I then read -quite a few years ago - a lot around the pros & cons of having high levels of vitamin D3, and back then discovered several articles about the benefits of combining Vit K2 with the D3 to assist with keeping (or sending to) calcium in the bones rather than hanging around in blood vessels and other places which could be detrimental. I have regular contact in my group with many people with MS who do exactly that same D3 & K2 combo and quite a few in various discussions are in agreement that a ‘welcome side effect’ is a noticeable decrease in tooth sensitivity- my own (soft Scottish 🙄 teeth ) used to be really sensitive and still are a bit, but are better than they used to be, so maybe there’s some truth in that too 🤞.
The improvement in my teeth started slowly but has continued. At first I noticed my teeth didn't bother me when I wasn't eating - it had become a pretty much an all the time problem - and then gradually I became less sensitive to cold temperatures. Now I never think about it.
Huge thank you to everyone who replied to my query. The responses have been very helpful. I have been taking K2 for several months and recent tests showed improvement in N T X levels. I understand that this has something to do with calcium levels in the blood (?) so I’m hoping that the calcium is now attaching to my bones. As is evident I’m no scientist or have any medical knowledge so reached out to the experts on the forum. 🙂
It is a measure of bone turnover - so something is improving!
"The most useful application of NTx measurement is to monitor the response to anti-resorptive therapy in metabolic bone disease, eg. the treatment of osteoporosis with bisphosphonate drugs, such as zolendronate/alendronate. Serial samples on the same patient are measured before therapy and after 3 and 6 months on therapy."
I’m very had three Zolondrate infusions and endo was recommending another after previous results. Waiting to see if he still wants me to go ahead after the most recent. There has been a significant improvement
Vitamin K2 actively prevents calcium from floating around in the bloodstream because it enables calcium to enter the bones. This has the additional benefit of avoiding calcium deposts on blood vessel walls, thus lowering risk of developing cardiovascular problems. It can also reduce such deposits if they have already started forming.
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