What is Defensive Medicine .........
Defensive Medicine is defined as a doctors diviation from standard Practice to reduce or prevent Complaints or Criticism. For an Example, will give every test,investigations etc possible.
Next time I go down to the Doctor not being able to get B12 or even some sort investigation
I will ask for a dose of Defensive Medicine.
🤔
I know that some doctors will lie in order to prevent a complaint going any further than their surgery . It has happened to me . So now I know what it can be called .
This is how low it gets in the NHSTo days Daily Mail GP 'told widow to certify husbands body by video" The Doctor refused to come out.
Well I can add to that.... a friends dad died, again doctor refused to come out. Our lovely compassionate undertaker came out, took him to his chapel of rest .
Three days later he got a phone call from a doctor saying he had to come and certify his death. The undertaker said
'Oh is that right .. well he is the wrong bl....y Place if he is alive."
Can't get treatment live or dead.
Defensive Medicine ......
Yes It happened to me when I begged for B12 to be re instated. After consulting the Specialist I was given by my M.P. . The Doctor rang, first he said was are you making a complaint I said No. Then he said HOW OFTEN would you like them.
I said I thought Doctors decided that .
So I had my first dose !!
Wow that's just crazy and really awful!
I had never heard of defensive medicine before but searched google and OMG. So that's what they're busy doing, ordering lots of tests but not bothering to interpret them 🤔
DO you know what Jade, we still have a lot to learn about the inside workings of the caring National Health System. The more we inform each other the more we are amazed.
😮😮 (jaw dropping)
I get a bit depressed the more I learn but then I see doctors like Wolffenbuttel out there, or young GPs that seem to have better training or at least are more open minded, or the increase in understanding the genetic components of autoimmune diseases, or the small gains now being made by long covid researchers, or the ease with which we can connect online, ... and then I feel more hopeful. We can't fix broken systems but we can use our voices.
I think I might get Sally Pacholok's book for my GP. The same one who kicked me out of her office 6 years ago over B12 testing but who I still go back to & who still prescribes everything I need without any fuss (even with a suppressed TSH & all!). She still doesn't know I SI but she must wonder how my miraculous recovery happened. Time to come clean and maybe help her help others in her practice!
Funny enough I also gave a copy of Sally's book to my last surgery! I also bought Magazines that featured sufferers at that time (2008 I think)Martyn Hooper asked me if I would do an interview. Sorry I am not that way inclined. I kept it to myself, other than Martyn etc. You just think it's happened to you, not realizing its rife.
Anyway, the top brass of the NHS know where I live, as they came out then...... I Haven't moved !
They are most welcome, crash hats ready!
Hey Jade, We were kicked out at one appointment, told not to go back unless I was I'll.
Funny enough I also gave a copy of Sally's book to my last surgery! 👏👏👏
You just think it's happened to you, not realizing its rife.
I cried when I found this forum & saw others like me. I had no idea!
They are most welcome, crash hats ready!
LOL if only. Maybe they would learn something.
Hey Jade, We were kicked out at one appointment, told not to go back unless I was I'll.
Oh goodness what the hell is wrong with these people. They really think we're all making this up??? Yes I much more prefer to spend my time begging doctors than earning meaningful income & looking up papers on pubmed instead of going out for drinks on a friday night 🤪
Yes I lost my job !!!
You live and learn, I have probably learnt more in the last 15 years , and to be honest it's not what I would have chose to learn.
You just might want to come clean. Because now that she sees that you're so much better she's probably wondering why. And if you tell her why it could open her eyes. That's just it I was afraid to tell my doctors I was self-injecting but since I have told them suddenly they're ordering all kinds of the tests that I have asked for. And like I wrote in my post just now they're Crossing all their T's and dotting all their eyes. I've never seen so much movement on my medical records online. Yesterday the doctor I spoke to ask me about myself injecting and I told her I buy the vitamin B12 from Canada and then I leaned forward and I told her we all self-inject you guys just don't know it. Because we have to save our own lives.
Wow well done! 👏👏
I haven't told her yet because I don't want to jeapordize the other things I rely on her for: thyroid and adrenal insufficiency medication. And I haven't had the mental capacity to deal with it.... maybe soon 
I agree she's probably wondering why!
Yes, most clinicians practice defensively due to litigation. It’s even worse, if you know the patient is in the legal world.
It is my understanding, a health professional makes an assessment on signs and symptoms, comes to a conclusion (or diagnosis at that time), then decides on a plan of care/treatment - giving a rationale. It is the rationale that is the ‘get out clause’ or ‘covering own backside.’
I prefer a dose of ‘treat myself’. 😃
Doctors stopped mine many many times, fainted in surgery. They said if you take anti depressants I will give you B12 .... OK .....
(I couldn't get supplies from germany then)
Injection safely administered .... antidepressants in the bin.
Both my daughter and myself are nurses, both of us refused our injections after our surgery did mass retesting of all patients on b12 injections. We both fought with all information we could take to them and wrote to the practice manager and our replies were “the numbers don’t lie” our b12 levels looked good after blood tests!!!
This is disgraceful 🤬I can believe it id like to say I can’t but its everywhere how is this stuff not in the news??! I’m so sorry and angry for you that you are going through this, today I’m waiting for the head of radiology dept to call me, because last week I’d had a Ct scan with contrast they perform the scan twice in 10 minutes two big lots of radiation and too big lots of iodine, (apparently the first scan diddnt take?) I didn’t really know what was happening until I was out of the scan, I had a bad reaction they think I had a small bleed in the brain so I had yet another CT scan 10 hours after first two, on my head, (3CT scans in 10 hrs two lots idodine yet no one at the hospital can tell me if that can damage you or if it’s safe) it’s transpired they never wrote anything on my notes about what happened in the first scan! They lie and bend the rules when it suits them, I having the same problem with the GP over b12 injections my levels were179ng/l and 199ng/l I have glossitis periferal nueropathy, numbness tingling heart rate of 130-140 at rest large red blood cells and am literally bedbound, but GP said they won’t replace b12 until I go under 160ng/l my argument is why then is YOUR lab cut off 200ng/l? They make me sick going 200 miles from home next week to get private treatment and script and that dr (nhs consultant) took one look at my blood tests and said you pernicious anemia of this there is no doubt😡
Why employ doctors on £80 per hour£60.00 to fob people off, £15.00 to write a prescription for tablets that dont get to the root of the problems and £5.00 for there lack of knowledge.
I apologies to all those Doctors who do know what they are doing. Could you please educate the ones that leave people like Steph and the rest who are bed bound, existing in pain.
Thank you.
Sorry Steph, this is your platform, and I have hijacked it.
US cuts off at 200. But my doc said I was in the tank at 221, so he went above their cutoff and diagnosed me as No IF and b12D. So I'm pretty grateful for that because he could have just dismissed me. But he went with my symptoms. So I feel I'm pretty lucky after reading all of this. One thing the gastroenterologist told me yesterday was that the UK is far more advanced in their treatments in so many different areas. She said the US is just way more strict. She said the UK just seems to be more open about different treatments. We have a lot to learn from you guys. No one should go more than 3 decades with no medical answers.
"The numbers dont lie "...... I wonder what an active Blood test for B12 would say.
You cant argue with them !!!!
Thank you for implanting The numbers dont lie bit.
Perhaps when I get to have discussions with the Doctors I can use that. "MRI's dont lie"
😜
Awww I know Sallyann it’s horrendous it truly is it’s utter BS “the numbers don’t lie” and when they are in there deficient range then they are not correct and we have to test you again in 2 months lol you just can’t win utter utter BS, had enough I’ve had enough of them! I phoned viapath this morning to see if I can book in for full b12 analysis, (lady last week said I could!) today got told I need Gp referral lmao wta* it’s like your blocked everywhich way you go😖I 100% understand why people self inject it’s beyond shocking!! Get a copy of the mri seriously, don’t trust a word they say your own experience has taught you other wise sadly I hope you and your hubby get the awnser’s and results you so desperately need asap ❤️
To be quite honest steph, my hubby is the priority,If the medical profession want to lie so be it.
I will hold my head up high, tell the truth and Shame them.
As always it is the Victim that pays the consequence. The perpetrators get a slap on the back, or sent to prison , Doctors are suspended on full pay then we the tax payer pay for it. (in more ways than one)
It's no win situation ... but we all have a choice, accept it as it is and give in , or use your voice and experience to help others.
How they Sleep at night I
DO NOT KNOW.
Steph are looking to do testing on your own? I can send you some links.
Hi Jade yes I am thank you that would be so helpful, as this viapath group have totally changed what they advertised, so anything you can send would be great thank you so much again ❤️
Did you go via the right viapath? There seems to be a clinical and a consumer section
Ok i have confirmation from the thyroid group this is the right one:
nutris.viapath.co.uk/pages/...
"Not currently offering postal testing at moment
So would need to visit clinic in London"
And there is also medichecks. Includes everything (active b12, mma, folate, full blood count, intrinsic factor abs), except homocysteine. But it is pricey.
medichecks.com/products/com...
On thursdays the price may be discounted and/or you may be able to use the thyroiduk 10% discount code: thyroiduk.org/help-and-supp...
I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I did. After getting kicked out of my GPs office, I did full private testing on my own. IFAbs were negative, mma normal, etc, so i figured GP would not change her mind. I started SI to avoid any further damage. Hopefully you won't be in that position but you already have documented low B12 so if GP won't help....
I was just told yesterday, I didn't get a homocysteine test because it has to be put on ice right away after your blood is drawn. So it's a different process and a little bit more of a bigger deal. That may be why it's not included
It's like I said to Jade, we learn something new every day. In stead of Doctors saying they don't do that test, an explanation on why would end O.KDoc fare enough.
Right. Just tell us the truth. When my doctor first diagnosed the B12 deficiency, and I was only getting one injection a month I wrote to them and I asked them please be honest, is the insurance company keeping me from getting more B12 injections? and I never got an answer. That's when I started buying my own B12. Not getting an answer in my eyes, is a big fat YES.
What's also ridiculous is for example, my mother's doctor (in the US) prescribed a vial of 30mg/mL - which is good for one shot every day - and told her to do *one shot per month* 🤣🤣🤦♀️ Like ooookaaaaayyyy 🙄
Hahaha, NOT!!! 🤣
I still giggle every time I think about so. So ridiculous 🤣🤣
Slow down everybody I cant keep up with the comments 😂😂😂😂😂
Ah, interesting, I hadn't realized. Good to know, thanks! I looked it up on the labcorp website and indeed they say
"Plasma: It is important to centrifuge blood samples for plasma collection immediately after collection to separate the plasma from the blood cells. If immediate centrifugation is not possible, collected blood specimens should be kept on ice and centrifuged within an hour."
hello everyone , I do not write very often, But thank you to everyone especially wedgewood who has helped in the past, The subject of defensive medicine is and has been of great concern to me for many years. Here's a quote from my GP at the time (1999). I was asking a lot of questions as i was concerned about my child's health, which clearly upset those who supposedly care about our health especially the health of a child. I did make a complaint but I was not doing it repeatedly. Quote "Sadly, if it gets widely known that a patient or relative repeatedly makes makes complaints against doctors, then doctors generally will practice defensive medicine which may not always be in the patients interest"
The word "generally" really got to me. I do not believe this letter was written out of concern but more to scare me. The patient was a child of 12 years. I was terrified to say the least and took this as a threat. I can't go into details at the moment but I believe the defensive medicine is happening to me at the moment as a follow on. My complaint was dragged out and never resolved I did not have a diagnosis of B12 at the time and it felt like a fight to get the diagnosis in 2018. I hope the quote is helpful in that DM is not imagined.
Stay safe and alert everyone my thoughts are with you even if i do not write often.
"Generally" don't do it or else !So sad!
Blackmail ... if you have antidepressants I will give you B12 injection.
😱😱
This is the is the reason I posted months ago about Complaints ...... Should you go ahead or not.
Are we making a genuine complaint or are we cutting our own throats.
should you complain or not - we lose whatever we do. However knowledge is power, if you have the time complain -read every word they write and point out their errors, get copies of records before you complain if possible, and give them them the headache of all headaches -but if you are unwell / untreated with B12 put yourself first as complaining will most likely be as exhausting as PA and B12 combined. I was never offered antidepressants for depression but was eventually offered them for pain much later which I refused- but it appears from med records I was given anti psychotic injections instead of B12 injection - to dumb me down I believe.
WHAT !
I could write so much more about things happening around here, population of 750 people
Which are quite depressing really, when there are 65 + Million people who could no doubt write things a lot worse.
Wow, that is very scary. I'm so sorry this is happening to you and your child. No one likes to know we are being managed and pacified by our doctors so we'll shut up. I feel something like that is happening to me too. Why are all my records being cleaned up? I have not complained, but I told them I'm self injecting..... Yesterday the gastro doctor made a point to tell me that doctors hands are tied and that they're afraid of being sued (not by me persay) those were her words to me yesterday. Good luck with your battle. I wish you and your child the best. 🦋
Yes it was scary when my child was so neglected. My child is now an adult. I am now angry that my life has been so controlled and the neglect or malpractice is continuing. I have come close to death twice, I am only recovering through self injecting. I have always told them I am self injecting, some have denied knowledeg of this. I am sure you are right in that your med records are being changed, mine were but I was lucky enough to get records before the major changes.stay safe
I'm really very sorry. It is really a shame that our lives are defined by our illnesses rather than our hobbies and the things we love and our children and our vacations and all the happy things were supposed to be doing! That's what our lives should be defined by not by this. And I'm so very sorry that you've had a lifetime of suffering. It's so wrong. You should come here more often because you're not alone. Somebody will always be here to give you support. I know it's not like being there in person, but this is a great forum with great people who really care. 🦋💙🦋
I agree with you and thank you so much for your support and the support of others on the forum. I would come more often but I am trying to get myself well enough to fight on not just for myself but for others as well. It would be so easy to tell the whole story but I feel unable to do so at the moment. I will let you know if anything positive happens
Well good luck with your battle. And I hope you get everything you need and find all the answers that you need. Stay strong.🫂
You will always be listened to no matter how bad or embarrassed you feel. Your shoulders have been carrying this for years and no doubt brought back terrible times. You have our support and our backing in your fight, Your Health is your priority right now, and I will speak for everyone in wishing you strength and best wishes. Thankyou for enlightening us with a small snippet of what you have endured. Best wishes
Thank you Sallyanni. I hope what little amount I have written has been helpful, although i feel I should point out that I do not feel any embarrassment but hope one day that those who did this to my family will and more Bye for now
It's so funny that you posted this. The last couple of weeks my online medical records have been being updated continuously. Every test, every appointment, every referral, has been updated. Like as if they're crossing their T's and dotting all their eyes. I started self-injecting and I started requesting different tests and I started sticking up for myself. And I started searching for new doctors. And they are all being very very nice to me. Yesterday I had an appointment and spoke to a doctor for an hour. That never happens 3 to 5 minutes is all I've really ever had with a doctor maybe 15 minutes if it's something serious. I have never spoken to a doctor for an hour. They ordered all kinds of blood work for me. And I just got a letter from my doctor saying that he has not abandoned me as my doctor and that he will continue to treat me but that he just doesn't understand the whole B12 thing so he wants to refer me to appropriate doctors. So I'm just wondering have I scared them with all my letters? Is this"Defensive Medicine"? Why suddenly is everybody being so careful? I told the doctor yesterday nobody cares about my life more than I do. And having gone undiagnosed for 37 years for pernicious anemia and 35 years for Lyme disease, I started having to take things into my own hands. To save my own life. And she said she completely understands. She we've said doctors have to stick to the protocol or be sued. She admitted they can not deviate. I had 4 phone calls from different doctors and nurses, yesterday. I think myself injecting has them a little bit freaked out
They are shaking in there boots. Hubby is not Mr anymore, they address him by his christian name.Is it a shame they didnt listen years ago.
When my medical records were altered, I questioned them, why are you doing it. It was as in your case of telling the truth, and being ignored same thing with B12, mine dont know anything about b12, yours doesn't understand the B12 thing. All a way of saying SORRY without saying SORRY for fear of litigation.
At least now you are getting recognised, but for all the wrong reasons.
Right. Do you think the old saying bad publicity is just as good as good publicity because it's getting attention? I don't know
The only observation I can make is Doctors are now break rank and revealing details of which haven't been aired before because they are frustrated and fed up of being told what to do by policy makers, who sit behind a desk drawing rules up, with no real knowledge of what goes on.Our Specialist is totally Private because he was being dictated to by the NHS, Now he his free to treat the Patients , which is what he wants to do. (OK the patient pays and he earns more)
A Nurse wrote she had to go to a training seminar, she went along only to be lectured on how to fob the public off. She walked out and said that is not we are employed to do. (I dare say she got an earful)
Moral is at rock bottom.
Right! And I'll tell you with the pandemic and everything doctors have been through lately they are burned out. The medical profession has never been taxed this bad before. This has really taken its toll on the entire medical field. Things Are crazy right now. And we don't know what it's all about because it's all hidden from us and all we can do is speculate. But in a way I feel very sorry for the doctors over the last two and a half three years. It must have been hell to deal with this pandemic. But that doesn't mean they have the right to Gaslight us.
B12deficency and migraines 
Anyone used A. Pemberton - Functional Medicine and Nutrigenomics practitioner, Leeds
PAS blog by Professor Wolffenbuttel.
What's wrong with Drs?
Shingles Vaccination - any pointers please?
