Most people have had at least one negative experience with Drs. I'd like to know if we can put ourselves in their shoes, to figure out why the act like they do. I will start with some ideas:
1. From the moment they are accepted for Medicine age 17, they are told they are the special chosen ones, super intelligent, etc etc. The beginnings of the messiah complex?
2. Do medicine for the money not because it is a calling.
3. Live in a bubble with medical students, and clueless about far more advanced subjects. Egos continually massaged so graduate from a messiah to god complex.
4. Society and culture venerate the Dr. The fate is sealed.
I could go on but interested in other people's ideas.
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Yahaci
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You're right. I also think medicine has been 'dumbed' down. Doctors rely too much on the NHS website and blood tests. I think it's a bit like the driving test. Once you pass most people forget everything they learnt.
Back in the day doctors had to rely on their training and common sense. They needed to know much more and get more involved in diagnosis.
I was bored and there was nothing else on so I've just watched an old Benny Hill TV show. In one sketch Benny goes to his doctor complaining about a bad back. The doctor tells him it's all in his mind because he's stressed and depressed and prescribes tranquilizers. Benny thanks him and leaves the room. And then the audience sees that Benny has a knife stuck in his back. Ringing any bells?
god like complex you cannot know as much I do I’ve trained to do this … and prescribing nurse’s who now think they are Drs and poke their nose in where it’s not wanted .
Agree to all of those and the fact that if anyone dare question their decision (in the most polite fashion) seems to put their backs up, which brings the shutters down. Only had one telephone consult with a new doctor who was in agreement and by the time the face to face consult came around she had been ‘moved on’ 🙁
I shouldn't laugh but the same happened to me with a consultant, by the time my next apptointment came around she had been moved on to anothe hospital ! I was in the middle of being anticoagultaded.
It makes me wonder just how trained these Drs and consultants are ? Because I questioned my gp about the treatment of B12 and emailed her the nice guide lines our relationship had apparently broken down and I now find myself under another gp - never seen him as yet.
It's as if they throw their dummies out of their pram's these days when they dont like confrontation.
I agree so you can imagine my utter shock when I sent my Rheum an article. I expected him to poo poo it. Instead he came back very enthusiastic, telling me it was excellent and saying he'd not known about it, so was very glad to learn. I think I most admire his humility and honesty.
Its very often been the case that I 'help' drs a lot more than they've ever helped me. But mostly they just take, without gratitude and never feel slightly inclined to return the favour.
I had a dr once - going back some years now who had never heard of Hypoparathyroidism. He told me is I were going to be his patient it was his duty to learn about the condition ! I had great respect for that Dr.
I am sure surgerys get a rake off for pushing antidepressants where as B12 being a vitamin they get nothing for hence not wanting to prescribe it. It makes my blood boil just thinking about how services are run these days. 😡
You can spend many a happy hour trying to get through to be told all appointments have gone ring back tomorrow. At least on here we can let a bit of the built up venom out. 🪱
I remember reading once that GP surgeries got extra funding for diagnosis of dementia....at the time I wondered about all the B12 deficiency sufferers who go onto develop dementia.
I believe there is a lot of extra funding coming to support mental health but at the same time, I wonder about the patients whose mental health issues are due to B12 deficiency.
100% Sleepybunny I feel the exact same way. Nursing homes in the US cost upwards of 9000.00 a month, more if you need meds dispensed or want in room meals. Imagine money from dementia patients insurance. I took some printouts from PAS and my little cards I made, to the care facility in my town, in hopes at least one of the nurses reads it and learns and helps someone. I think care facilities are full of undiagnosed PA sufferers.
We put Doctors on a pedestal and expect them to have the answers and solutions to our medical problems.
I learned very early on in life, when I lost my father to bowel cancer, that Doctors do not always spot the warning signs. They are individual human beings with different takes on life. Just as we are all individuals with different pressures on us - sometimes we have good days o a job, alot of times we have bad days.
It is a blessing to find a person/Doctor who is kind, open and helpful and you feel you can connect with.
Doctors get things wrong. Yet the public at large assume what they say is gospel. This can cost you your life in the long run. So if you know something's not right, get a second opinion. A third, a fourth, a fifth. Keep pushing. Don't accept any less. Be your biggest advocate.
Or, in my case, you will end up thinking you can be your own Doctor and self medicating. Which is extremely dangerous and not advised.
If the public stops assuming Doctors know more than they do, Doctors will stop having a messiah complex.
Many Doctors are very good people with good intentions.
I belive the future of healthcare is in AI and machine learning.
They're already finding amazing results in this technology when it comes to learning and education. More and more teachers, nurses and doctors just cannot keep up with the demands and expectations we have of them.
At least, if technology could augment their delivery it could mean standards increase. So a Doctor will at least be more likely to follow all due protocols if they're stressed less with support from technologies.
With our lives now so remote, it is surely the next phase - AI, augmented reality, machine learning to screen, scan and potentially diagnose a number of options for a clinician to review.
We need machines to be reliable and accurate. and if they have a bad day we call IT !!
I think it will be better. It's also needed in the law.
Two of the oldest, most powerful and lauded professions, are actually rotten and full of prejudice and corruption. That's why I'd prefer them replaced by neutral AI. Which doesn't discriminate etc..
So many miscarriages of justice, because a person is unattractive. I wonder how feeble a baby murderer's sentence will be if she is attractive?
Machine don't discriminate, judge, or suffer from cognitive bias. For example, B12 is a women's problem so I won't look for it. Or 'this person seems distressed, they have job stress'.
A machine could analyse the symptoms and medical history and produce a number of results. It would then be physician who could explore those results with the patient. But at least it would not leave stones unturned or options left out due to biases "you're too young/old/fat/white/black'. A computer could be more accurate and uncovering an issue that a Doctor may never have thought of.
We would have to say goodbye to relationship-based one-on-one Doctoring but be more consultative.
The way things are going, with 2 week waiting lists just to speak to a GP, it's surely the only way we can move forward. GP's and nurses can't handle it anymore and the whole thing will sink before long without the help of technology.
That's the world we live in. We need to embrace it
They create the problem so they can sell the solution. It's a tactic. That said, technology is the future.
Alot of our data was sold to private companies without our consent. Part of the reason why there is so much pointless data entry for every visit, is because its being used for the AI of tomorrow.
The idea of AI is that if you have a large volume of data you can see then predict patterns you can't when it is too small.
And do we think the availability of AI will prevent doctors/ group practices (businesses) from peddling drugs that big pharma want to sell us? Computer systems can be hacked/ fixed/ corrupted/ manipulated.
I think that depends on several factors. Integrity of the provider, how the algorithms work and the security measures.
It could should likelihoods and better inform a Doctor who hasn't seen a patient before, giving them the whole picture and pointing them in the right direction.
It could save money in the long run.
At the moment the system is corrupted anyway if Big Pharma are using it to sell us drugs. Computers can be programmed to not be biased and supersede a Doctor. Patients could be better informed with more medical options.
It may sound sad to say, but I often prefer to interact with a computer over a human.
Humans are very judgemental. And a good outcome at the Drs depends on the rapport you build or don't build. If they think you're anxious or emotional, Doctors think you need therapy. Or they tell you you have health anxiety and to go away.
A computer is not judgemental of how I present myself. A computer will not be offended if try to offer some thoughts on what I think could be wrong. A computer can give me a set of questions to complete and take them at face value while knowing my character and history and basing decision on data.
GPs generally always make me feel pretty bad when I see them. And they can also miss things, or not think they're important to check. Computers can be programmed not to miss vital clues.
A computer can serve my needs in the way I want them to be served. I don't have to 'sell' my illness or health concerns or be judged on what I tell a Doctor.
You wouldn't go to get groceries and sell yourself - you're the customer buying thei products at face value. But in the UK, getting medical help depends on how well you present yourself, your symptoms and how balanced you are in doing so. If you're in anyway worried about your condition in the UK, you've got no chance of being believed. Or if they think you're rude or offending their ego, they shut down.
Sad but that's the way things are going. And when AI takes over healthcare we will look back and wonder how on earth anyone got treated correctly before we had technology at the helm.
Many of the good Drs were pensioned off but if and when you find a one kindly let me know..... If I we were to find one I doubt very much if we would get an appoinment.
To be greated with a bit of courtesy when entering the consulting room would be a bonus ! Drs cant cope with more than one ailment at a time these days before a hand is raised telling the patient they will have to make another appointment to discuss the other issue.
I have lost all faith in the medical profession and sick off having to constantly battle with them. It's like a post code lottery these days who your seen by.
I think you're right about the god complex!
There is also the issue (minor as it is) where people are trying to get off work by faking something, so the GP assumes everyone is trying it on.
And in my case my narcissistic mother (who was also an alcoholic) had poisoned me when I was a kid. She didn't want to go to jail for attempted murder and persuaded many a doctor not to listen to anything I say "she's not sick, she's lazy".
A few years ago blood test showed I'd something wrong with my liver, and I was low in 4 different vitamins (B12 being one). I wasn't given anything for any of these issues. Like excuse me? how do you look at blood test results and still think "yep, she's lazy, nothing wrong with her" ~('.')~
I'm self dosing (oral spray) for the B12, I think my diet covers the other things, but the doc never mentioned them again in subsequent blood tests. Not that I trust her to actually tell me, I'll need to ask the practice nurse next time I'm down there
Probably in the same way they looked at my blood results told me all was normal when in fact 4 of the results clearly stated over range - high.
Many drs of today are like our Mps who are nothing other than glorified sales men / women who only look at the figures but hav'nt a clue of what is going on under the bonnet.
If I had been in your shoes I would ask for a second opinion.
Now crippled and under private consultant, he did get a blood test via surgery and the doctor said dont worry ........ ;(Christian name) we will get to the bottom of this. How can they say that when they didn't want to know !!!!!
It comes to something when you go into a certain hospital ( you know the one ) for heart failure and some loony spots your going for an endoscopy and mistakenly puts you on a gastric ward.
Sadly, this is the tenth opinion. They're all singing from the same "she fat, lazy and eats too much junk food" hymn sheet that my mother gave them.
They keep telling me I have Kallmann's Syndrome. I've no recollection of being diagnosed with that, I remember being told I could well have Multiple Sclerosis, but no mention of Kallmann's. Before a nurse listened to me and sent bloods away I was bemoaning my lack of energy etc (B12 deficiency related as it turned out) and the doc said "oh is that your Kallmann's Syndrome?" all bright and cheerful. She clearly has no idea what Kallmann's Syndrome is, I pointed out what it is to her, wow she didn't like that. I've asked them all repeatedly to give me the name of the doctor who said I had Kallmann's Syndrome, and they can't. Or won't.
One older doc (who retired a good few years ago) used to open a drawer where he had samples reps have given him and hand you something. Wouldn't tell you what it was, or why he was giving it to you, just order you to "try this". I'm not your lab rat mate, not happening!
I'm in Ireland, and I'm not going to try accessing my records till I find a new clinic I can go to, I get the distinct impression my files will mysteriously disappear!
I'm 100% sure I do not have Kallmann's, I have none of the listed signs or symptoms - if I do, it's not Kallman's it's from childhood abuse.
I did read somewhere (on a medical website) that MS could be caused by ingesting toxins (didn't say what) but that fits with the abuse. I may have developed PA from the abuse, and a doctor thought it was MS. Since I can't get any doctor to listen to a word I say I'm not going to find out!
My feeling is that medicine is fundamentally to do with accumulated knowledge rather than than experimental or empirical science. There is a mental facility that makes for a successful librarian, archivist and so on and it's certainly possible that doctors will preferentially have this particular knack.
During a recent consultation I mentioned to my Doc that a med I take (amlodipine) has a 4-5% side-effect of fatigue. I had hoped to take myself out of the category of simple-minded patient, to show I was someone whose views were even worth considering but more so to stir his thinking away from fixating on blood tests as the only indicator of B12d.
His immediate and enthusiastic response was to list 3 of my meds that, though they had no connection whatsoever with B12d or PA, also had this side-effect and to suggest a trial to see which might be responsible for my fatigue. This of course meant he was sticking to his existing guns, it was to him nothing to do with B12.
I disagree its about accumulated knowledge. I think its more about the latest bells and whistles, shiny new wonder drug.
If it were about accumulated knowledge, then fundamentals like vitamins, would be the first thing to check.
For the past 25 years, what happens when you go to the GP is they try to fit your symptoms to their preferred drug. The most preferred is the one that gives THEM the most ££. They do not bother to observe you, look at your tongue, your eyelids, take your pulse etc.. No, instead they half listen with eyes fixed on their computer, and tell you your probably depressed and wouldn't you like some Prozac.
If only they used the years of accumulated knowledge, to heal and cure, not to disable for life which is what they did to me.
Thanks for getting back to me. My thoughts are that there are different types of intelligence one of which is often associated with medics. Docs etc have to read and memorise masses of information. Sort of rote learning. This unfortunately doesn't lead to thinking 'outside the box'. In my experience Docs stick to their existing stock of learning and seldom make leaps into the unknown. This type of thinking is furthed reinforced by the need to "Above all cause no harm" which I think may actually be in the Hippocratic Oath. Not being rude to them but creative thinking is discouraged.
As to the meds I mentioned these are in my daily meds unrelated to PA or B12d but that could cause fatigue. As I said I introduced them in attempt to move him away from his fixed view that if my bloods say I don't have B12 difficiency then that's that. The test don't lie.
Cheers
P. S. I'm not sure that UK NHS docs have much opportunity to cash in on prescription meds.
I remember it being said that medicine wasn't about intelligence but the ability to memorise.
Education based on text books is poor across the board. Despite having a lot myself, I am far more interested in creative intelligence.
Drs are not paid per prescription perhaps. They are incentivised in other ways. Get gifts, holidays, wined and dined. But MSM doesn't mention that much.
If you are offended by the negative comments about Drs. Then I can confidently say, people have commented based on their personal experiences. Many of those experiences have been negative and cost people their health, often very seriously. Positive experiences, have also been listed and stand out because they are so rare.
Personal experience remains valid ''evidence'', unless by evidence you mean a study, with lots of participants, questionnaires, controls and statistical analysis. Maybe even meta data analysis. All very ''scientific'' sanitised and clean. Much like what is produced by Pharmaceutical companies. The type where the data is massaged to show anything they want, whilst brushing aside less comfortable truths. I prefer the litmus test of real, lived and emotional experiences. That is truth. The rest is window dressing.
I’m offended by your negative statements about doctors:
From the moment they are accepted for Medicine age 17, they are told they are the special chosen ones, super intelligent, etc etc. The beginnings of the messiah complex?2. Do medicine for the money not because it is a calling.3. Live in a bubble with medical students, and clueless about far more advanced subjects. Egos continually massaged so graduate from a messiah to god complex. 4. Society and culture venerate the Dr. The fate is sealed.
I asked you what evidence you had for making them and all I got from you and others was teeth gnashing!!
I do not doubt people here feel let down by their GPS and to the other person who asked I have been here for a long time and am well educated and well versed in PA snd EPI.
There may well be prople who are told they are special (usually by parents). What evidence do you have prople do medicine for money? That’s my question. Having been a HR Director in the NHS for 13 years my experience and the evidence I have is quite different and I’m perfectly entitled to disagree with you and to challenge you. Behat evidence do you have that doctors in tracing live in a bubble and aren’t educated about subjects outside medicine. Listen to that out loud; it’s ludicrous.
Those are the points I’m making. Your points needed challenge because in my opinion they are not true they are just your frankly uninformed opinion.
The evidence is the negative experiences and the poor treatment/lack of treatment/bad attitudes people have received from doctors and in many cases also nurses and consultants. Do you actually read much on this forum?
perhaps you would like to come and nurse my hubby for a few weeks. Listen day after day with the pain he is suffering due to substandard .... No not even substandard
Patients can leave reviews on this website (can be anonymous) and sometimes GP surgeries/hospitals etc respond. Put "B12 deficiency" or "B12 injections" in search box to find comments people with b12 issues have made.
If I could go back in time, I would record many of the appointments I had. I had no way of proving just how unhelpful and unpleasant some of them were.
If GP/specialist is unhelpful, may be worth asking to record an appointment.
GPs will not be keen but if suffering from brainfog, fatigue, cognitive issues, memory problems, pain .... any symptoms that may affect understanding/memory of what's said then patient would have a good case to be allowed to on disability grounds.
Ask in a letter to GP practice, well in advance of any appointment and mention symptoms that mean a recording is necessary. Keep copies/screenshots of letters and any replies.
I believe GPs are likely to be kinder if a witness is present so consider asking if you can take someone to face to face appointments. Make sure person is supportive and preferably knows about B12 deficiency.
Consider having someone in the same room for an online/tel consultation and phone on loudspeaker.
To be fair to GPs, I don't think that it is possible to diagnose a condition like PA in 10 minutes. The symptom of fatigue common in PA patients can be a symptom of many diseases. The way to tackle this is to industrialise access to test - tests are cheap, clinical knowledge is very expensive.
If someone has fatigue, it makes sense to do a full set of Thyroid tests and B12 tests including not just B12 but MMA and homocysteine as well. The current arrangement where you have one test followed by another depending on whether it is out of the reference range is so expensive; it's the appointment with the clinician that costs the money.
The way clinicians interpret results also makes no sense. if someone has low B12 and is not a vegan, it needs to be investigated. Being told that it's normal because it's in the reference range lacks common sense.
The community diagnostic hubs proposed by Mr Javid is the right answer but it has not been endorsed by the BMA so it probably won't happen. The people who work in diagnostics (phlebotomists, radiographers and lab technicians) don't earn high wages (apart from radiologists). We need to have more diagnostics people (and pay them better) and rely less on very expensive clinicians.
Symbolic AI as mentioned has been mature for over 30 years; the sub symbolic AI needed to interpret scans matured about 15 years ago and coupled with cheap real time ultrasound scanners should result in a health revolution.
In the short term, the NHS should move to community diagnostics where patients discuss their symptoms in a forum (like Healthunlocked) and suggest what tests need to be done. These tests need to be easily available patients. Discussions with clinicians should occur after the tests have been done.
Patients who prefer an arrangement where all tests are arranged by a clinician should be able to continue with this current system, but it needs to be made clear that this is incredibly expensive.
We need our politicians to change the NHS to a system where patients can authorise their own tests. The argument against this is that this will lead to over diagnosis but I am very doubtful about this; nobody enjoys having a blood test.
Thye live in a different reality from us, they are over worked and do not have the time to explore medical issues outside of work. Their training is almost all provided by drug companys these days who make no money and infact would lose money if they trained doctors in regard to issues such as PA. What we need is for GP surgerys to start to except training from patient expert groups such as this or charitys that support people with health issues. WE need a bridge between thier reality in which we are just the patient and getting things wrong and they are the experts becuase they are doctors. They need to find out how much we know.
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