Apple cider vinegar and PA? - Pernicious Anaemi...

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Apple cider vinegar and PA?

indywindy
indywindy
33 Replies

Struggling with many issues other than my PA, so have also added Apple cider vinegar to my morning regime for other reasons (1 tablespoon in glas of water). But. . .is there a risk with the lining of the stomach and the pH, in that ACV decreases the acidity? Is it putting on fire to the gasoline??

I'm managing my PA with Hydroxycobalamin shot every 7 weeks, and trying hard to keep my ferritin within range, but it seems okay these days.

TIA

33 Replies
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wedgewood

That cider apple drink will be beneficial . As you have PA, your stomach acid will be depleted or non-existent. ( Hypochlorhydria/Achlorhydria) The Intrinsic Factor Antibodies that have caused your PA , attack the parietal cells in your stomach which produce stomach acid as well as the Intrinsic Factor . Especially good to drink diluted Organic Cider Vinegar with the mother before a meal with protein .( I get a 5 litre container of Biona for £14.99 from Amazon ) it is definitely recommended to take an acidic drink before or during meals with protein ,when one has PA . Some people take lime juice . If there is a serious lack of stomach acid , some PA patients take Betaine Hydrochloric acid with Pepsin capsules with a protein meal ,to help with digestion ( also from Amazon ) - Best wishes .

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fbirder
fbirder
in reply to wedgewood

Actually, I would recommend not taking the acid drink before a meal, but with the meal.

I try to mimic what happens naturally. In normal people, eating food stimulates the production of gastrin, which does various things, including switching on of acid production. The acid then lowers the pH of the stomach, and this switches gastrin production off.

By drinking the acid first - you are exposing the stomach to acid undiluted by food and you'll be switching the gastrin production off before it has started. This isn't a good idea because gastrin is also responsible for -

Switching on production of pepsinogen (which makes pepsin, important for protein digestion).

Promoting stomach contractions to churn the food.

Relaxes the pyloric sphincter, allowing food to pass from the stomach into the small intestine.

Switches on pancreatic secretions (important for protein digestion) and bile secretion (important for fat digestion).

So you really do want the body to produce gastrin when you eat, but you want to stop it at the end of a meal. That's why I have my lime juice halfway through, and immediately after, a meal.

13 likes
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wedgewood
wedgewood
in reply to fbirder

Thanks for that . Sounds the right thing to do .

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indywindy
indywindy
in reply to fbirder

Thank you very much for this. I have been trying hard to understand the digestion process, and this gives good meaning. I'm supplementing with HCL tablets at every meal, cause I'm so bad at digesting my food, especially proteins, and in particular animal proteins. Have had cancer, and thus also limiting my animal protein intake because of this. But the tablets give good help, also to plant proteins like beans.

I shall leave my ACV shot till my breakfast time. Also. . . thanks for your many enlightening replies in here.

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indywindy
indywindy
in reply to wedgewood

Thanks for your reply and confirmation. I'm glad that it's not contributing to a worsening of the PA.

And thanks for your many enlightening replies in here.

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Nackapan

I have apple cider vinegar with'mother' I put it on my food to add some acidity for digestion. Or juice .

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pvanderaa

To address your question about risk to the lining of the stomach from the lower pH (more acidic), the cells in the lining of the stomach are specific to creating the acidic environment of the stomach.

The parietal cells in the lining produce both the acid and the alkaline components. In PA, these cells don’t work correctly due the nerve damage to the vagus nerve which connects these cell to the brain or the cells have been destroyed by an antibody.

The sensation of hunger as well as the stomach growling from the smell of food are all supported by the vagus nerve.

The symptoms of heartburn in the esophagus arise from both too acidic and to alkaline so it can be hard to separate the two conditions. So using a logbook to record what you eat as well as when the symptoms show up can help eliminate the different causes. There can be an additional delay between cause and symptoms to confuse things even more.

I take a couple of tablespoons of salsa with meals to support digestion and reduce heartburn.

Have you tried going gluten and dairy free?

Also has heliobacter pylori infection been ruled out as this bacteria attacks the lining of the stomach.

5 likes
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indywindy
indywindy
in reply to pvanderaa

Thanks very much. This is all very interesting. I´ve gone a through a long period of stress which can also be connected to the vagus nerve - no idea that PA also had this connection. H. Polyri and gastritis has been ruled out (endoscopy), no apperant gluten intolerance, but have tried gluten free period to see any difference. Stopped dairy 4 years ago for many reasons. Salsa...hm...goes with some food, but not all;-) Thanks for your time and elaboration.

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fbirder
fbirder
in reply to indywindy

PA has no connection with the vagus nerve.

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pvanderaa
pvanderaa
in reply to fbirder

The vagus nerve is just as susceptible to nerve damage from a B12D as any other nerve in the body. PA is one cause of a B12D.

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fbirder
fbirder
in reply to pvanderaa

No it is not. B12 deficiency tends to affect the peripheral nerves, the spinal cord, and the optic nerve. It hardly ever affects other cranial nerves. When I had fourth cranial nerve palsy my neurologist said it was definitely not caused by my PA.

In the whole of the scientific literature I can find one case where the vagus nerve may have been affected.

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deniseinmilden

So where do they get sub acute degeneration of the spinal chord from as one of the consequences of long term PA??

Can you explain to me how the spinal chord is peripheral??

In a way, as the stomach lining is a surface, surely it does have peripheral - at least "end of the line" nerves?

Also please don't forget that everyone is different!

My B12d definitely affected the nerves in my stomach. For 20+ years I never, ever felt thirsty and used to have to be very careful not to get dehydrated. The nerves repaired after a couple of years of treatment and now I feel thirsty again!

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deniseinmilden
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fbirder

"So where do they get sub acute degeneration of the spinal chord from as one of the consequences of long term PA??"

Read what I wrote.

I was describing what happens - including damage to the spinal cord. What doesn't happen is damage to the vagus nerve.

Yes we are all different. But taking what you believe (with zero evidence) has happened to you and generalising it isn't a good idea.

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pvanderaa
pvanderaa
in reply to indywindy

Sorry the we’ve hijacked this thread. I think you will find that stress and worry consume B12. If you’re already deficient, this can put you over the edge especially with prolonged or very intense stress.

I think this edge is where neurological damage starts to not get repaired.

There is a normal maintenance process that cleans up the cells of the nerves and repopulates them. It’s when this maintenance process removes more cells of the myelin sheath than it replaces that permanent nerve damage results.

B12 regulates the chemicals involved in this maintenance process and when it is low, neurological damage occurs.

The vagus nerve is just another nerve but it’s function in stress is the get the stomach to crank up the acid production for that fight or flight instinct the we have evolved.

Meditation helps calm things down and allows the stomach to return to normal rhythms.

PA is s genetic condition where antibodies are generated that attack either the parietal cells or the Intrinsic Factor (IF) that is needed in the gut to extract B12 from protein (meat, eggs, milk, fish) or to recycle it from the bile from the liver where excess B12 is filtered out of the blood.

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indywindy
indywindy
in reply to pvanderaa

Quite all right . . It all adds to more knowledge.

Yes, it makes perfect sense with the stress/vagus nerve/b12 deficiency and followed by the onset of the PA.

Good to see the connection, rather than feeling struck by lightning.

Thanks a lot🤗

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fbirder

"The parietal cells in the lining produce both the acid and the alkaline components. In PA, these cells don’t work correctly due the nerve damage to the vagus nerve which connects these cell to the brain or the cells have been destroyed by an antibody."

PA doesn't stop GPCs working because of vagus nerve damage. If the vagus nerve were damaged to that extent you would be dead.

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indywindy
indywindy
in reply to fbirder

Thank you for your reply and elaboration. I´m a bit nervous of the parietal cells going out of control and don´t want them to detoriate. Trying to calm my vagus nerve with meditation and choir singing:)

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fbirder
fbirder
in reply to indywindy

If you have PA then you have no need to worry about your parietal cells 'going out of control' because you almost certainly do not have any. Pernicious Anaemia is caused by the immune system killing Gastric Parietal Cells. It has nothing at all to do with vagus nerves.

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pvanderaa
pvanderaa
in reply to fbirder

I must be a walking zombee as I’m not dead. I can only speak from experience of a partial vagotomy surgery on my vagus nerve that was done 26 years ago to reduce stomach acid from thought or stress.

So I have a B12D that is not PA per se.

The results are the same, parietal cells that don’t work.

Since IF is generated from the same cells, it is not fully functional either.

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fbirder
fbirder
in reply to pvanderaa

So your experience doesn't support the statement - "In PA, these cells don’t work correctly due the nerve damage to the vagus nerve".

In PA the cells don't work because they are killed by the immune system.

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pvanderaa
pvanderaa
in reply to fbirder

I’m of the opinion that nerve damage can be caused by a PA induced B12D and that nerve damage to the vagus nerve can reduce acid and IF in the stomach, which can impact the B12 recycling mechanism and lead to further deficiency. It’s a downward spiral.

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fbirder
fbirder
in reply to pvanderaa

B12 deficiency tends to affect the peripheral nerves, the spinal cord, and the optic nerve. It hardly ever affects other cranial nerves. When I had fourth cranial nerve palsy my neurologist said it was definitely not caused by my PA.

In the whole of the scientific literature I can find one case where the vagus nerve may have been affected.

1 like
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pvanderaa
pvanderaa
in reply to fbirder

You’re forgetting the brain itself and the loss of short term memory as well as the brain fog.

I’m pretty certain that PA / B12D doesn’t discriminate between nerves.

Unfortunately the Drs only seem to accept the damage to the nerves that are easily measured.

Long peripheral nerves get affected first simply because they are long.

See Photoali66 message below.

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Photoali66

Hi pvanderaa.

You may find this interesting:- One serious side effect of a vagotomy is a vitamin B12 deficiency later in life – perhaps after about 10 years – that is similar to pernicious anemia. The vagus normally stimulates the stomach's parietal cells to secrete acid and intrinsic factor. Intrinsic factor is needed to absorb vitamin B12 from food. The vagotomy reduces this secretion and ultimately leads to the deficiency, which, if left untreated, causes nerve damage, tiredness, dementia, paranoia, and ultimately death.

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pvanderaa

That is and has been my situation. Now fbirder needs to see the literature to believe it.

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fbirder
fbirder
in reply to pvanderaa

You're confusing the cart and the horse.

You claim that a vagotomy can cause PA. That is wrong. It can, however, cause a B12 deficiency.

You also claim that a B12 deficiency can damage the vagus nerve. With absolutely no evidence.

A vagotomy only affects a small portion of the vagus nerve. It is selective.

If, as you claim, a B12 affects the vagus nerve (and all nerves) then it has no reason at all to be selective. You would expect it to affect every function of the vagus nerve (not just, as you suggest, gastric secretion). Attacking the whole vagus nerve would affect heart rate, sweating, speech, coughing, vomiting, and half a dozen other things.

If a B12 deficiency affected other nerves then you would expect the cranial nerves to be affected. That would, at a minimum result in severe double vision.

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fbirder
fbirder
in reply to Photoali66

Yes. There is no doubt that a vagotomy can cause a B12 deficiency because it greatly reduces production of IF.

Luckily it is a procedure that is now out of fashion - since they discovered that ulcers are nearly always caused by H. pylori infection.

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Scothyroidy

I will eat fermented vegetables (sauerkraut or kimchi etc) with steaks to help digestion.

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LynneG

I would and do, as others have said have cider vinegar with the 'Mother' (in most supermarkets) with your meal. I mix cider vinegar with organic dried mint (Waitrose sell pkts with their spices)to make mint sauce, which I have with most meals. C vinegar on salads if I don't have a lemon or lime in. I pour cidervinegar on jacket potatoes with butter, taste then just like chips. I would not mix the cider vinegar with water. We shouldn't drink wateror other any other drink half hour before a meal to half hr afterwards unless acidic red wine, otherwise you are just diluting your stomach acid. Just my opinion but seems like giving with one hand and taking away with the other, if you mix with water. I think the early morning diluted drink is for another reason other than digestion and should be taken away from food. I know eating apples cooked with the peel on (if organic) are beneficial for healing the gut /leaky gut (see British Dr Michael Ash) re pectin so unlikely to be the reason for the drink. So I presume is re intestinal health and the microbiome - being fermented and so it would be necessary for it to be organic and with the fermented mother and taken well away from food. Hope this helps

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indywindy
indywindy
in reply to LynneG

Many good thoughts on the subject. I cannot supplement with other than HCL at lunch and at dinner, but can easily alter the ACV to ½ hour before, but it conflicts with what is said earlier in this thread about having the ACV at the same time as the meal, like fbirder said, in order to mimic the normal digestion process. Thanks a lot:-)

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LynneG
LynneG
in reply to indywindy

I am not suggesting that you should have ACV before your meal. I am suggesting you have with your meal/s but not to dilute it. As the water will dilute the stomach acid you produce , needed for digestion. So have the ACV poured directly on your meal, as I described on jacket potato or flavoured with herbs such as mint and poured on your meal. I have seen the, dilute ACV in water advice but I feel that cannot be to aid digestion perhaps it is to do with supporting the microbiome and to be drunk well away from meals. You could as I do pour the full juice of a lemon /lime on your meal and cider vinegar dependant on the meal and what you prefer with it - but to increase your acid intake for digestion.

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Vitb

ACV definitely helps me with digestion due to PA & Vit b12 deficiency, diluted or undiluted.

However, Make sure you buy raw , unfiltered , ACV (with the mother) .

This means it has not been processed or filtered which is important.

I like ACV with honey & ginger added in hot water.

I also recommend taking a good probiotic to help heal the gut.

I use one called ‘symprove ‘ which has evidence based research.

Like you say I try to avoid stress.

I also sing in a choir & find benefit in meditation. 😊

Hope this helps.

Madaline (vitb)

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