Parkinson's Movement
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Why You May Need Magnesium To Get The Most Out Of Thiamine

It is becoming evident that some people get more benefit from thiamine than others. One possible reason may be that Dr. Costantini recommends that the thiamine should be taken on an empty stomach before you eat breakfast and again on an empty stomach before lunch. The uptake potential may be reduced if taken with food or after eating.

Another possible reason for this discrepancy may be the severity or duration of the PD. Two of the best responders here are Kia17 and GioCas and both started using thiamine relatively early in the disease process and have been fairly steady in their thiamine dosing. Persons of longer duration or severity, may require more time to achieve maximum benefit.

I was reading a new ( June / 2018 ) study abstract not related to PD, but it was discussing thiamine and it may offer another potential reason why you may not get the full benefit of thiamine even if you are taking what is the perfect dose for you! In this abstract it is stated that thiamine is converted into an active form called thiamine diphosphate, (TDP) and TDP interacts with magnesium to achieve activation of TDP dependent enzymes, including transketolase (TK), pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH) and alpha-keto glutaric acid dehydrogenase (AKGDH), during metabolism of glucose. This may be the reason that Dr. Costantini has recommended magnesium or magnesium blends for some of his PWPs. Please note that Kia17 has made it clear that magnesium is definitely on the list of everyday supplements and GioCas, please chime in if magnesium is on your daily supplement schedule. RoyProp has also been a very good responder and if you review his regimen, you will see he is using two types of magnesium! Add in the fact that magnesium is healthful in general and very helpful for PWPs and it makes you wonder!

Here is a post that explains some of the value of magnesium for PWPs :

healthunlocked.com/parkinso...

Add in the synergy of magnesium with vitamin D and.........

Here is the abstract from PubMed that explains how magnesium is needed for thiamine to be more effective :

Art

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Clin Nutr ESPEN. 2018 Jun;25:8-17. doi: 10.1016/j.clnesp.2018.02.007. Epub 2018 Mar 15.

The role of thiamine dependent enzymes in obesity and obesity related chronic disease states: A systematic review.

Maguire D1, Talwar D2, Shiels PG3, McMillan D4.

Author information

Abstract

The WHO 2016 report indicates that worldwide obesity is rising, with over 600 million people in the obese range (BMI>30). The recommended daily calorie intake for adults is 2000 kcal and 2500 kcal for women and men respectively. The average American consumes 3770 kcal/day and the average person in the UK consumes 3400 kcal/day. With such increased caloric intake, there is an increased load on metabolic pathways, in particular glucose metabolism. Such metabolism requires micronutrients as enzyme co-factors. The recommended daily allowance (RDA) for thiamine is 1.3 mg/day and 0.5 mg thiamine is required to process 1000 kilocalories (kcal). Therefore, despite the appearance of being overfed, there is now increasing evidence that the obese population may nutritionally depleted of essential micronutrients. Thiamine deficiency has been reported to be in the region of 16-47% among patients undergoing bariatric surgery for obesity. Thiamine, in turn, requires magnesium to be in its active form thiamine diphosphate, (TDP). TDP also requires magnesium to achieve activation of TDP dependent enzymes, including transketolase (TK), pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH) and alpha-keto glutaric acid dehydrogenase (AKGDH), during metabolism of glucose. Thiamine and magnesium therefore play a critical role in glucose metabolism and their deficiency may result in the accumulation of anaerobic metabolites including lactate due to a mismatch between caloric burden and function of thiamine dependent enzymes. It may therefore be postulated that thiamine and magnesium deficiency are under-recognized in obesity and may be important in the progress of obesity and obesity related chronic disease states. The aim of the present systematic review was to examine the role of thiamine dependent enzymes in obesity and obesity related chronic disease states.

PMID: 29779823 DOI: 10.1016/j.clnesp.2018.02.007

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Ive been taking magnesium malate. Not getting much out of that. Which mg form is recommended? By the way i was doing well on thiamine but it stopped working so dr c recommended i cut my dose in half. Waiting for it to kick back in!

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For me I use topical magnesium chloride and magnesium l threonate, but I have just ordered magnesium taurate which is also noted for being able to target the brain like magnesium l threonate as well as target the heart, but the addition of taurine offers other benefits.......especially for PWPs. If I notice a difference between the l threonate and the taurate, I will definitely report it on this forum!

If you notice, Kia17 is using a blend recommended by Dr. Costantini, but does not seem to be available here in the states. Something to keep in mind is the experience that Dr. Costantini has with thiamine after 2,500+ patients!

Art

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After the dialogue with you a few months back, I switched from magnesium threonate to Supramag (link below).

I take one in the am and one before bed.

ruved.com/store/stress-and-...

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Do you notice a difference between the magnesium threonate and the Supramag? I remember you were on a relatively low dose of magnesium threonate. I'm using the recommended 2,010 mg of magnesium threonate, but am going to try the magnesium taurate once it arrives.

Art

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Nothing quantifiable.

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These are the ingredients in the Aximagnesio:

Ingredients

Sachets containing 300 mg of magnesium: maize maltodextrin, magnesium malate, magnesium gluconate, acidifier: citric acid; magnesium pidolate, Sweeteners: erythritol, steviol glycosides from stevia rebaudiana; natural lemon flavour, magnesium chloride, magnesium bisglycinate, anti-caking agents: silica dioxide; magnesium sucrosomial® – Ultramag® (magnesium oxide, rice starch, emulsifiers: sucrose esters of fatty and sunflower lecithin acids, stabilizer: tricalcium phosphate, rice flour), magnesium citrate, magnesium succinate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6).

With an agreeable natural lemon flavour sweetened with stevia rebaudiana, the new calorie-free and sugar-free natural sweetener.

pegaso.eu/en/store/nutritio...

These are the ingredients in Supramag :

Ingredients

Serving Size: 1 capsule

Servings Per Container: 90

Amount Per Serving:

Elemental Magnesium 65.55 mg

Magnesium Total Blend 400 mg

-(from Magnesium Fumarate, DiMagnesium Malate, Magnesium Orotate, Magnesium BisGlycinate Chelate buffered, Magnesium Citrate)

Other Ingredients: Vegetarian Capsule

professionalsupplementcente...

Art

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Hello Art - how's it going with the magnesium taurate? I have been giving Glen Magnesium Malate + the Mag Chloride oil but we are just about to run out of the Malate and was thinking of trying Magnesium Taurate instead......any suggestions/comments?

Thanks

Gerry

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Hi Gerry,

It seems that like every other type of medication or supplement, magnesium can affect each person a little differently, but overall magnesium is healthful for us when we get enough. Magnesium malate is considered to have better availability than some other forms of magnesium as does magnesium taurate. I think the fact that you are taking magnesium at all is the most important point!

From my point of view, I also think it is important to know what you are trying to do with the magnesium supplement you are taking. The magnesium l threonate is said to specifically target the brain, but imo, the evidence in humans is fairly weak. Magnesium Taurate has recently been shown to also effectively target the brain and this would be quite important for PWPs. I am aware of one study discussing the effectiveness of magnesium malate at targeting the brain, but that study suggested that magnesium taurate may be better at it. Another advantage for magnesium taurate is that taurine has studies that show benefit to the heart as does magnesium itself and recent studies have shown that PWPs may be at increased risk of heart problems as is the same case for people with psoriasis. Taurine has also shown benefit for PWPS and would probably be in my top 12 alternatives for PD. I also take apple cider vinegar (ACV) and this supplies malate, so in my situation, the magnesium taurate seems like a reasonable choice that is likely to have long term benefit while the ACV adds in the benefits of malate, while the topical mag oil is additive and I think that is about as good as I can do at this point so that is what I am currently taking until I read otherwise. I do alternate with magnesium l threonate, but as soon as I burn through my current supply, I will stop taking it and continue with magnesium taurate.

My view may change in the future as more studies come available and it seems that manufacturers continue to expand the available forms of magnesium so there should be even more options down the road.

Gerry, I have a question for you. What benefit if any do you think Glen gets from the mag oil?

Art

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Once again, many thanks Art for your in-depth reply.

I didn't know Apple Cider Vinegar was a source of magnesium malate. I take ACV every day but haven't managed to persuade Glen to take it yet.

It's difficult to answer your question about mag oil as Glen is presently in so much pain emanating from his back (which I think I have mentioned previously) that nothing seems to help any of his PD symptoms when all he can think about is pain. However, I've just asked him how he feels about the mag oil and he said that it helps him with his calf muscle cramps/stiff muscles but not much else. He also occasionally has a magnesium salt bath which he finds soothing & relaxing and seems to just make him feel better. 😊

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Gerry,

The ACV actually contains mallic acid. The amount of magnesium is minimal.

As far as the mag oil, the benefits he is getting is good, but the chronic back pain is going to be a hindrance to better health in general because of the chronic inflammation associated with it. Just a thought, but when I have had severe back pain, I use ice packs to reduce inflammation significantly within three days of regular use. Obviously it will depend on the cause of the back pain, but whatever it is, ice packing is non invasive and an easy way to try and reduce the inflammation and is why pro athletes use icing regularly for its highly anti inflammatory effects. If benefit is seen in those three days, it will be worth continuing longer with the ice packs in my experience. If I can reduce the inflammation enough, then the mag oil can be more effective for my pain relief when I massage directly into and around the spinal area and back. If the mag oil is still not enough, then I have used the ibuprofen topical to the entire back with good effect. This avoids the gastro issues associated with oral ibuprofen. I've tried other things for my back pain, but these two are simple and easy for me.

The epsom salt soaks are helpful and cover much more body surface area than the mag oil. Keeping the bath water at warm to tepid will be better than hot water because while the hot water can be relaxing too, it tends to increase inflammation which can make the back problems worse over time.

Art

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Thank you...this info couldn't have come at a better time. I'm on thiamine hcl and having trouble hitting the right dose. I came home from dinner with friends determined to reread all past posts re thiamine I could find, and found this post. Now I'm trying to figure out the best magnesium to take. Maybe l theonate to start. Do you think the mag & b1 she be taken together ?

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If it is possible for you to get, I would give first consideration to the one Kia17 is taking. Failing that, I would definitely use magnesium oil (magnesium chloride) topically and consider magnesium taurate orally.

Art

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Thanks, Just found Kia 17 posts..will read tomorrow,almost 1am here !

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I forgot to respond to your question about when to take the magnesium. Kia17 takes it with the morning thiamine dose if I remember correctly and I think Kia also takes an evening dose of magnesium citrate.

Art

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Thanks again

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So Kia's morning magnesium type dose is also citrate?

Your info feed here is broadly appreciated

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No, Kia is using a "magnesium blend" recommended by Dr. Costantini for that morning dose. The magnesium citrate was not recommended by Dr. Costantini, that was Kia's choice.

Art

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As it turns out, GioCas "IS" taking magnesium in the following forms:

calcium gluconate + magnesium carbonate sometime in apple vinegar and hot water or potassium + magnesium. Gio, if you have a chance, can you give feed back on your magnesium supplementing? Thank you!

Art

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Is this Dr c recommended magnesium blend?

If not where can we find it?

Thanks

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Yes, this is what Dr. Costantini recommended to Kia. I only know that it can be purchased in Italy and none of the HU members who have looked have found it other than Italy.

It is called Aximagnesio:

pegaso.eu/en/store/nutritio...

Art

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Great. Many thanks

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I can only evaluate the use on the practical side: magnesium relaxes the muscles if you then combine it with calcium gluconate and dissolve with apple vinegar to adjust the acidity add hot water is almost good and taken in the evening makes you sleep very relaxed. Minerals like magnesium calcium and potassium, are necessary for me because thiamine has a diuretic effect and I work i sweat a lot and I drink a lot of water. Thiamine in high doses should certainly be paired with a right personalized dose of magnesium and also other minerals to have maximum benefit in Pd in the long term ( years) for me.

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I agree, Gio!

You, Kia17 and RoyProp are three of some of the best responses to high dose thiamine therapy and all three of you are using magnesium daily!

Art

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Yes, but let's me say that Dr. C. never told me to take magnesium, but i never ask him about.I take it from me and it is good. I do thiamine 100mg injections intra muscolar twice a week ( sometime three) and I never had a regression of the symptoms or variations due to thiamine, just a rare little excitement that ceases after a few hours and so I suspending a injiection or two. With the pills you introduce a variability that with the injections you do not have, due to intestinal absorption, but you know the injections should be prescribed to the doctors and often they do not for now. As I wrote above in the practical use of magnesium there are many physical advantages concerning the nerves and as Art says thiamina agrees with magnesium and i think help a lot ,but boys thiamina is 5 stars for PD! 😃

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You are correct, Gio, thiamine is "the stuff" and magnesium is like "the helper" for the thiamine and together, "they are very special"!

Art

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Thanks so much for your research and advice. We have just begun our thiamine under Dr C. advice over email and will certainly let you know how we go and also ask him if we need magnesium. I am feeling very hopeful for the first time in ages. I'm so glad I found you all! it is so nice to be able to hear what others are doing, have help with understanding the research and ask questions. I don't feel so alone anymore. I really appreciate all the people who share their discoveries and give such thoughtful advice. Especially those who have been on thiamine for a long time.

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This is a great place for information on PD and what PWPs are using to get the best benefits with all of the different combinations of meds and supplements! It may be helpful for you to include a copy of that abstract when you discuss magnesium supplementing with Dr. Costantini. Please keep us updated on your progress!

Art

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Can anyone email to Dr C or you need to pay him and be his patient. What is his email address

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His email is in the title of this post here :

healthunlocked.com/parkinso...

I recommend that you read that full post in order to have the needed information that he will ask you for. It will save you and him time!

Art

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Art, I would like to thank you publicly for the great help you are giving here on HU, with your expert advice that I follow and for much help in dissemination.

A person like you makes the difference wherever he is and we are proud and happy to have you here with us.

In four months on HU I learned from you and the others a lot of useful things from which I get great benefits.

The strength of a forum is given by the people who attend it, and we on HU are the best group.

We HU people listen to everyone, we are very critical but we do not close the door to anyone, our goal is to help and we love each other. We are honored by your presence here. Thanks for all the help you give! George :-)

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Thank you very much for saying so Gio! Your contributions are generous and your story is very inspiring for all that follow you! It gives much hope to a sometimes hopeless disease. I think that is why I may have seemed to pressure you into telling more about your experience to make sure as many people as possible get to hear it! You, Kia17 , Royprop and many others are all generous in your willingness to share what has worked for you!

This forum is fairly unique because it is has so many posters who are extremely focused on making the best of what can often times be a very bad situation by seeking out the latest developments in PD research and outside of the box thinking related to PD. Compared to the forum that Cons10 posted about, it is like night and day! Sharing all of this knowledge with each other is very useful!

The part I find difficult is the abundance of useful thoughts and ideas that pass through these pages everyday. So much of it, I never see because it goes by so fast and then can easily get lost. I feel like I have missed a lot of important information in all of those posts that I never saw.

Art

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The difference between a positive control and an undue pressure is clear and even the most rebellious child recognizes the difference and knows by natural awareness what it is: that is the intention. The intention to help is what really matters .As long as your intention is to help as it has been so far, no problem.

Gio

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In my opinion Magnesium and Calcium act in symbiosis, magnesium for nerves, the Calcium for muscles.The problem is make them enter into the circulation in the body; mixed them in appropriate doses with apple vinegar and water. 1 or 2 glasses before going to sleep removes cramps.Gio

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