The University of British Columbia has written an article about Leaky Gut Syndrome. From the Canadian Society of Intestial Reseach

Many people seek a cure for their disease by healing their Leaky Gut. People who choose this route do a lot of research and are very disciplined with thier choosen diet plans.I must say their discipline amazes me and I do applaud them. The only problem I have with healing the Leaky Gut programes are that "Leaky Gut" is just a theory, a money maker... It hasn't been proven yet. Maybe one day it will. Anyways, here is an article written by

James R. Gray, MD, CCFP, ABIM, FRCPC

Gastroenterologist, Faculty of Medicine,

University of British Columbia

badgut.org/information-cent...

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  • To me this link is far from a scientific review. This is more of a statement of opinion, and you can really find lots of them. The links I sent you earlier on the other post are in my view science based and also has links. to research.

  • Can you post your links here? I missed them the first time. Thanks!

  • You can find them in the recent ra post. I can send if you don't find๐Ÿ˜Š

  • Please send.

  • This is the conclusion of your link Simba

    .....This complex and dynamic symbiosis needs further elucidation and may help in determining the outcome of autoimmune diseases in patients."

    So your link states needs 'further elucidation" this means further studies need to be done to prove Leaky Gut.

  • Thank you. Is it written by this man?

    lymeneteurope.org/forum/vie...

  • Here is the conclusion of your other link Simba.

    ....."a similar pattern of findings are apparent but the experiment to try and prevent disease by preventing the increase in permeability has not been performed.'"

    This means more studies need to be done...so still not proven but I am thrilled the the Uni of Albera is doing this study. My nephews go to this University :)

  • Totally agree, very science based

  • No, this is written by a UBC doctor of Gastroentrologist. Your view is on your own opinion are you a GI specailist?

  • Yes the links you posted where studies being done by scientist that are still trying to prove "Leaky Gut" Both your links conclusions state that studies still need to be done to prove Leaky Gut.

  • More interesting new research touching the subject:

    chriskresser.com/still-thin...

  • Are you unable to find a study or Governing body of any country to prove Leaky Gut? ...Of coarse you aren't able because you just site on going studies. All your posted/ linked studies conclude more studies still need to be done.

    Hey, I just had a thought. Maybe you sell products to cure Leaky Gut? Is that why you keep promoting Leaky Gut as real? ...tsk tsk...shame on you for claiming Leaky Gut has been proven.

  • I do think it's an interesting hypothesis. I'm not an expert on scientific literature, but Sarah Ballantyne used a lot of it in The Paleo Approach and I know with my own N=1 that I felt much better following the Paleo Autoimmune Protocol.

  • Many thanks for posting the intestinal permeability research links Simba.

    My sense of it all is that one day the medical/surgical professions will look back on these days of compartmental medical practices, hit their foreheads with their hands and say "what the hell were we thinking"!! Time will tell as it often does.

  • Thank you Sue! Pleased to see our NHS & your UBC agree with 'leaky gut' theory nhs.uk/conditions/leaky-gut...

    Interestingly there's only the one trial under way I can find related to 'leaky gut' & is that's in Korea (currently recruiting if anyone's interested.... you've to be male, over 20 with an average daily alcohol consumption of 20 gram plus other criteria!) apps.who.int/trialsearch/Tr...

    So, I think that's that for 'leaky gut' until more trials & results are published, as suspected, but I fear it won't stop the unscrupulous talking their talk. It is a real concern that as your research says a TV doctor personality and some otherwise trusted practitioners are diagnosing and treating this baseless โ€˜syndromeโ€™, potentially convincing people to change their otherwise fine diet.

  • It is good that we are sceptical to people. Tom O'Bryan is leading a fight for leaky gut and gets some really good results. I agree he is one who I unsubscribed to because of all his selling. But my question is.. how come when I had a two day cleanse my symptoms disappeared? When I started my elimination diet the pain stayed away? When I add bananas I react? Oil I react. If I fast on the morning of a flare or just drink celery and cucumber juice the pain subsides? Why does it happen?i would love to know the answer. Or could it be that if a correlation was proved it would bring no financial reward? Your post was very interesting. Where do you sit on treatment?

  • Well, are Mr O'Brien's results from scientifically controlled clinical trials, because if they're not they're not reliable & likely to be biased in my eyes. Any cleanse or detox will make you feel good for 2 days if it's done with catabolic foods, it's what they do, they break down toxins. Without knowing which foods you react negatively to the ones you stayed away from won't be known if your elimination diet was due to what you are or not, sorry. Many people react to oils, some all others specific ones. My h can't eat vegetable oils for example but he has EVOO on his toast each morning, he has gastro problems, once thought to be IBS, possibly still is, but he also has a quite large gallstone & a history of acute pancreatitis. Fasting on the morning of a flare, well given what we eat can have an impact on inflammation if you don't react to whatever you eat when you feel a flare coming on then in theory it wouldn't progress. Bananas, I'm not sure unless you also have a latex allergy, even though we don't eat the skin of bananas the latex the proteins are still present in the fruit (or herb ๐Ÿค”).

  • Tom Obrien is a con man. If what he claims was real then he would be recognized by the WHO. He would also recieve the Nobel Peace Prize for medicine. So what fight is he leading?

    I do hope diet is working for you and I do hope Leaky Gut can be proven as a fact. Sadly as of March 2017 it is still a theory.

  • Hi Glenb. Such an odd question "Where do you sit on treatment?"

    UN run World Health Organization regulates what is fact and what is fiction. Universities from all over the world submit proven doubleblinded studies to them. The medical professions around the world follows the rules of WHO.

    Having said that, I just recently had a failed root canal extracted and my RA improved by 50%. 10 days later my endodontist retreated my 2nd root canal. He pulled out a piece of gangrene root left behind in a forgotten canal. This 2nd root canal was done in 2008. In total my RA symptoms improved by about 75%.

    My rheumy is watching me closely. There was only one other scientific study done on extracted dental work and remission of RA. This study was done at the University of Amsterdam.

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/121...

  • Wow. What a story... the body definitely is so complex. Trial and error but no 2 people the same. Good luck

  • So glad your RA is still improving after all your dental disasters!

    AC

  • I hear ya.

  • The study posted by Simba done by the University of Alberta was done in 2006. Sadly they were unable to prove leaky gut syndrome. It looks like they have given up. Hopefully Korea can prove it as a fact. I'm going to keep my eye on this one. Thanks NMH

  • Replying to all of you who've been wrestling with the subject of leaky gut: thank you for all the insights most of which I intend to pursue in the hope of reaching some sort of a conclusion I can live with!

    I remain deeply suspicious of medics and others who believe they have discovered important information but charge vulnerable people for that information before attempting to organise randomised controlled trials (RCTs) and/or submitting their research for peer review. But that doesn't mean I ignore the possibilities waiting to be explored and evidenced. I just happen to believe we all react differently to foods just as we do drugs so it's going to be hellishly complex to prove - but it's not impossible to run the necessary trials.

    I am not anti thinking outside of the box and I have personal experience of the suspicion and hostility shown by The Establishment and parts of the medical/psych community towards anything new which they see as 'flakey'. Who'd have thought that research on successful reversal of Type Two diabetes via diet would ever see the light of day - but it has! I'm told it takes the medical profession about 20 years to accept new theories - who knows if that's really true but I remember the eminent homeopath I worked for 25 years ago recommending omega oils, algae and other alternative remedies that were disputed then but have gained much credibility since.

    I've contributed to OMERACT, an international rheumatology conference wherein patients work with researchers, academics and senior health professionals on new ideas. These hitherto unexamined concepts are subjected to intense scrutiny over several stages and patients have provided valuable and critical insights on their lived experience and beliefs which have resulted in new directions for the research and ultimately resulted in real benefits to patients. I'm mentioning this because it occurred to me reading the posts this morning that each of us could provide incredibly valuable information to researchers. Rather than using up our valuable energy on possibly defending our various corners, we could create a valuable database. In the same way that Biologics were designed to block inflammatory triggers maybe pharma would be interested to research a more natural 'blocker' or a university might welcome what we have to contribute and run trials.

    Or maybe this subject simply provides a focus for us to vent the frustrations I imagine we all encounter living with inflammatory disease. That's healthy too but I hate to see people upset because deep down this subject can feel threatening. I know it upsets me because I have tried SO hard to avoid drugs and it only helped in the short term. To look back over all the losses RA has caused me and to think I need not have suffered so much IF ONLY I'd found the 'right' diet is deeply distressing.

    Have a good day all - somehow!

  • I do not feel threatened about Leaky Gut. Not at all. I support a healthy diet. My issuess with Leaky Gut is people promoting it as a proven fact. It is not.

    Scientific trials are on going. No threat there. If people were to promote a certain diet and claim it helps, well thats a good thing. But people who promote a certain diet claiming it cures Leaky Gut aren't tellingt the truth. This is the big problem. These people then go on claiming that it is a scientific fact all auto immune diseases start in the gut. As of today it has not been proven.

    Claiming diet has helped your RA is great. Claiming diet has cured your Leaky Gut, a scientific fact, is a lie.

  • Good article Suzannne......I'm so old to my generation Leaky Gut meant Diaorrhea! But I guess if thinking you have it means you eat more healthily it might not do any harm,but as the article says all the advice seems to indicate the opposite!

  • Eating healthy is very important. It wasn't until I got RA that my healthy eating went down the loo....I guess sitting around the house with swollen painfull joints for almost a year causes weight gain.

  • Try taking Leflunomife I lost around 12kgs (around 26lbs) in 6 months....just didn't feel hungry. To add insult to injury it didn't help the RA!

  • You lost 26 lbs?.....I think I found them on my thighs.....can I send this 26lbs of fat back to you?....I think I should put a lock on my fridge & freezer....lol

  • Bless!

    I am just one of those really annoying people who don't get hungry!

    I don't like chocolate, but can eat a whole mega size packet of crisps (potato chips to you) but then won't want dinner.

    Since I've had RA my appetite has definitely got worse......I've just bought somebdiscs to hang in my fridge because I throw away so much fruit & veg ...they are supposed to,keep,stuff fresh longer!

    Leave that fridge door shut SD!

  • lol...I'm seeing my GP today and hope to be going back to work soon. I'm feeling so much better.

  • So glad your 'story' has had such a positive note.... you'd been to hell and back,and it's about time you finally caught a break.

    Good luck with getting back to work

    Nicki x

  • Omg AgedCrone

    I've finally found someone else who has the same eating habits as me.... well,that is since I've been ill anyway - before that I was practically vegan....wasn't intentional,I'm just a veggie who doesn't like a lot of dairy,but since being ill,and lying around the house,I've found a new found appetite for anything savoury,and now think 'sod it' if eating healthy and being a gym freak got me here,then I'm going to enjoy eating what I want..... and that's mainly crisps for tea/dinner..... while the chocolate can actually go past it's date in my fridge ๐Ÿ˜‚

    Nicki

  • Oh my Nicki, I could of wrote your post. I have been a veggie loving vegan for over 15 years....but when RA hit me hard I welcomed back the ice cream,, potato chips, chicken, hamburgers etc...I still can't eat pork though

  • Luckily I've managed to stay off the meat,but I do think sod it when it comes to sweets etc....I never ever smoked and gave up drinking at about 19!! life's too short,as I've learned the hard way,good living and gym don't always mean long healthy life!! ๐Ÿ˜ฃ

  • I was allergic to pork as a child. Found out because one Monday a month my friend from school had lunch at my house as her mother worked. She was Jewish so no pork for Sunday roast that week. After a few times that I missed school because of an upset tummy, my mother worked out it always happened when we had pork! No more pork...no more upset Tum!

    I never choose to eat pork now, but if it's served at a friend's house I have eaten a small portion with no ill effect...but I can live without it....so no probs.

    Funny old world isn't it?

  • I gave up meat Easter '93. We had never eatten rabbit before and our friends said they would bring one for dinner. Well our friends came over and brought a rabbit on a platter. I was aghast as my 2yr old son started to cry. Both my cat & bird were stressed as they hissed and squawked.

    This poor old rabbit looked like my skinned cat laying dead, head attached & paws up surrounded by carrots. It just seemed so wrong.

  • As a child my uncle used to shoot rabbits & my grandmother cooked them.....they were delicious! BUT about ten years ago I decided to try one of her recipes. Bought the rabbit at the butchers, got all the ingredients assembled, then opened the package of rabbit & saw two little legs! I couldn't face it. It all went in the bin & I have never tried again!

    But I can demolish a lobster or a crab no probs!

    As I said ...funny old world!

  • Warm hello, Suzannedale. ๐Ÿ‘‹

    'Long time, no see.' ๐Ÿ‘€

    Hope you're doing well. ๐Ÿ™ ๐ŸŒบ

    Thank you kindly for sharing article:"Debunking the Myth of โ€˜Leaky Gut Syndromeโ€™ ": badgut.org/information-cent...

    [Always interesting reading various perspectives. ๐Ÿ‘ Equally so, with the various other referenced links that people have kindly taken time to share. Much, much appreciated. ๐Ÿ™ ]

    .

    ______

    I'd shared my perspective with you about 'Leaky Gut Theory' (a while back back around Holiday time) under post 'For All Autoimmuner's: FREE 7-Part Documentary with Tom O'Bryan': healthunlocked.com/nras/pos...

    [Don't know if you ever had a chance to see it. If you've a chance now, I'd value your perspective on what was noted. ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ™ ]

    Cut & pasted below for convenience.

    .

  • Whether 'Leaky Gut' theory proves to be accurate or inaccurate -- may reveal itself over time.

    That's for 'big brains' to determine. ๐Ÿค“ ๐Ÿค”

    [As a layman, I haven't 'a horse in the race'. ๐ŸŽ I've neither 'opinion' nor 'conviction' either way. ๐Ÿ˜ถ ]

    ______

    Unfortunately, it appears to be a stumbling block ('right out of the gate') -- the disputability of the 'Leaky Gut' theory).

    The inability to 'get over' it's 'theoretical limbo state' appears to prevent people from seeing beyond that 'stickingpoint'.

    Despite the 'theory' *and* the shortcomings/ flaws of the 'Autoimmunity Series' itself (as elaborated in earlier, now 'disappeared' comments -- as well as comments in other forums . . .), the critical useful points are overshadowed/ overlooked/ forgotten/ by-passed by an inability to get over "theory".

    The substance (the baby ๐Ÿ‘ถ ) is continually being "thrown out with the bath water" ๐Ÿ›.

    .

    ๐Ÿ˜‚ ๐Ÿ˜‚ ๐Ÿ˜‚

    .

    [Somewhere . . . there's an awful lot of babies floating about . . . ๐ŸŒŠ ๐Ÿ‘ถ ๐Ÿ‘ถ ๐Ÿ‘ถ ]

    .

    ______

    Merely my opinion:

    'Black & white', 'all or nothing' statements get us nowhere -- except, perhaps, encouraging folks to 'choose sides'? Dig in heels? . . . ๐Ÿค”

    There's a lot of 'shades of gray', 'nuance', 'wiggle room' . . . in day-to-day reality for multitudes of us who haven't 'a horse in the race' -- nor feel a need to 'choose sides' . . .

    Many of us merely want to know what approaches/ techniques we can implement in 'the here & now' to get though a day, & hopefully, improve our conditions over time.

    We're not interested in 'arguing'/ getting 'stuck in' which theories are proven or disproven.

    We merely want to know WHAT we can do to influence the course of disease progression.

    The immediacy of pain, debilitation, etc . . . forces us to 'laser focus' on what we can do to influence our condition . . . NOW.

    ______

    Whether 'Leaky Gut' is true or untrue -- makes no difference when I know (for me & plenty of other autoimmuners) -- what is true for us (for example), is ingesting dairy ๐Ÿง€ ๐Ÿฆ ๐Ÿถ ๐Ÿ„ will make me (us) flare.

    That 'personal truth' -- proven (for myself, as well as plenty of others) through 'trial & error' self-experimentation, which doesn't hinge upon whether scientists agree upon a 'theory' or not.

    [That's the only part that really interests/ matters to me -- and, I suspect, many others. Many of us sufferers merely want to know ('boots on the ground') WHAT we can do -- in the here & now -- to try to help ourselves feel better.]

    We're happy to let scientists, experts, FUDers . . . 'work out the kinks' -- argue the 'validity of theories' till the end of time . . . (That's of no concern to us.)

    All we know is what we are doing is working for us or isn't working for us. ๐Ÿ™

    We "see the wood for the trees" . . . englishclub.com/ref/esl/Idi...

    ______

    A downside of getting stuck in 'theoretical rightness/ wrongness' argument, renders some of us immobile -- unable, unwilling, fearful, etc. of trying something that can help (some? many?) of us improve/ heal.

    Being frozen in indecision/ immobility -- because something is not 'proven to scientific satisfaction' -- is an unfortunate unintended consequence -- a 'fall out' -- of uncertainty/ limbo. ๐Ÿ˜‘

    Days, months, years fritter away -- 'sitting on the fence' of indecision -- because a 'theory' hasn't been proven. In the meanwhile, disease takes firmer root -- progresses -- as the argument of "unproven theories" rages on . . . ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ™ƒ

    ๐Ÿ˜‚ ๐Ÿ˜‚ ๐Ÿ˜‚

    (If we didn't laugh at the absurdity of it all, we'd weep. ๐Ÿ˜ญ ๐Ÿ˜ญ ๐Ÿ˜ญ )

    ______

    To each his own. ๐Ÿ™

    Some choose to 'go out on a limb' & munch their "leafy greens" ๐Ÿƒ etc., some choose to 'bah humbug' ๐Ÿ˜‰ & insist it's all 'stuff'n nonsense' ๐Ÿ™„ . . .

    It's all fine . . . ๐Ÿ‘

    We live our own lives, we think for ourselves, we make our own assessments, & proceed accordingly . . . ๐Ÿ™

    ______

    For some of us, it 'buys more time' -- more 'quality of life' . . . ๐Ÿ™

    That's 'good enough' for us. . . ๐Ÿค—

    ______

    [Personally, I merely wish to share what has helped me, so it might help others. ๐Ÿ™ I'm not interested in arguing 'rightness or wrongness' of 'theories'.]

    .

    ๐ŸŽ„ ๐ŸŽ ๐Ÿค— ๐Ÿ€ ๐ŸŒบ

  • On a different (yet related) theme, if you've time, I'd appreciate your insights on my reply to crashdoll's soundly raised points at a different post: Wheelchair to Bikram Yoga (in 10 Months): healthunlocked.com/nras/pos...

    .

    I appreciate/ value your thoughtful perspective, Suzannedale. ๐Ÿ™ ๐Ÿ‘

    ______

    Think we're all on the 'same page' (or at least 'on the same boat' ๐Ÿšฃ ) โ€” equally struggling to understand what is going on within our bodies.

    Why some of us respond to diet & lifestyle tweaks & some of us don't is equally perplexing/ flummoxing to so many of us who don't grasp the 'sciencey bits' โ€” particularly when so many articles (etc.) seemingly conflict(?) to us layman. ๐Ÿค”

    ______

    Think it's productive if we harmoniously work together (row in the same direction ๐Ÿšฃ ๐Ÿšฃ ๐Ÿšฃ ) towards understanding this ineffable mystery. ๐Ÿ‘

    (Think we'll move towards understanding improving/ healing quicker if we cooperatively 'paddle in the same direction'. ๐Ÿ™ ๐Ÿ‘ )

    ______

    Thank you kindly for any insights you've time to share, kind lady.

    Much appreciated. ๐Ÿ™

    .

    Wishing you wellness & good cheer. ๐Ÿ™ ๐ŸŒบ ๐Ÿ€ ๐ŸŒž

    .

  • Hello Kai, nice to see you again.

    Diet is very important. If diet can help ease some peoples painful RA symptoms well I think that's wonderful.

    The problem is when chiropractors like Tom O'bryan, comedians like Clint Paddison are promoting diet for dollars for health. Preying on the sick. Honest clinical nutritionist never promote the theory of leaky gut as a proven fact for dollars. As of April 2017 leaky gut is still a theory. One wonders if they notified thier customers that leaky gut still needs to be proven, would they still be raking in the dollars?

    Diet can help some people manage their RA. No argument there. Claiming Clint & Tom know the truth about Leaky Gut and how to cure auto immune is a travesty. . All the best to you Kai

  • [Part 1 of 8]

    .

    Thank you kindly, suzannedale, for clarifying. ๐Ÿ‘ ๐ŸŒบ

    Much appreciated. ๐Ÿ™

    .

    ______

    I hear your points:

    โœ”๏ธ Tom O'Bryan is a "doctor of chiropratic, certified clinical nutritionist, diplomate of the American Chiropractic" โ€” not a specialist in Autoimmune diseases

    โœ”๏ธ Clint Paddison is a comedian.

    โœ”๏ธ Leaky gut is still a theory.

    โœ”๏ธ Honest clinical nutritionist never promote the theory of leaky gut as a proven fact for dollars.

    .

    And, from your perspective, both Clint Paddison & Tom O'Bryan are:

    ๐Ÿ‘‰ Promoting diet for dollars for health

    ๐Ÿ‘‰ Claiming they know the truth about Leaky Gut and how to cure auto immune

    ๐Ÿ‘‰ Preying on the sick & people desperate for a cure.

    .

    ______

    I hear ya . . I hear ya . . . ๐Ÿ™

    I can understand how people can perceive things in that way โ€” especially in the way it has just been framed. ๐Ÿ™ ๐Ÿค”

    Have heard various permutations of those points raised & repeated endlessly on the forum.

    .

    I guess I'm just not perceiving it that way at all.

    Wonder if somehow it boils down to 'perception' / 'interpretation' โ€” seeing things through different filters, different lenses? ๐Ÿค”

    .

    ______

    I think the explanation here to Lucy11 is my 'simple take' on why some people are interpreting things in a variety of ways: Placing Dietary & Lifestyle Approaches 'In Context'/ 'In Perspective': healthunlocked.com/nras/pos...

    .

    ______

    Yes, it's factually true (from my understanding as well) that Tom O'Bryan & Clint Paddison don't have Autoimmune Disease specialty training? ๐Ÿค”

    (That is, they're not MDs, medical doctors/ physicians formally trained ๐ŸŽ“ in autoimmune diseases. Nor do I think they're claiming such credentials. ๐Ÿ“œ )

    Guess that diminishes their 'authority, expertise, credibility' in the eyes of 'proper(?)' scientific/ medical arenas? ๐Ÿค”

    That's understandable. ๐Ÿ™

    I definitely see your point. ๐Ÿ‘

    .

  • [Part 2 of 8]

    .

    Yet, despite the lack of 'authority, expertise, credibility' โ€” they seemed to have not only helped themselves but have also helped many others improve/ heal as well despite the lack of proper specialty training ๐ŸŽ“ ๐Ÿ“œ ? ๐Ÿค”

    I mean, Clint Paddison's 1st-hand experience seems pretty remarkable, non-typical(?) for disease progression? ๐Ÿค” And, for those of us who've also chosen to implement a diet/ lifestyle approach (along with med approaches), a sizable portion of us (19 out of 20) seem to be faring pretty well? ๐Ÿค”

    Yes, it's merely 'anecdotal' experiences โ€” not a proper/ official long-term study that's taken as legitimate "scientific proof/ evidence".

    Yet, it must strike even the 'most critical' as odd that 19 in 20 are having undeniable improvements as evidenced by not only ourselves (& loved ones) โ€” but by our medical teams who are monitoring our progress. ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿค”

    .

    ______

    The figure I hear repeated is '19 out of 20' sufferers experience improvement. (That anecdotal figure sounds pretty remarkable. ๐Ÿ˜ณ )

    Quite a track record for a non-medically trained person, a layman, a comedian? ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿค”

    For the 1 out of 20 sufferers, who's not improving (after giving it a fair go within a reasonable amount of time), the disappointment, upset โ€” even anger is very understandable. ๐Ÿ™ ๐Ÿ˜”

    .

    ______

    Perhaps some individuals (of the one in 20 who are not experiencing improvements) feel a need to denounce dietary/ lifestyle approaches (or PP in particular)? ๐Ÿค”

    Not because it's a 'bogus money making scheme dreamed up by a charlatan' [hyperbole for humorous effect only ๐Ÿ˜‰ ], but because the process personally failed them. They'd built up expectations, only to have them dashed. ๐Ÿ˜ž The let down, the frustration is undoubtedly disappointing, devastating. ๐Ÿ˜ž

    .

    ______

    Perhaps there are other avenues to explore that may be more useful or better suited for the one in 20?

    Perhaps energy may be better spent exploring other avenues rather than & 'blaming oneself' or 'blaming a process for not working' or 'blaming people for whom the process does work'? ๐Ÿค”

    Would it be on par with 'blaming a med' for not working or 'blaming one's medical team' for recommending a protocol that failed, or 'blaming other people' for whom a med/ protocol does work? ๐Ÿค”

    Does that make sense? ๐Ÿค”

    Does it sound like a good use of time/ energy to self-flagellate? or to accuse/ blame others for treatment failures? ๐Ÿค”

    .

  • [Part 3 of 8]

    .

    In the end โ€” isn't it (all approaches, techniques) a 'try it & see' experiential/ experimental process for each of our unique bodies? ๐Ÿค”

    No guarantees, no definitive answers . . . ?

    Truth be told โ€” aren't we all our own walking, talking experimental laboratories on 2 legs ๐Ÿšถ ? ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    With outcomes impossible to predict ๐Ÿ”ฎ for each individual? ๐Ÿค”

    Don't we all โ€” pretty much operate on 'a wing & a prayer' โœˆ๏ธ ๐Ÿ› (to some degree) whenever we try something new โ€” a new med, a new food, a new regime? ๐Ÿค”

    .

    As we're so fond of saying around here:

    "What works for 1 person, doesn't necessarily work for another."

    .

    We don't know what an effect will be until after we've tried something for a period of time? ๐Ÿ˜

    .

    ______

    If we're the one of the 19 (out of the 20) who are improving, we count our lucky stars & fall to our knees in gratitude ๐Ÿ› for any improvements/ healings. ๐Ÿ™

    If we're the one in 20 who's not improving, we curse our fate & bemoan our misfortune. ๐Ÿ˜ž

    All very 'human' reactions, all very understandable. ๐Ÿ˜Œ

    .

    ______

    There are no 'villains' or 'victims'.

    There are merely 'people' all rowing in the same direction ๐Ÿšฃ ๐Ÿšฃ ๐Ÿšฃ trying to help ourselves improve/ heal.

    To turn around & take a rowing paddle & strike a fellow sufferer on the noggin doesn't make sense. ๐Ÿ˜ณ

    Bashing fellow sufferers โ€” especially those trying to work towards solutions โ€” seems unproductive & perhaps (unintentionally) divisive? ๐Ÿ˜ณ

    Divisiveness appears to be a by-product of bashing fellow sufferers over the head. ๐Ÿ™ƒ๐Ÿ”จ

    ๐Ÿ˜ณ

    .

    ______

    The Tom O'Bryan's & Clint Paddison's of the autoimmune community seem to 'bring people together' โ€” cooperatively โ€” in the spirit of discussing & sharing solutions in an open & friendly way.

    They've freely shared their information โ€” of course, with the caveat: 'there's no guarantee this works for everyone'.

    Then again, my medical team, doing the very best they can, with the knowledge/ training they have โ€” also provide no guarantees . . . ๐Ÿค”

    [I assume/ believe, they are ALL doing the very best they can with the knowledge & understanding they have within the frameworks ('belief' systems) in which they operate. ๐Ÿ‘ I don't believe anyone is operating with the intent of taking advantage of anyone โ€” especially the vulnerable. ๐Ÿ™ ]

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  • [Part 4 of 8]

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    To accuse someone โ€” who's talking about (freely sharing) protocols that worked well for them โ€” of misleading (or whatever) for profit, also doesn't make sense? ๐Ÿค”

    Is it the equivalent of storming into our physicians' offices & accusing them of intentionally misleading us & exclaiming their salaries/ livelihoods are 'taking advantage of our unwell, vulnerable state'? ๐Ÿ˜ณ

    Should we demand that our physician's consultation time (& the meds they prescribe) be free? ๐Ÿค” That they should not be compensated for their efforts? That they should go to work each day & not be paid for their labours? ๐Ÿค”

    If their recommended protocols don't work for us (their prescribed meds fail us), should we go into the public square (or on a forum) & accuse them of "taking advantage of us'? ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿค”

    Or, accuse them of disseminating flawed/ bogus information to intentionally mislead us so they can rob us of our hard earned money? ๐Ÿ˜ณ

    ๐Ÿค”

    .

    ______

    Again, perhaps my over-simplistic way of viewing things? ๐Ÿค”

    Dunno . . .ยฏ\_(ใƒ„)_/ยฏ

    [I certainly don't have any answers, suzannedale, merely 'pondering aloud' โ€” sharing my thought process. ๐Ÿ™ ]

    .

    ______

    A 19 out of 20 track record seems pretty good โ€” especially if you're one of the 19 who has improved. โ˜บ๏ธ

    Probably doesn't sound so good if you're the 1 out of the 20 who hasn't improved. โ˜น๏ธ

    [Haven't a lot of familiarity with Tom O'Bryan's work, so haven't much experience there. Have found the overarching concepts similar to (overlapping with) the whole food, plant-based dietary/ lifestyle sources I've learned from over time . . . ๐Ÿ‘ ]

    .

    Again, perhaps this is just my over simplistic layman's perspective, which isn't useful/ relevant. ๐Ÿ˜ณ

    .

    ______

    Maybe not everyone is (or can be) helped using dietary/ lifestyle means in conjunction with their meds? ๐Ÿค”

    Yet, enough of us are helped (to a significant enough degree) that we talk about it amongst ourselves โ€” and share our experiences with others who are interested. ๐Ÿ™

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  • [Part 5 of 8]

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    Aside:

    Bit of a giggle, when my med team (professional, allopathic-trained specialists, credible authorities/ experts in their fields) tell me to "just keep doing what you're doing". ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ˜„

    Have to smile. ๐Ÿ˜Œ

    They don't understand what I'm doing (nor do they seem terribly interested in it), yet they see 'something' is going on; it's helping (at least for me). ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ˜ฏ ๐Ÿค—

    That's just about the best endorsement that what I'm doing is 'right for me' at this point in time, at this stage. ๐Ÿ‘

    For my (extremely) conservative, allopathic-trained specialists โ€” to happily ๐Ÿ˜Š reiterate "just keep doing what you're doing" indicates something is going on with the process & various techniques I've been implementing over time. ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿค” ๐Ÿ‘

    If they (the experts) don't understand it (can't explain it) โ€” I sure as heck can't. ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ™ƒ

    [Whether it's 'Leaky Gut Theory or not โ€” the process I'm following & the multitude of things I'm implementing 'appear' to be working well. No one is 'hung up' (stuck) on theory.]

    We all just keep marching forward & continue implementing & continue monitoring, etc. [So far, so good, knock on wood (knocking on head ๐Ÿ˜ณโœŠ ).]

    .

    ______

    As far as the factual probability of 'Leaky Gut Theory' as still being merely a 'theory' . . . well โ€” I'm in no position to argue that.

    I can see how, though, for anyone concerned with another person discussing something as 'being a fact' โ€” when that thing is not yet proven to be 'a fact' โ€” that would be upsetting for those of us who like to keep our facts clearly delineated on 1 side of the line or the other.

    I get it. I get it. ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ‘

    .

    ______

    I guess for some of us who aren't overly concerned with 'fuzzy / blurry lines' these ambiguities don't trouble us (or they prove moot in our personal experiences/ understandings). We just accept them as a 'possibility' & don't worry about it.

    I guess the point is: a 'theory' may not be 100% accurate, but whatever the elements are that we are actually implementing that are working for us โ€” that's the thing that counts.

    (Whether it 'falls in line' with a particular theory, is a wonderful thing for medical/ science people to understand, but doesn't necessarily concern those of us seeking immediate 'boots-on-the-ground' relief.)

    .

    ______

    We really don't concern ourselves with the theory or 'mechanics behind it'. We're just concerned with if the actual 'nuts & bolts, step-by-step things we are doing (processes we are following)' are working for us โ€” despite whatever 'theories' those steps are based upon. ๐Ÿค” ๐Ÿ‘

    If the roadmap ๐Ÿ—บ we're following is leading us in the right direction (feeling better & better ๐Ÿค— ), then we just keep following it.

    Think perhaps some of us are at the point where if something works for us, it works for us โ€” if it doesn't, it doesn't. We don't expend time or energy wringing our hands over the 'limbo state' of theories. ๐Ÿค”

    Our lives have been reduced to a rudimentary pragmatism that sees things at 'face value' in 'the here & now'. If something works for us we continue on; if it fails us, we move on & adjust our approaches/ techniques accordingly. ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿค”

    Pretty basic.

    Nothing fancy.

    .

  • [Part 6 of 8]

    .

    The information I've gleaned about the 'Paddison Program' (PP) is freely available to 1 & all from the presentations, website, podcasts, facebook, etc..

    It's all on the Internet easily accessible via Google search. I'd even created posts linking to abundant free whole food plant-based dietary/ lifestyle & PP resources from (in my opinion) 'respected, reputable' medical/ science professionals:

    ๐Ÿ†“ Dean Ornish, Neal Barnard, T. Colin Campbell, Caldwell Esselstyn, John McDougall, Michael Klaper, Michael Greger: healthunlocked.com/nras/pos...

    ๐Ÿ†“ FREE Whole Foods Plant-Based Diet/ Lifestyle (WFP-BD/L) Info for Interested Autoimmuners/ RAers: healthunlocked.com/nras/pos...

    .

    [These are the people I learn from. I wouldn't take the time to share their information if it hadn't helped me โ€” or if I didn't think it would be of interest to fellow travelers on similar journeys. ๐Ÿค” ๐Ÿ™ ]

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    The 'money making' aspect โ€” in the face of abundant, freely available, easily accessible information โ€” appears to be inaccurate. Any serious seeker has access to the information at no charge, no expense, nothing 'out of pocket'. . . ๐Ÿ†“

    (Merely time' & willingness to learn & try โ€” not money.)

    Perhaps a 'bit of a joke' (on all of us), it doesn't appear Clint Paddison has "preyed upon the sick & vulnerable" at all.

    In fact, quite the opposite.

    .

    ______

    It appears he's pulled a 'Tim-Berner's Lee' ( en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim... ) โ€” without anyone noticing. . . ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ˜† ๐Ÿ˜

    The information is freely available to 1 & all.

    (I guess for a comedian, the joke is on us. ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ˜‚ ๐Ÿ™ƒ )

    The information is there & it's free. ๐Ÿ†“

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    ______

    Merely reading, listening, & learning is all it takes to absorb the abundance of free information.

    If we assess it's something that interests us, we need merely try it (under our medical team's monitoring, of course).

    'Giving a way the candy in the candy store' doesn't seem like 'preying upon the sick, the vulnerable, or anyone . . . ' ๐Ÿค”

    Quite the opposite: a genuinely remarkable generous, selfless act of human kindness. ๐Ÿ™

    .

    [Again, merely my opinion (from my perspective), based on what I've observed. Perhaps others have very different opinions, based on different perspectives/ interpretations of what they've observed. (I can only speak from my interpretation of what I've witnessed.)]

    .

  • [Part 7 of 8]

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    From what I grasp of the 'cure' misunderstanding, that old chestnut ๐ŸŒฐ has been clarified so many times, don't think it needs re-hashing here.

    For anyone who's merely skimmed the source material, it's readily apparent there's 'no cure'. Once we have it, 'we have it' & it's a matter of how 'active' it is โ€” put in (over simple?) layman's terms.

    It seems, some people manage to lower the degree of activity to the point it's on 'mute'. Think that's the 'dream/ goal' of most of us โ€” to mute/ silence/ halt disease activity โ€” to cease pain, cease further bodily damage (joint, organ destruction, etc.).

    Merely reading the aforementioned posts or listening/ viewing any of the podcasts/ presentations or reading the website etc. thoroughly address this misperception.

    .

    ______

    Unfortunately, misperceptions abound/ persist & are sadly repeated, believed, & spread unendingly . . . ๐Ÿ˜ณ

    How does one reel back all the misunderstandings, the misperceptions, the untruths, that have permeated the forum, unwittingly spread by the kind-heart & well-intentioned, yet inaccurately informed? ๐Ÿค”

    Perhaps the attempt to retrieve the 'feathers of unwitting misunderstanding' is futile โ€” impossible:

    .

    .

    ______

    Not as familiar with Tom O'Bryan's work โ€” merely through his free 'Betrayal' series. Which I'd commented on over at: For All Autoimmuner's: FREE 7-Part Documentary with Tom O'Bryan: healthunlocked.com/nras/pos...

    I grasp much of the criticism of the series (& the marketing of it) & see the criticisms' points & concur with the critiques to a degree. ๐Ÿค”

    Sadly, it seems the useful points (to be gleaned) were overshadowed by the series 'flaws', which were apparent & noted by many viewers. ๐Ÿ˜”

    Disappointing at one level, yet insightful/ inspiring on another level. ๐ŸŽญ

    .

    ______

    There are interesting points/ 'concepts' worth exploring for those of us interested in such things. ๐Ÿ‘

    Despite its flaws, I appreciated its intent, spirit, effort. Also learned quite a few things without having to spend any money. ๐Ÿ‘ ๐Ÿ™

    Again, so much information is freely available (to each & every one of us); limited finances is not an obstacle. It merely takes time & effort to learn bit-by-bit each day at our own pace.

    .

    ______

    In this light, the accusations (towards both Tom O'Bryan & Clint Paddison) of exploiting the sick & vulnerable:

    ๐Ÿ‘‰ Promoting diet for dollars for health

    ๐Ÿ‘‰ Claiming they know the truth about Leaky Gut and how to cure auto immune

    ๐Ÿ‘‰ Preying on the sick & people desperate for a cure.

    .

    doesn't seem accurate, at least from my perspective.

    .

    The main point disproving those assertions is the information is freely available. ๐Ÿ†“

    [Many of us have freely learned without having to purchase anything.] ๐Ÿ˜ƒ ๐Ÿ‘

    Both gentleman have generously shared an abundance of information at no charge. It 'jump starts' our journeys, gets us thinking, & if we wish, 'trial & error test' foods & lifestyle choices noted. If we run into a road block (get stuck on a point), we merely research our sources for additional options & workarounds.

    .

    ______

    ๐Ÿค” If we've no money, but time, we can spend our time trying to figure things out.

    ๐Ÿค” If we've no time, but money, then we can buy better medical services.

    ๐Ÿค” If we've no time & no money, we can enlist the help of others.

    ๐Ÿค” If we've time & money, we can help ourselves with greater ease.

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  • [Part 8 of 8]

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    I've learned (& continue to learn) from the abundance of freely available information โ€” along with many other people (of limited means).

    The exploitation of the sick, the vulnerable, the desperate seeking a cure, etc, appears to be inaccurate โ€” particularly for those (many) of us โ€” who hadn't spent money & are doing much, much better. ๐Ÿ™

    Perhaps we each perceive things differently โ€” interpret the actions of others differently as they filter through our brains? ๐Ÿค”

    We reach our own conclusions. ๐Ÿค”

    "One man's ceiling is another man's floor . . .":

    .

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    ______

    Am I being naive? ๐Ÿค” Hoodwinked? ๐Ÿค” Taken in? ๐Ÿค” Bamboozled? ๐Ÿค” Having the wool pulled over my eyes? ๐Ÿค” Blindly following 'wolves in sheep's clothing?' ๐Ÿค” Following 'Pied Pipers'? ๐Ÿค” Are we implementers of such approaches mere unwitting lemmings about to fall over a cliff edge? ๐Ÿค”

    .

    Dunno. . . ยฏ\_(ใƒ„)_/ยฏ

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    ______

    Can only speak from my personal experience following a whole food plant-based approach (Paddison Program) โ€” it works well for me. ๐Ÿ™

    That's the only 'evidence' I have to go by.

    And, my medical team continues advising me:

    "just keep doing what you're doing." ๐Ÿค—

    .

    I can't speak for anyone else.

    I can only observe & learn from other's who are also doing well modifying their diets & lifestyles. ๐Ÿค”

    .

    ______

    Hope you're doing well, suzannedale, with whatever methods work for you. ๐Ÿ™ ๐ŸŒบ ๐Ÿ€ ๐ŸŒž

    Vive la diffรฉrence! ๐Ÿค—

    I appreciate & respect your insights & believe you're coming from a 'good place' speaking your truths. ๐Ÿ™ ๐Ÿ˜‡

    .

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    Aside: If you've time, I'd very much appreciate your thoughts on the reply to crashdoll's soundly raised points at post: Wheelchair to Bikram Yoga (in 10 Months): healthunlocked.com/nras/pos...

    .

    We're all struggling to 'work though' this labyrinthian maze.

    It's overwhelming & befuddling as there's no simple, clear cut path for each of us to follow.

    So many twists, turns, bends in the road. ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ™ƒ ๐Ÿ˜

    Truly baffling. ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    .

    ______

    Oh gawd, sorry for blathering on so . . . ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ™ƒ per usual! ๐Ÿ™„

    (Apologies for so many segments, thought it might be easier to follow 'line of reasoning' (& reduce probability of keeling over & dying from boredom ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜ฒ ) if divided into parts. ๐Ÿ™ )

    Merely trying to be unmistakably clear in expressing the 'nuance of thought' โ€” to avoid misunderstandings, upsets.

    I don't see 'definitive', sledge hammer โš’ 'right & wrong' perceptions/ answers/ concepts โ€” just lots of subtlety, nuance, shades of gray . . .

    Keep well. ๐Ÿ™

    .

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