A couple of years ago my RA kicked into high gear, and I tied it to a variety of things, like my mother in law falling and no longer being able to live alone. That led to me getting her into Assisted Living, renovating her townhouse (mostly by myself), etc. Other things happened at the same time (work, school, my own small business) and I placed most of the blame on those things.
About the same time, I found that one of my back molars, under a crown, had loosened. It turns out that it had broken in half from root to crown. I kept waiting for my dentist to suggest something but he just deep scaled it and we went on. Finally I asked him about bone grafts or something and he sent me to a periodontist.
Yesterday I had the molar removed, then bone grafts. My mouth on that side is really sore because he had to dig the tooth root out, and there was so much infection that he had to go into the bone. He said he could not believe I had not been in excruciating pain. I told him that it was tender, but that every day I did oil pulls and used Hydrogen Peroxide in my Water Pic to control the infection. He said that I wasn't entirely successful but that it was good that I had done that much. He also said to NEVER use the H2O2 in the mouth because it will kill some bacteria, but can cause other things to overgrow that you don't want to...
He got the infected tissue out, and on the way home I started wondering if that tooth was the reason for my RA (at least in partial) because it was just dumping loads of toxins into my system. Research this morning indicates that I may have found at least part of the answer for my RA, AND maybe part of the reason the Minocycline is so successful for me.
If anyone else is struggling with a tooth or teeth, I thought I would mention this. Thanks for listening. I think I'm going back to bed since my mouth is so sore.. Have a great day all!
One particular study from Australia, published in the Journal of Periodontology, found that arthritis associated with dental abscess and other periodontal infections is real.
•On the other hand, Dr. Gerald Smith presented a case revealing the connection between dental infections and rheumatoid infection. Smith pointed out that dental infections are one of the often ignored causes of rheumatoid arthritis.
Dental infections due to gum disease, an infected root canal tooth, or the site of a previously extracted tooth can be the source of problem. When protein structures start to degenerate, bacteria, viruses, and fungi can combine to produce thiol ethers, a form of toxin. These toxins can be circulated to the whole body and can be concentrated on the knee, hands, and other joints. This triggers the attack of the immune system causing inflammation and pain of the joints.
One over looked source for initiating rheumatoid arthritis are dental foci. Dental infections whether from an infected root canal tooth, gum disease or sites of previously extracted teeth all provide the potential of 300 to 400 different pathogens. Bacteria, viruses and fungi or any combination plus degenerating protein substances from tooth structures produce toxins (thiol ethers) which circulate throughout the entire body. Concentration of poisonous substances within a knee, hand, finger or other joint will cause inflammation. This was true in MT's case. Within one to two years before the onset of her RA, she had a root canal treatment performed on an upper left lateral incisor. This seemingly innocuous dental procedure resulted in a streptococcus inflection that remained present for 34 years. An x-ray of the treated tooth showed no visible pathology. Unfortunately a high percentage of root canal treated teeth (75 percent or more) become infected, exhibit none of the usual clinical signs and symptoms of pain, swelling or redness yet spew out their toxic waste products that affect distant sites.
A noninvasive approach utilizing technology developed in the 1930's was used to resolve the streptococcal infection within the tooth. Following two treatment sessions, MT's rheumatoid arthritis resolved by 90% and she stopped taking the Enbrel. No additional therapy was instituted at the time of treatment. This patient has regained a pain free quality of life. The key factor was the removal of the underlying cause -- infected root canal tooth -- which started the release of the tumor necrosis factor.
I am always dubious about an article which uses a single case study to use as evidence that a treatment works.
I notice too that the wording is very careful. It states that the study individual “regained a pain-free life” and that the RA was reduced by 90% without stating how this was measured.
From other scientific studies, it seems likely that Rheumatoid Disease activity is associated with dental sepsis and that we should look after our dental health carefully. But it remains to be shown whether dental treatment can “cure” RD. There must be many people with RD who do not have dental sepsis too.
I agree - no cure for RA that I know of. However, there had to be something that started this and I really wonder if that is it, or at least part of it..
I'm never sure where to check facts. I know that Snopes is not an unbiased source, but people refer me there all of the time... But thanks for the information. I just think it will be interesting to see what happens to me in the next few months as I get the toxins out.
Also, I found a series of articles that indicate that an infected tooth can raise the CR-P test level, and that is the one test I have left that is out of range at this point.
I have just looked up "International Center for Nutritional Research (ICNR)" on quackwatch.com and see that they are regarded as “questionable”. So I would be very wary of taking any articles here as good evidence without corroboration from other more reputable sources.
I had a root canal and crown done on my lower molar June 2006. My dentist said it was really infected as she continued to do the root canal. The pain was extreme. My dentist then did a gum graft June 2013 because she said that old root canal molar started to effect my gums. One month later I developed RA.
Yesterday as my dentist was cleaning my teeth she noticed that the crown is loose and there is decay under it. She gave me a referal to an oral surgeon as I have to get the whole thing extracted.....makes me wonder....June 2006 root canal on infected tooth & June 2013 gum graft needed because of problem old root canal. RA startes July 2013
I have read recently....doing a LOT of reading as I can't drive with this bloomin' plaster on my arm.....that dental hygiene is now "thought" to be extra important to older(?) women with RA. It just waffled about bacteria & as usual had no real proof!
But it's a good excuse for a new tooth brush. I just bought two battery run travel brushes on QVC (£20 ish) & they are excellent!
Happy Brushing from Bored out of her mind!
Please excuse if I write drivel .....I am so frustrated....I can't even pull papers out of a filing cabinet with one hand & don't even attempt to unload the DW! And it's at least two more weeks until I'm unplastered!
Awwww - Sorry for that. I had a flare a couple of years ago that I thought was a broken hand. Turned out not to be, but they put me in an immovable splint anyway for ten days, so I kind of understand, and definitely sympathize...
As for the teeth thing, I think (my personal opinion) that dental hygiene is much more important to our overall health (everyone's) than originally thought or ever knew. I wish I had been more careful when I was younger, but no insurance and not much money.
Yes there is no real proof, just a theory. I asked my gp about dental hygene and RA and he said there is a connection, but they don't know what it is yet. He said does RA cause dental problems or are dental problems the cause of RA? Which came first? The Chicken or the egg?
When we were in Australia we stayed with a lady who was a member of a group (hesitate to call it a cult!) who believed that all sorts of diseases were cause by root canal treatment. They believed that the 'poisons' as they called them, were spread round the body when the canal was prepped for filling. Also fillings in teeth were positive death sentences. As a dental professional (which she didn't know) you can imagine my reaction to this. A swift dig in the ribs from my wife, as we were guests there, sort of tempered my response. And we sat through a film on the subject by the leader of this group. It was like watching a comedy. Watching the men in black film was more convincing to prove aliens walk among us than the 'science' in the film on the 'dangers lurking in your teeth'! So to conclude, there has been, to my knowledge, no link between teeth problems and the onset of RA.
Sorry - Not trying to offend anyone or offer up witchcraft solutions.
The only reason that particular root canal failed is because the amount of pressure from my jaw broke it from crown to root according to my periodontist. Then I was unable to get deep enough cleaning it to stop it from getting infected. I have about four other root canals and they seem to be fine, as do my fillings.
I just think that it is possible for high levels of toxins to impact the immune system, and the timing was interesting in terms of the worsening of my RA. Just looking at everything...
I guess we'll know in a few months - It would be awesome if I could get off of the meds and get to pain free..
No offence taken😃. People have all sorts of things that happened just before RA hit. I was running courses and travelling world wide, so taking lots of flights the three years before mine started. Was it air pressure changes? Strain on my body? Who knows?
Sorry to hear about your tooth though. Ouch! What a mess. I'm surprised it got that far without a dentist spotting it😳
Yeah - He never really said anything except that it was loose... It wasn't until the periodontist that it was discovered that it was broken. Yeah - It's a bit of mess at the moment, but I will be glad to get it healed..
I know what you mean about the traveling - When all of this started 6 - 7 years ago, I had been traveling by plane for the prior 20 years every week. Who knows? I just keep looking for answers...
About six or seven years ago was when mine started. Perhaps we travelled on the same airlines or airports, or crossed in the sky. We've found the link CaerylUSA😂😂😂😂
I was long haul air cabin crew for 25+ years & still have all my own teeth....so I don't think pressure can affect the teeth - unless maybe you had an abscess & even then I never heard of that.....but pressure sure can affect your sinus cavities & that is pressure related!
As a dental professional what is your take on the latest "advice" doing the rounds to not rinse out the toothpaste after cleaning? I have tried it.....but I'm not sure about it.
Re not rinsing after brushing is modern thinking and advice. It keeps the toothpaste (with fluoride) on the teeth longer so more effective. But your right #CaerylUSA it does make your mouth feel yucky. I still rinse by the way. But don't tell anyone I'm going against dental professional advice 😂
I was kidding with caeryl about the flight thing agedcrone😉 And yes I know about the sinus cavity bit; hold the nose and swallow going up and going down😏. There is a dental related thing about fillings though. Astronauts and deep sea divers, or any one going into extreme pressure changes, have to make sure their fillings are ok or have them replaced. Otherwise if there is any air gap under the filling it will expand and the tooth will crack at best or explode at worst! Not nice if you are in space and the nearest dentist is on Earth 😳
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I think I would prefer witchcraft methodes to cure this dang disease..... lol.... I'm not looking forwards to "going under the knife" to remove this tooth, oh the pain, and I have to stop mtx for awhile until I recover...... So I will hold on to the hope that this theory is true.
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I hear you - maybe that is why I keep looking for a definitive answer so that I know a definitive approach to at least remission - ha ha
My doc teaches classes in sedation and pain management under surgery, so that part was not too bad. Today however, it hurts like all get out, even with Ibuprofen, etc...
I didn't expect to be on a soft diet for a month either.. sheesh. Good thing I like potatoes and scrambled eggs..
Fingers crossed on your procedure.. Let us know how you do?
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Yes, let's keep in touch about our results. I see my oral surgeon on the 16th of Jan.
Were you under full anesthesia or were you awake? My dentist thinks I should be knocked out, but if I want to be awake. I'll wait to see what the oral sugeon says.
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I was awake. But he is a sedation / pain management specialist and it went pretty well. One thing he told me is that the more infected a person is the harder they are to sedate. He had to re-deaden me several times because he was scraping so deeply. I think they may want you awake because it needs a bit of your cooperation. My doc is awesome.
At one point I was in quite a bit of pain, and was biting down on his thumb. His comment was "So, okay now, you are good for biting down." ha ha
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I've been knocked out about 12 times and everything was fine, except one time. I woke up during a c-section and since then, I'm scared to be knocked out.
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I understand - I came awake during a hysterectomy... "Go back to sleep honey. We're taking out your uterus.." Sheesh
Isnt there's a difference in you saying one month later you "developed"RA and then saying it was interesting that after the root canal you saw a "worsening" of your RA
Sorry, I didn't fully understand what you are saying there
I've had RA for six years, but it was only a short time after breaking the tooth under the crown that it got worse.... That was two years ago, and about the same time I started on MTX. Hopefully that makes more sense.
No worries - I just had a thought that I was very excited about..
I'm not saying that my RA was caused by a "failed" root canal. I don't know why I have RA. I just find this conection interesting. It may be al coinciidental
The NHS believes there may be a link to RA and gum disease.
Errrm. Sorry. But read the article fully. It clearly states:However, we need to be cautious in this assumption, as none of the experiments involved people. There may be more to be discovered in the human form of the disease, which has complex causes.
And yes research is ongoing on this and lots of other causes.
Well, they are a little painful, but the only reason mine failed was the crack in it. I wouldn't be too afraid. I think Suzannedales may have been caused by putting a crown on while it was still infected and raw...
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That's righ CaeryUSA. It was still infected when a crown was put on it. I knew this was odd, but my dentist (for over 15 years) said she could deal with the infection during the root canal.
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Yeah - And it's hard to distrust someone you have gone to for that long...
You can't do root canal treatment if there is a crown on the tooth. How was the dentist going to get into the root and pulp chamber? Through your chin?😳. All sounds very odd, but maybe there was something else going on?
No no dtech you misunderstand. I had a toothache and my dentist did a root canal on it while it was still infected, then she put a temporary crown of it. A week or so later she put on a permanent crown....not so permanent it turns out.
Ah ha! Darn patients, you never get the full story😂😂😂. Sorry, I see what happened now, the RC treatment failed, as it sometimes does if all the infected pulp is not removed. The technique for doing this is improving all the time with better files, but it's still not guaranteed. That's why specialist periodontists make so much money😉
Yes it failed. I never knew it could. I do like my dentist but, I just think she made a mistake by not allowing the anti biotics to "kick in" before doing the proceedure. Lesson learned.
I could give you a lecture on what happens when the pulp gets infected and causes an abscess below the root apex. But I'm worn out with all this typing. And my lecturing rate is usually£100 an hour plus expenses😉😂
I'm too afraid to google this knowledge of what can happen when the pulp gets infected. So I will live in my naive world and let the oral surgeon do his magic.
dtech, does the UK have a limit per tooth?. In Canada, since my tooth had a root canal & crown it is considered not covered anymore as it is considered, for lack of a better word, "done".
There are three 'bands' for NHS dental treatment. Root canal treatment would cost £53.90. Bit cheaper than $1100😏. But if you needed a crown on the tooth it would go into band three which would be £233. Still cheaper than yours! But a dentist is duty bound to restore your dental health, so no matter how much treatment you need: fillings, crowns,dentures, scale and polish. They should all be covered by the £233
About 120 years allanah. Although it was pretty basic treatment in those days. I wouldn't have fancied having it done in the mid 19th century without modern anaesthetic 😳
Who knows. I was having a good discussion with Amy-lee on her post about gum disease and my family history.
Anyways I am personally hoping that this is true for me. I will be having the whole root & crown extracted because it is decayed. I am hoping all sighns of my RA will disapear....sigh** one can only dream eh?
Lol... finger, eyes and legs crossed..... Dang my logical personality!! I know this is a pipe dream....Yesterday, I just happened to go to the dentist and discovered I have to get my crown & root canal extract...then I read this post and got excited........ so I need this theory to be true for me... lol..only time will tell
Hey Suzannedale. When is/was your tooth extraction? Just curious if you found any pain relief after removal. I had a tooth that was "fixed" a few years ago and it has bothered me ever since. I've read certain cases where removing the tooth provided healing to RA symptoms, etc. I'd be interested to see how your situation pans out. Please let us know. Thanks!
Here is a link to Amylee's post about gum disease. We had a good discussion just days before my sheduled dental cleaning. This is the post that made the back of my neck hairs stand up straight.
My first introduction into the possibility of tooth infection causing auto-immune disease, was reading about a study where a tooth was removed from a pain sufferer, and implanted onto a rabbit. The rabbit soon appeared to exhibit the same ailments that the person, and the person soon became well. I've also read similar cases on blogs where folks felt much better after getting an infected tooth pulled.
I look forward to your post visit post. Thanks for sharing that article. I'll have a look at it. Good luck with your visit!
Just to add re-teeth, I had my baby teeth extracted when I was 3 years old. Apparently I never slept and cried every night. I remember the dentist coming to the house with all his equipment. I was fine after. My theory is at age 5, I got measles and it effected my right ear, I was given antibiotics to cure abscesses and boils about every 3 months or so, till I was 16 and had a mastoid op. When I married I suffered from cystitis for many years, more antibiotic's till I had a hysterectomy aged 40, 5 weeks later I got lupus/ra. Not proven of course, nobody in the family with RA. I'm sure so many antibiotic's played havoc with my immune system. Who knows.
I was on antibiotics for 6 months when I was 22. Not long after I began getting severe stomach and intestinal pains. Not long after that I began getting chronic lower back pain. Over the years the pain progresses into all over body pain. I was just diagnosed after 14 years of this hell with RA. I too have always wondered if the antibiotics wreaked havoc on my immune system. Especially since the stupid doctors never told me to take probiotics while I was on the antibiotics. Interesting to hear your story. Best of luck with your health. Sounds like you've been through a lot.
Thank you for sharing, It would be good if they looked into any connection with immune problems and long term antibiotic use. In those days we wouldn't have known what probiotic's were, let alone take them. Wishing you all the very best. X
Have a nice restful day & I hope your mouth feels better very soon.
But what you say could well be the case Caeryl.......many years ago a good friend suffered really badly with tonsillitis....had it almost monthly. Eventually he had a tonsillectomy & a year later had renal problems & eventually renal failure & a transplant.
Nothing was ever proved, but his doctors did say that " possibly" all the bacteria that he swallowed from his diseased tonsils had damaged his kidneys over the many years....from childhood to removal of the tonsils at about 30.
I'm pleased to say after his transplant he lived many happy & productive years.
I know that is nothing to do with RA, But it makes you wonder doesn't It?
But I think I'll hang on to all my teeth for now! I lost my tonsils on my 25th birthday....a few years ago!
Thanks AC - I hope you feel better too.. My husband still has his tonsils which always surprises me when I think about it. When I was a kid that was one of the first things they seemed to say to parents - ha ha.
I'm so glad your friend did will - I have a friend on the liver transplant list - he is number 8 right now, so while we are not wishing for anyone to die for him to get a liver, we still hope for the best for him...
Yeah - I love my teeth too. I have most all of them, and I had grafts on Wednesday, then I will have an implant and a different tooth put in. That will be painful too, but the end result will be great.
Me again....here in UK we always remark that Americans have such great teeth because they drink so much milk as children. I always subscribed to this as well until recently my American Californian cousins told me they've had veneers on their teeth since they were 20 !
So all my dreams of all that calcium growing great teeth seems to be a myth!
In UK I think it was around the 1950's when just about the only anti biotic available was pencillin they pulled back on tonsillectomies & hit you with pills.
These days it's quite rare for kids to have their tonsils out & I don't think many young people even know they have adenoids which were usually removed at the same time!!
I wonder how medicine will have changed in 2070? I really hope things are a lot more successful for RA !
I still have all my own teeth too.....I consideredvhavingbthem whitened, but .(a) I'm allergic to so many things......so I''m terrified it would go wrong & they.'d all fall out,
OR
(B) I'd end up,looking like those walnut brown Florida seniors with glistening white gnashers! Not a good look!
DES (diethylstilbestrol) is a man-made (synthetic) form of estrogen, a female hormone. Doctors prescribed it from 1938 until 1971 to help some pregnant women who had had miscarriages or premature deliveries. At that time it was believed that these problems might have been caused by low levels of estrogen in the woman’s body. DES was used to correct this problem. It was given to millions of women in the United States & Canada during this time.i
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Des babies are more prone to certain cancers and/or deformities of the uterus & such. My mother took this drug at the time my uterus was forming thus I have 2 uterus,, 3 ovaries and one cervix.
Yes it caused me many problems as I had no idea I was one, but the proof is in my anatomy and DNA. My mother doesn't like to think about it, and I don't blame her. This medicine was given out to most pregnant women here. There is a rising concern for Des grandchildren now. Was Des not given in the UK?
I think the drug I mentioned in my last reply ...called something I think like Gonotrophedrin may have been similar to DES?
The one drug over here that caused multiple birth defects was Thalidamide in thev60's I think, which was given to pregnant women in their first trimester to ease morning sickness. It caused babies to be born with multiple deformities, the most common of which were they were born without arms or legs or sometimes without both.
Absolutely tragic......large sums of compensation were paid, but I don't remember if it was paid by the Government Or the drug company.
Yes I read about that...I had a cousin with MS, but unusually in MS patients who are usually optimistic & upbeat, , she suffered from severe depression & refused any medication & sadly died in her 40's...her MS became much worse after her only child was born & despite therapy &" all sorts of intervention she couldn't be helped ...leaving her husband with their 8 year old daughter.
I hope her daughter and husband can find peace. Bless them
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Oh Wow Suzannedale - No wonder you know so much about it..
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I really wish I didn't, CaerylUSA, know anything about Des children.
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I know you do... I'm so sorry for that...
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No worries CaerylUSA . I don't cry over spilt milk. Being a des daughter just makes me investagate ,to the best of my ability, anything & everything that I put in my body.
In the deep dark corners of memory I seem to remember there was something similar over he years ago. It was thought to have caused the children conceived using it never to reach full height & was discontinued .
I must say I have been really anxious about Dmards & now Biologics......but sitting in the dark crying with pain concentrates the mind....& when I was at that stage I would take anything to stop the pain.
I'm now 3 months into RTX & I was fearful the crashing fall I had in December would bring on a flare but it hasn't ...so maybe the noxious substance is doing "the business"?
I think you are talking about the drug thalidomide. Des was thought to be the better drug as it was older than thanthalidominde. Thalidomide didn't come to Canada until 1960 or so.
So me being a Des daughter, it is understandable that I don't trust or like drugs. I had to force myself to have trust in the dmards.
No.....it was called something like Gonatdophomine...I just wrote a long note on Thalidomide...but it wouldn't send.
Thalidomide wasn't given to aid the actual pregnancy it was given in the first trimester to calm morning sickness.....I think it was originally developed for travel sickness of all things. Large sums of compensation were paid but I can't remember if it was paid by the government or the drug company.
I think you misunderstood my last answer ...I'm on Retuximab infusions
RTX...not MTX.
I took methotrexate very successfully FIR 7 years, but it went rogue on me. Big time & I had to stop taking it ...tried Leflunomide ...lost a ton of weight....then existed on Depo injections until Rheumy said Biologics seem to be the answer & so far so good, but early days yet.
Like you I am quite sure my two hidden abscesses triggered the outbreak of my RA. This does not mean that I would think it was the cause. In my case I believe RA was brewing in my body on many fronts but my immune system was still coping more or less normally. Perhaps more a question of the straw that broke the camels back. Like you I have read a lot of studies on the connection of RA and toxic bacterial overload in mouth and am convinced that it is often a strong player.
I am with you 100%. My inflammation Travels. Right now it is in my teeth and caused 2 infections I didn't even Know I had. Found out from dentist today. I have zero joint pain becausw Now the RA is in my mouth. Oh, Joy. Lol
I felt very sick since yesterday but could not find the sourse. Wow. So 2 infections in my jaw and no joint pain. 15 Years ago I had a root canal and Boom full blown RA. I only need my pain to know it is all connected☺. Hope you feel better. Oh, later I found out that the dentist that did my rootcanal left some nerve in that tooth. Never had pain and never knew he left bacteria in my gum. Have a blessed day.
Good thing to get ridd of all brewing infections in teeth, root canals can be time bombs if not followed up regularly. I'm still trying to cope with my RA once it has been triggered impossible to reverse it. Good luck with your teeth. Simba
I’ve struggled with serious tooth decay much like what you described but upon removal I’ve never experienced relief from Ra. And my Ra came before my teeth problems. I have learned the opposite. That dental problems are as a result of Ra- bone loss, compromised immunity, Sjögren’s syndrome - dry mouth etc leads to bacteria growth and resulting tooth decay.
It’s hard to say. Any “causes” of Ra are best guesses in hopes of controlling or curing the disease. As we all know there isn’t one.
I’ve also read many “studies” on gut bacteria and Ra but many change their diets and have varying results. I personally haven’t had much success with diet. My Ra does what it wants when it wants.
It would be nice if it could be pinpointed but each individual case is so different.
Ra is an autoimmune disease, so it does make sense that prolonged stress to the immune system either infection, poor nutrition, extreme stress could cause a malfunction somewhere along the way.
Me personally, well I experienced many stressful and traumatic situations in my life from the time I was a small girl. I think my body just had enough. Stress remains a big trigger for me. But I’m also learning that my lineage and genes may play a role as I learn more about my parents where they lived and their health.
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Root canal work and arthritis
Update on my rantings of bad dental work and RA.
Anyone on Benepali had root canal treatment?
