Reached out to a Married Woman

[Maximus2019]

I posted about a month ago about how I had been texting a woman, who worked nearby my work:

healthunlocked.com/my-ocd/p...

She has two children- 2 and 5, and told me she was separated. When I reached out to set up a meeting she told me that she reunited with her husband so could be in communication anymore. I respected the decision but reached out two weeks later by text to ask how she was doing. I felt guilty that I put her in danger of her husband seeing my text and being violent against her. They are from Brazil which I think of as a very macho male culture, although that might be to some extent a stereo type.

With the advise of people here I refrained from further reaching out to her. A month went by of successful resistence. Then, last week, I saw her on the first floor of my building looking very attractive as I walked in. We exchanged a few brief pleasantries then I went back to my office. I sat and couldn't stop thinking about her and couldn't handle the self restraint anymore. So, I went back down to see if she was still there which she was. I offered her to come into my office to have a drink of water which she did.

She complained about how her husband forces her to work seven days a week. She seemed very unhappy in her marriage. During those few minutes she was there I tried to kiss her but she refused saying she just wanted to be friends. I tried to convince her that she shouldn't be held prisoner. She debated a lot, but said that this is not the right time for her. She left and I called her an hour later.

Apparently her husband has full control of her phone! I got a call back from her number ten minutes later. I then called her back on a different number because she told me he had my number blocked, and he picked up the phone! He barely spoke English and said "who is calling". I made up an excuse and just said someone left something in the building and I wanted to see if it was her. I apologized and we hung up.

Now I am worried that he has killed her. Am I responsible for this if he did? To make matters worse, she wasn't in the building on Thursday which is when she's usually there, so I don't know if he did something to her or not and can't confirm.

I appreciate your help.

[avoidingthebadthings]

Do not call her again. She doesn't want to be involved with you, and you can't seem to control yourself when you're around her, so being friends with her is impossible. This is not your drama to get involved with. It is too triggering for you and will not end happily for anyone involved. She may want a kind ear to listen to her problems, but you cannot be that person.

[Maximus2019 in reply to avoidingthebadthings]

I agree. Is it OCD for me to think he killed her, and for me to think I’m responsible if he did?

[SCC1 in reply to Maximus2019]

I think it's OCD if you keep thinking that way. There are no facts that this person would kill her. You are projecting your fears onto this person, and in that, taking unnecessary responsibility for what you think may happen- which it can't just because you think it will.

I hope you find peace with this. xx

[Maximus2019 in reply to SCC1]

i appreciate this and your prior help SCC1!

[Sallyskins]

Abuse and coercive control happen in all countries. I'm sorry to say that it happens in my own country of England.

Leave her alone, for a start, if you can't control yourself around her. She needs a friend, and all you could do was try it on with her and try to coerce her into having sex with you. That isn't being a friend; it's trying to take advantage.

She obviously needs space before she considers another relationship. And she is unlikely to want a relationship with a man who tries it on with her when she simply wants friendship and support. She has enough coercion in her life already - she doesn't need you adding to it.

As for handling your self-restraint - it's something that you can and must do. It's a myth that men can't control themselves sexually. They might not be able to control their physical responses, but they must control their behaviour.

If she has, or does come to harm, then that is solely the responsibility of her husband. It is not down to you. But don't go making things worse for her. If it's impossible for you to be a real friend to her then leave her completely alone apart from a polite acknowledgement when you run into her.

Perhaps learn to read signals from women before pouncing. A lot of men are bad at reading signals but it can be learned. And don't take politeness or friendly conversation as an automatic come-on. And don't pounce. There are better ways of initiating a relationship.

[Maximus2019 in reply to Sallyskins]

Thanks Sally I appreciate your help. I just wanted to clarify the part where you said “coerce”. I assume you meant that as a metaphor for coming on too strong? I never touched her or tried to coerce her in any way.

[Sallyskins in reply to Maximus2019]

Trying to kiss a woman - pouncing on her - if she hasn't given you any signal to suggest that it would be welcome, or trying to persuade her into having sex if she is unwilling, is coercive. And doing so when she is in a vulnerable state is clearly out of order.

A kiss normally happens when two people move towards one another simultaneously. Signals, conscious and unconscious, are flying back and forth at lightning speed. Sparks fly. Each party knows that they want to do it and that the other also wants it. It just happens.

It's quite different from an unwanted lurch. And if a woman (or a man for that matter) really needs support because they are feeling vulnerable or low, it's best to lay off any attempt at making a pass.

[Maximus2019 in reply to Sallyskins]

I see what you mean. I thought by coercive you meant using physical force or threats which did not happen. Btw there was some spark between us existing over the prior two months.

[Sallyskins in reply to Maximus2019]

Coercion can take many forms, including emotional pressure or inappropriate attention. And I think, given this woman's vulnerable state, your attentions and intentions were inappropriate. There may have been a spark, but it's best to leave things alone right now.

[Maximus2019 in reply to Sallyskins]

i agree thanks.

[Maximus2019 in reply to Sallyskins]

do you think it’s ocd to be thinking he might have killed her?

[Sallyskins in reply to Maximus2019]

I think that could be part of it, but don't put it all down to OCD. It's best to make sure you act appropriately towards women, learn to read the signals so you know if your sexual interest is returned - and learn that women can be friends as well as sexual partners.

[Maximus2019 in reply to Sallyskins]

Thanks. I know there are some aspects of this- like my thinking I should have acted differently by just engaging in general pleasantries, that are not OCD. I am agreeing with you on the social/ethical aspects of this situation as far as the approach I took. I am right now, though, specifically asking about the part where I am thinking he killed her. If we isolate that aspect of it, is that aspect of my thinking OCD? You said "that could be part of it." Does that mean thinking he killed her is only part OCD? Then I worry that you mean there is maybe a real chance that he did. Or did you mean that part of it is OCD? I've been stuck on this for weeks now so I'd greatly appreciate helping trying to resolve this and separating what is OCD from what isn't.

[Sallyskins in reply to Maximus2019]

I'm not trying to say that at all - merely that your anxieties over your responsibility for anything that happens to her could be down to your scruples about how you behaved towards her. If anything does or were to happen to her, that responsibility is down to her husband alone, not you.

So perhaps it is partly OCD - it makes us assume that something is our fault. But there could also be a measure of conscience over how you behaved towards her, and maybe you are feeling a bit guilty about that. She needed a friend, and you tried to take advantage of that to make an unwanted pass at her.

It's best not to beat yourself up about that. Better to learn from it and take that to any future relationships, whether friendly or sexual, with women.

[Maximus2019 in reply to Sallyskins]

thank you that makes sense.

[Maximus2019]

I appreciate everyone’s help. I do realize I messed up by trying to make an advance at the wrong time. The problem now though is the heavy amount of compulsions I am doing to make sure he didn’t kill her. I tried calling from two other numbers just to see if she was alive and would pick up. Once it went straight to voice mail and the other time it rang a few times then went to answering. I was planning to hear her voice then hang up. I also want to stay late after work on Thursday, which is the day she usually comes, just to see if she’s ok. I don’t intend to do anything more than that. (Side note she does not work with me or for me- just in the same building one day a week or so).

This is stopping my ability to work and is harming not only me but the people who depend on my work, I need some specific OCD advice on how to deal with these symptoms. Or should I just accept these compulsions as punishment for trying to kiss her?

There is another single girl, who is single and studying psychology, who I made a genuine connection with recently, but I can't even text her because of all this guilt I have. I began talking to her at a café that I like to go to about once a week, and I have never approached a woman to talk to there before. She said she admired that I did a brave thing. We then had a great date a few days later. I may lose her while I am obsessing about whether or not the lady from my building was killed. I feel like I don't deserve a relationship anyway if I put someone in danger like I did. OCD makes sure we are not happy or productive.

Please help. Thanks

[SCC1 in reply to Maximus2019]

Hi again. I know you've heard from me a few times, I just want to let you know that you are not being punished for kissing her. OCD has nothing to do with punishment. It is a mental illness that makes us think a certain way, and also wants us to do compulsions, such as the one you are doing by calling her and wanting to stay after work to make sure she's okay. That is all OCD and only that, not a punishment.

If you stayed after work or continued to call this person, it might make you feel better knowing she is okay, but she would also be okay if you didn't check this out. And, hypothetically, if she weren't, that would be from something that would have happened anyway.

We have to live with uncertainty with OCD. I've heard here, that when one has bad thoughts, they should tell themselves, "Maybe 'it' will happen, maybe 'it' won't." But you have to try to trust the uncertainty. That way, you are not giving the compulsions power.

I hope I can help at least a little.

Take care.

[Maximus2019 in reply to SCC1]

Thank you this is so helpful- living with uncertainty is definitely something I need to get better at and I want to try to do that here. Ironically, I think that even if I see she’s ok my mind will move onto the next obsession which may be even stronger than this. Is it likely to play out that way that even me seeing her ok will just be a faulty bandaid over a big wound where the ocd is the wound?

[SCC1 in reply to Maximus2019]

Yes. I was going to say the same thing, I wasn't clear how I should've said it though. Sorry.

The OCD will take 1 thing then lead it to another. I know for myself, I've had the same experience. I had thought I had "finished" one problem, but then there was another related one to take its place.

I don't know how to help with that, since I have not had an actual learning experience on how to handle it. The intensity of the OCD going from 1 thing to another, hasn't been that high for me for a while.

It could have gotten better from meds, but if it was from them, I don't know which one. But, I know too well, the maddening road this takes one on.

I really hope you can feel better; OCD is a hard thing to deal with. For myself, it "hurts" my brain.

[Maximus2019 in reply to SCC1]

Yes, and not only does doing a compulsion only snowball the ocd (after providing very temporary relief), but I think in my case there is another problem as well: Even if I see she is ok, I may be more tempted to do something wrong again like I did with her before. If I just accept the uncertainty, I will probably be less likely to engage in such behavior again because I know the anxiety that I will then have to live with. Doing a compulsion to treat the anxiety is almost addictive, and it's as if the ocd will want me to do something wrong like that again, after getting short term relief, just to be able to bug me. Does that make sense?

"I don't know how to help with that, since I have not had an actual learning experience on how to handle it. The intensity of the OCD going from 1 thing to another, hasn't been that high for me for a while." Did you mean you don't know how to help with ending the cycle of moving from one obsession and compulsion to another? Your advice to me I think is I think the way to help end the cycle- by not performing the compulsion, it cuts off the cycle. I know sometimes we will give in and that's ok, as long as we tell ourselves we'll win the next time (that's something I read that was very helpful to me).

So, reading your response was a good reminder to me of how to handle this situation, and I think in my case I need to try and break the cycle by not trying to see if she's ok. As you pointed out, there is little benefit. Even if something happened, which seems unlikely, it happened already, and I can't change it. It's as if I'm just trying to satisfy my ego by proving to myself that I didn't cause something bad to happen.

[SCC1 in reply to Maximus2019]

Yes, you are right about what I said, that not doing the compulsion helps break the cycle. What I was saying, though, was that there was so much intensity and my compulsions and thoughts were almost attached to each other, going on and on (in the past), and I was going off that experience when I said I didn't know how to help with that situation at that time. I know more now, so I'm saying what currently helps.

And I know this doesn't make much sense, and I'm so sorry. Sometimes my thoughts get screwed up, and I can't put them down the right way.

But go with what I had said about living with uncertainty. That is the best way to do things.

And, absolutely, what you said about the OCD being addictive and temporarily easing the anxiety, makes total sense!

Sorry it took me so long to respond. I couldn't get my thoughts together to write this.

[Maximus2019 in reply to SCC1]

I so appreciate you helping getting me through this! ... and you explained things well! The living with uncertainty part definitely resonated.

[SCC1 in reply to Maximus2019]

Thank you. I have a very hard time with the uncertainty part. For me, I'll have an unwanted thought and immediately have to do a compulsion, like there's something "pushing" me very strongly to do it, like an internal "force".

I compare doing compulsions with someone taking their hand off of a hot burner- it's an immediate reaction. I just have to do them right away and don't even have the chance to question not doing a compulsion.

[Maximus2019 in reply to SCC1]

It's like the saying in between the pause between stimulus and response is the freedom to choose. Jeffrey Schwartz had a lot to say about this in the OCD context.

[SCC1 in reply to Maximus2019]

Yeah, I just have to feel that pause long enough to be able to choose. That's a really good comparison!

[Focusedmind]

In your prior post, I replied, "I think having OCD is really hard in a situation like this because you want to know the answer right now, and you can't, or you may mess it up for her or yourself. So, allow yourself to listen to your "wise mind" (not OCD) and be patient."

I personally know this is one of the hardest things to do because I also have OCD. I get my mind off something by distracting myself with something else or many other things. As "Sallyskins" said above, "If anything does or were to happen to her, that responsibility is down to her husband alone, not you." So, try not to let your guilt from OCD interfere with your life, especially this possible new relationship with the girl from the cafe. I would focus on getting to know her better and distracting yourself from thinking about the other.

It is also possible that the Brazilian husband knows there are problems in their marriage and has limited his wife from returning to work in your office on Thursdays. Rather than harming her, he may try to restrict her exposure to you.

[Maximus2019 in reply to Focusedmind]

That definitely rings true about wanting to know right now. I tell myself I wont be able to live my life until I do "x"- in this case check if she's ok. The problem is I'm spending so much time needing to do x that I'm not doing what's important or what I want. I appreciate your advice which is making a difference for me.

[Focusedmind]

I am certainly like that, as well! I have to really work at not being misled by my OCD on issues I am focused on. I really feel for you, especially in this case as it is something you are very passionate about!

What is good in your life is that you may have met another woman who may be able to help you with this OCD problem as she studies psychology and might be a possible love interest as she's not tied up in a marriage!

[Maximus2019]

Thanks we'll see what the future holds! Things have already improved a lot for me this evening from you and other's advice here!

[Maximus2019]

Unfortunately, when I came to work today I saw another women cleaning the place and it appears that she took the place of the woman who I interacted with. This is now increasing the chances in my mind that her husband killed her. Should I apply the same advice that was given now that I have this new information? Thanks

[Focusedmind]

Cleaning buildings is often very strenuous employment and therefore turns over quite a bit. So, it may be that she decided to leave because of the difficult job or that her husband decided that she attracted the attention of a male who called her phone and asked her to quit. I doubt he took the extreme action of killing his wife because you hardly had a real "relationship," as you only talked to her in-depth once. I think this is your OCD acting up. And it certainly would have been easier to persuade his wife to leave her job.

[Maximus2019 in reply to Focusedmind]

Thanks