Tribunal

[Martine]

I have got to attend a tribunal regarding my carers and motability allowance being reversed. I was wondering if anyone has been in the same situation and can give me any advice. I have tried my local cab office but have no success so I am representing myself. Please help

[jes58]

The best advice that was given to me was: You NEVER have a good day. Even if it is stress at the thought of your next flare up. Once you tell them you have even an odd good day...... You lose. I'm sorry to have to say this but You have to really play on the things that you have wrong with you. I hope this can help you.

[Skid]

Hi Martine,

Good Luck. Think positive about things and give it your all.Make sure you have lots of notes and back up letters from gp`s consultants etc. we will all have our fingers crossed for you. skid x

[kulie13]

Hi Martine

I'm a welfare rights adviser and I'm sorry but I have to disagree with jes58 - tribunal panels will need to hear about the ups and the downs so that you are completely credible. I would say it is better to ensure they understand that MOST of the time you cannot do the tasks. Technically that means at least 51% of the time, so a bare minimum would be 4 days out of 7 or perhaps 3 weeks out of 4. Obviously it would be unusual if on some days someone had absolutely no problems at all, but it is often the case that the problems can be occasionally less serious and disabling on some days. Don't be frightened of admitting this - just cover yourself by saying how much you suffer as an after-effect when you overdo things, and how unpredictable your energy levels are. If you have attempted a longer walking distance at some time, tell them about the experience - for example you tried walking to your local shops, but it caused a downturn that lasted a month, that sort of thing.

That way you do not lay yourself open to a possible future charge of fraud and a risk of having to pay back all your benefit - if at some point in the future they see you walking 100m and you have told them you can only walk 30m, that is what they can charge you with. They have a very active fraud department that actually videos people out walking. If you have told them that VERY OCCASIONALLY you have been able to manage a longer distance, they can't touch you.

For Lupus, arthritis and fatigue are often the main issues that will bring you into eligibility for DLA - so I am assuming that these are your issues, and if I assume wrongly please let me know. Also depression as a result of such a big life change is common. You can emphasise the after-effects of attempting any task such as walking, so perhaps any exertion can mean you are bed-bound for days afterwards. For your care element it is important to show the frequency with which someone else has to help you with the kind of tasks that are on your DLA form, e.g. getting out of bed, having a bath or shower, getting dressed, using the toilet, getting out of a chair, using the stairs, cooking for yourself etc. It doesn't count if someone has to do your housework.

If you don't have a representative, it is not the end of the world - but I would advise you to take a friend or support person of some kind, and it is especially useful if they can make any comments about how they have witnessed you being in a state or had to help you with your personal care. The panels do take a lot of notice of that.

During a tribunal hearing you are the one who has to answer all the panel's questions, but any friend will get their chance at the end to make a contribution - they will be invited to speak. When the panel are asking you questions, just answer them as honestly as you can, making sure you give them the detail rather than just a yes or no. For example, if they ask whether you have been on holiday (yes, they do ask that sometimes!) explain to them any special arrangements you might need to have made, e.g. getting a wheelchair arranged to get you around the airport.

I have been to hundreds of tribunals as a rep. They are supposed to be informal compared to courts, and you are certainly not on trial. They are fact-finding, so just take care to give them the detail of the correct facts about you - you are an individual, who will be different to anyone else with Lupus, so it is not about the disease, it is about YOUR daily life and experience of Lupus. If you have any additional medical evidence or letters of support, make sure you take them with you.

If you need any more help, let me know.

[bettie in reply to kulie13]

Hi

I have SLE, COPD and diabetis, I have been claiming DLA for just under a year, I was told when I fill the forms in is to put the worse days that I have which I did, and now I feel worried after what you said some days I can do more than others but I do pay the price by having to rest the next day. I see now what you have said makes sence. I will be nervers going out the door now just incase I am beening whatched. I don't know when they will review my claim, do you know if it is a set time say after a year or two or is it anytime ? worried

[morlobach in reply to bettie]

Don't worry Bettie, they are not out to get you, it's to catch the fake applicants. When it comes down to proof, you have your doctors proof, your medication renewals and treatment over the past years... they cannot just ignore a condition because a non qualified person claims you can do more than you say. Especially with this condition. These people can do research too and surely know that it fluctuates... ( of course if they have a video of you running a marathon you might get in trouble ... hahaha joking )

[morlobach in reply to kulie13]

To some extend I agree with you , but with all due respect, not with the distance walking. There is a rule now that even if you can only occasionally walk more than 50 meters you do not qualify. They will not take into account the after affect... just whether you can or not. I have been guided by the disability officer and at that point I could rarely walk 50 meters unless I pushed myself over the limit and caused several sleepless nights which then caused flare up. He specifically said if this is the case you cannot walk the distance ... simple! Giving the impression you can occasionally, gives a different perspective. Of course there are fraud officers about, but if you are really ill you have nothing to worry about. They are there to catch the fraudulent people not to hassle real ill people. I sometimes use a cane, sometimes two crutches and on bad days my wheelchair. I even try to get down the ramp using the trees and rocks as support. There is no rule that says you are wheelchair bound or obliged to use crutches... as a matter of fact , if I can hold on to someone or something else that's fine too... point is , I need support. and in my wheelchair I can ride your socks off.... ( it's a quickie active life) Lupus has many faces and many forms, overall you have to tell them about your worst day and your daily discomfort which causes the disability. You have to explain it fluctuates, but you are never the equal of a person with all ability, even on a good day you will have to weigh off your energy and amplitude to make sure you do not provoke a flare up or over do it. That is important, The Disability officer changed quite a few expressions on my paperwork... I just tried to be honest, but honest is not enough, it needs to be very exact terminology and clear how much the condition impacts your life in good and bad times. THAT is what determines the grade of disability... the need for care, help and assistance of people and aids.

Hope you accept my experience too Kullie

[kittykat68 in reply to morlobach]

very well said

[Lulabelle in reply to kulie13]

Very sound advice - something that i will take on board! Thanks lulabelle x

[NiksB]

Hi i have been honest on what i have filled in the forms and have sent all the paperwork i could to the tribunal board and i get to see them next week i have had this hanging over my head since last October and i will be glad to see the back of it. I get the lower amount and to be honest i think i should now be on thee higher amount so i think its worth fighting for and the fact Sle follows different paths for everyone it must be difficult until you meet them to know what their life is like.. So good luck i dont think there is a right and a wrong way for the tribunal but if your honest and you tell them what its like on a bad day which for me is mostly everyday then its out of your control. Good luck....

[kulie13]

I respect anyone's experience and especially I don't want to make anyone feel paranoid that a fraud officer will be jumping out the bushes anytime soon - it is just a caution that you need to be aware of if someone advises you to overstate your case. And I'm sorry but in my 15 years' experience working as a welfare rights adviser, covering hundreds of appeals, I have never heard of "There is a rule now that even if you can only occasionally walk more than 50 meters you do not qualify. They will not take into account the after affect... just whether you can or not." Any tribunal panel has to follow the law. The legislation and case law indicate that they MUST look at what you can do most of the time, and if they don't you can challenge their decision to an Upper Tribunal as an error in law.

NiksB you say you get the lower amount - do you mean mobility or care component? You get high rate mobility for a physical walking difficulty, and only the low rate if you can technically walk but only go out to unfamiliar places if someone is there to supervise or guide you. For care, there are 3 rates - you get low rate if someone has to help you for about an hour a day with your personal care, and it only moves to mid-rate if you need help frequently throughout the day with personal care (i.e. there are no lengthy periods when you can be left alone) or you need supervising all day to prevent danger to self or others. You get high rate care if you need help day and night. So feeling that your health has declined doesn't automatically move you up to a higher rate, because there can be quite different criteria that you are assessed by.

I think what you did was great by being honest on the forms and sending in whatever evidence you have - that is by far the best approach.

Bettie, don't worry. You just need to explain that you were advised to fill your form out in that way, and it sounds like it is accurate most of the time anyway. They will review your claim when it is due for renewal, unless you got an 'indefinite' award, in which case you will probably get reassessed anytime from late 2013 onwards. Everyone will end up being reassessed between Oct 2013 and 2017, because DLA is being replaced by a new benefit called PIP. I will write some info about PIP on my blog page when I can.

[bettie in reply to kulie13]

Thanks Kulie 13, I will look out for your blog on PIP, your blogs are very helpfull, It's times like these when goverment are changing such a lot that it's very handy to have somebody like you to explane in English what it all means

[kittykat68 in reply to kulie13]

wheres you blog please

[Caroine]

Kulie13 great to have someone like you on this forum.Your information is eye opening and educative, not claiming but this is handy

[nipy]

got to have assessment for dwp for my benefits havent worked for long time some days i cant leave sofa anyone got any info on this please

[gertie]

Unfortunately Martine your case is not unique the same thing is happening all over the UK to thousands of people suffering from illness and disabilities: it is disgraceful how the current system is operating.

There is an upside to having a tribunal and I dont mean the stress of it or the interrogation from the 3 person panel but you do have a chance to explain your day to day struggles and battles to the panel rather than having to fit your illness into a box. Just ensure you prepare for your tribunal and be forthright about not only your illness, mobility and care needs but how it affects your whole life.

Good Luck

G

[kulie13]

Nipy if you tell me which benefit you are being assessed for, I might be able to give you some advice - is it ESA or DLA?

I completely agree with Gertie, the current law is a disgrace, and unfortunately set to get even worse. I know this is possibly asking too much (I know from personal experience that when you are ill you cannot fight for your rights because fighting exhaustion and pain takes up all your energy) but if anyone has the time/inclination, can I ask you to please look at this:

dwp.gov.uk/docs/pip-assessm...

and this:

dwp.gov.uk/docs/pip-second-...

Just look at the second document from page 12 onwards.

These documents are a DWP consultation on their proposals for PIP (which will replace DLA); the first document gives case studies of how the rules will apply, and the second document shows their second draft of the Regulations which gives details of how they will assess PIP, which will be very similar to current assessment for ESA, i.e. with a point-scoring system. Unfortunately this consultation closes on 30th April.

This is a big ask, so please don't feel guilty if you can't do it. But this is probably the last chance to get them to improve what it looks like. After this consultation closes, they will prepare their third and probably final draft - they might do some tiny tweaks to the third draft but I don't believe they will do much. All you need to do is look at what these new rules would mean for you. If you currently get DLA, just check to see if you would get PIP. If the answer is no, see what is missing from their assessment that does not cover your experience and your problems, and just write them a simple letter telling them how unfair/unjust it is that you will no longer get support. Note that if you don't score at least 8 points under either category (daily living/mobility) you will not get PIP. So you might like to comment on how many points they award for each problem area as well.

You will find an email and an address to send your response on this page:

dwp.gov.uk/consultations/20...

[Martine]

Thank you for all your comments, they all seem very helpful and I will take them all on board. I am very nervous and stressed but I will have my husband there who has been very supportive through it all. I will let you know how I get on and again thank you.

[kulie13]

I should add a PS to my advice about walking - one of the things that can trip people up is when they say they can walk around a supermarket. It is expected that you will walk at least 200m around an average supermarket, and if you do that weekly they have a right to assume you are capable of it without a superhuman effort of will, otherwise you wouldn't be doing it on a regular basis. Even if you say you can only manage it by leaning on the trolley, they will consider that as using a reasonable aid. The test is what you can do before experiencing severe discomfort, but they usually take that to mean the distance before you have to stop on your average day, unless you are fleeing a burning building in which case they will make an exception. So, if you go to a supermarket but only manage one aisle, then make sure you say so. If you tend to sit in the cafe while someone else goes round for you, then say so. I hope that helps. Let us know how you get on.

[else5]

hiya kulie i wonder if you can advise me i am coming up for my state pension in march i have been on higher rate mobility and lower rate care since 2003 will i still get this as i will be on a pension by the time i come up for reveiw the end of the year .can you help thanking you