Healthy Eating
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Olympians say NO to cows milk

Yesterday during the winter Olympics closing ceremony a new campaign was launched featuring olympians who think cows milk is bad for them and for you

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may be cows milk is not good for them.. but am not going to get stornger faster or smarter by giving up butter.

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Butter is good for you. Any veggie-based diet, you wouldn't live long, with your brain cells, intact. This is based on science/neuro science often discussed in old folks homes in Asia where nutritional science is far more advanced than anywhere else. Centenarians aren't created with half baked ideas and false belief systems. I dislike eating red meat for digestive issues, but apparently, beef or lamb would be crucial for your nervous system to keep going well into ripe old age. Growing old really sucks. I wish I could live on "cleaner" diet, but hey....;-)

Don't forget, this athlete may be a public figure, trying to impress the uneducated public, but once she's at home, Ben & Jerry buckets are stashed inside her super-size fridge.

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I suggest you google Blue Zones where people live healthily active lives with regularly as centenarians - all on a whole-food plant based diet.

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So could you define what your "plant-based diet" really is? People say they eat a plant-based diet but they also eat pork, chicken, beef jerky, fish or whey protein shake here and there. ;-) I don't have to google that, I already know and lived in those countries.

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Thank you anothermember. My diet is a whole-foods plant-based diet with minimal oils and also avoiding certain foods that trigger my arthritis (incl nightshade plants ... and oils.) I try to eat up to 50% raw and the rest cooked. There is no animal product in my diet, no eggs, no milk, no cheese, no meat or fish. I also avoid virtually all processed foods. I have no protein shakes. If a package has the word protein on it - I avoid it since that probably means it is overpriced with a sales gimmick.

I cook a large pot from scratch once a week - apart from special dinners. A large pot gets cooked and some eaten. The rest goes into the fridge or freezer in portion sized pots. Cooking a large pot takes me about an hour.

So my fridge is generally stuffed with vegetables, plenty of dark leafy greens. My food cupboards have lots of pots with grains, rice, flours, dried fruit, nuts, pulses & legumes. My herb and spice shelf is bursting with every type possible. I mix an match these flavours without checking on tradition. My fruit bowl has a high turnover and we have a vegetable bowl with onions, garlic and root veg.

I never feel hungry. My energy lasts and lasts. I don't put on weight. I don't calorie count or check my nutritional markers except occasionally.

Oh, and I take VitB12 and VitD regularly (not each day, just when I feel but at least once a week.)

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Hi, andyswarbs

Thank you for your well-considered reply. There was this man, who lived in a jungle for a couple of decades without knowing the war was over. I believe he lived on tree roots, tree nuts etc. Not quite sure if he hunted for animal protein. Knowing how thin he was (whilst he was assessed to be super fit) when he was finally discovered, I doubt he had much of anything. Nuts are very oily. Even if you do not use any additional bottled oil from the supermarket, your diet is rich in essential oils. It must be hard to work out combining veggie protein sources. My hats off to you. Thank you for sharing.

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Rather than an anecdote of one person, why not look at a whole nation. Consider Norway during the second world war where levels heart disease plummeted after the Germans took away all their animal to support the German war effort. drcarney.com/blog/entry/die...

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Interesting. Many of us on this site with GI or systemic chronic condition(s) are probably eating none or less red meat for many years. I was never a big red meat eater, except for my early childhood. If your condition worsens with animal protein however minute, it does make sense to stay away as much as you can. As we grow older, the consumption of red meat does naturally diminish and that's probably quite normal as we do not have to maintain the larger muscle mass/energy in our younger years, lower/declining hormone levels, with the extra burden of systemic chronic conditions, which may continue to progress over time etc. If you are happy/active and feel happy, then that's the main thing.

To many of us who had gone through veganism/being organic/vegetarian in our younger years, we are only adjusting what works here and now. Arthritis is a very tricky condition. I know this as I have it myself and it does appear to affect GI as well. So I can appreciate where you are coming from. You did it right for you and your body.

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yes, all that cholesterol and fat is really good for the brain! Honestly? What about that fat clogging up your brain in future years increasing risk of a brain haemorrhage, dementia. Yes, that's what I call smart, not.

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doom and gloom, fire and brimstone, over a nob of butter 🤔

its not my brain clogged or clogging up, am still well above the average IQ. and with my diet am sure i will say that way 😏

and a smart man like me 🤗 knows when to call it a day.. no point crying over spilt milk..so i will just move on.

good post thank you.

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I am sure your brain is just fine now. That's the way it works, sadly. If you look at the stories of people with chronic conditions ALWAYS they were in brilliant shape one day, but not the next. That's the way it is with cancer, strokes, arthritis, diabetes, you name it. Very rarely does one get an early warning.

For my condition, it is to some extent reversible. Diabetes type 2 is fully reversible. Parkinsons & dementia are largely not.

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This was seemingly in response to the advert that promoted milk with the strapline "9 out of 10 Olympians grew up drinking milk"

The former athlete who spearheaded the ad, Dotsie Bausch, told Adweek:

"I bet nine out of 10 serial killers grew up drinking milk."

.

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Hi Andy, I saw a program that tested rugby players and half had milk after and during training and half didn't and with the half that drank milk their muscles recovered much quicker.

Here's a link about it from body builders:

stronglifts.com/milk-post-w...

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Must I go through and show how the meat/dairy industry pays for the background research on all of these? There are so many, and they just keep on coming - because that is what the dairy/meat industry does so effectively.

All I can do is point you guys & gals to the knowledge. If you believe the never ending stream of sales & marketing research that is your choice.

Just remember one day if/when you start taking tablets for this that or the other, when you reach for the gaviscon or whatever other over the counter meds... Or, and I hope, because I would never wish what I have gone through on my worst enemy, that you never feel the wrath of rheumatoid arthritis just spring up on you one day when you think, "oh that joint is a bit stiff today." And I really truly hope you won't have a heart attack or stroke etc.

Just remember that MY OPINION based on unequivocal independent research is that you are increasing the risk each and every day. Yes a 20 year old can eat McBurgers each and every day and still run marathons. But what about when they are 40 or 60?

This forum is about healthy eating. Please show to yourself how the research was stacked in favour of dairy/meat from the outset.

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Andy, I eat a diet rich in meat, dairy produce, fish etc. I eat wild meat and farmed meat. I have farmed and killed my own animals. I am 50 and the fittest, strongest and healthiest I have ever been in my life. I have no hint of arthritis and take no daily meds (other than supplements like fish oil etc oh, and the Tren and Dbol ;)

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I am sorry if I came across as frustrated.

brocku.ca/news/19176 shows this research was funded by "the diary farmers of Canada". If I can quote just one line from that news article, "Milk has always been associated with benefits to bone health." With that as a starting point where do you think the conclusion of the research might head?

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andyswarbs...it is amazing who backs what, like NRA etc...before i had a quad bypass weighing 120 and no sypmtoms i had been on my nutrional plan of no cheese bread sauces including ketchup..never drank milk but not a vegetarian either.Love salmon.sooo what did this tell me...do the best i can, enjoy life not on extremes and so many things are not pure or natural even when under the label of "all natural"....Genetics are aweful...as a thorasic surgeon sat on my bed..How did this happen.He shook his head....

we do not have any answer for this...no I'm not perfect in what i do but 15 months later stents, heart strong, arteries not....mom dad not....arteries again.Not plaque..arteries themselves.Do the best you can, balance....is my opinion.yes, true, who is paying for the research and where does it come....best wishes and great points.

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I am shocked!!! :O This is really going too far now!

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Most people grew up drinking cows milk and nobody thought anything bad about it , but all of sudden milk is unhealthy and we have to stop having it and go plant based and nobody thinks there's an agenda there??!!

Hmmmm.

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I too grew up drinking cows milk. I too drank my free milk at school, and if the chance arose had a spare extra bottle. The research into how milk was unhealthy has actually been around for many years, but only with the advent of the internet and social media has it found a voice that can be heard above the din.

Personally I put 90% of the reason I have arthritis down to 60+ years of drinking cows milk, eating cheese. I go further any put diary down to arthritis in many people's lives who have arthritis. If you go on ANY forum concerning diet and arthritis and look for question such as "what should I give up to ease my arthritis", the resounding answer is always - give up the dairy. That's not me saying that. That is individuals with arthritis all over the world. It is people who have done tests on their own bodies, often similar ways that I have.

My agenda is purely to help people avoid chronic illness. That "agenda" is why I am part of a "healthy" eating forum. I know that the arguments I put forward often sound like complete heresy in a world where almost all processed foods contain milk in one form or another.

If you ask any of the plant doctors - McDougall, Greger, Esseltyn, Campell and many more - why they do what they do it is not because they have an agenda. It is because the research is overwhelming. Just to talk about one person's credentials Colin Campbell has been in research for 60 years with over 300 papers, most peer reviewed. He didn't start with a vegan "agenda". Instead he started with a project of how to make more protein available to "poor" countries. That junction of studying protein with "poor" countries put him front and center of understanding that poor countries health issues did not correlate with the american focus on meat protein, and that ended in The China Study.

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I'm quite anti antibiotics & growth hormones that are found in most of the milk that's sold to the public.

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Does anyone remember when eggs were bad for you? Etc...cells made mostly from protein, and yes, purer the betterMany babies in the 1800's died from milk disease from cattle but..than you have to think of cleaning methods etc.Life is short enjoy with reason..titles of people like Olympians...are people.right and wrong...

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Yes me too, but you can find milk without, luckily, by purchasing organic.

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Afaik the majority of the world is lactose intolerant.

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My cousin is a dairy farmer so I will stick to supporting her I think.

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I have a nephew who has cows.

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I got to milk a cow at my 40 yr old birthday wish...it was awesome...for me not the cow...

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Hi Andy,

I watched that video, and it wasn't clear why those Olympians were giving up Cow's Milk - they didn't seem to explain 'why' in any great detail, except that they stated that they felt healthier for doing so, and preferred to do so. Of course, that is their choice, and I can completely respect that, but I can also imagine there will be another group of Olympians who prefer and advocate drinking cow's milk - and there could be a similar promotional video made using such a group.

I have looked out some articles which look informative about milk:

Article from ‘Medical News Today’ by Megan Ware, Dec 2017:

“Cow's milk has long been associated with good health, making it one of the most consumed beverages throughout the United States and Europe”

medicalnewstoday.com/articl...

Healthline article on Dairy Products:

healthline.com/nutrition/is...

Experts Answer: Is Milk Really Healthy for you? By Lauren Cox, Live Science Contributor (Live Science):

livescience.com/36512-exper...

Article about “Cow’s Milk, Grass-fed”:

whfoods.com/genpage.php?tna...

Personally, I am glad that I am able to easily tolerate drinking cow's milk, and I am even more pleased to be in Guernsey where I can drink milk from Guernsey cow's - the milk is really gorgeous to drink, and I feel very healthy as a result of drinking it. I have skimmed milk in my tea, semi-skimmed milk in my coffee and I have full-fat milk with my porridge on weekends as a treat. Really delicious and yummy.

Personally, I am convinced by the many articles which advocate the health properties of milk and dairy products, and I will continue to choose to drink it.

Zest :-)

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Zest the advert was in response to a milk board one stating that 9 out 10 Olympians grew up drinking milk. See my reply above for the lady who made the adverts comment on this. Always the 'nonvegans are murderers' rhetoric.

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I hadn't read the replies, Rignold - I was just keen to mention that there are lots of healthy reasons to consume cow's milk, if you can tolerate it. It's such a healthy food-stuff, according to the evidence and articles I've seen. :-)

Zest :-)

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Indeed. There is also a huge amount of evidence that children who grow up drinking milk have fewer allergies too.

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E T Crowley, L T Williams, T K Roberts, R H Dunstan, P D Jones. Does Milk Cause Constipation? A Crossover Dietary Trial. Nutrients 2013, 5(1) 253-266.

N W Clein. Cow’s milk allergy in infants and children. Int. Arch. Allergy 13: 245-256 (1958).

A Carroccio, G Iancono. Review article: chronic constipation and food hypersensitivity – an intriguing relationship. Aliment Pharmacol Ther. 2006 Nov 1;24(9):1295-304.

S Daher, S Tahan, D Sole, C K Naspitz, F R Da-Silva-Patricio, U F Neto, M B De Morais. Pediatr Allergy Immunol. 2001 Dec;12(6):339-42.

E Crowley, L Williams, T Roberts, P Jones, R Dunstans. Evidence for a role of cow’s milk consumption in chronic functional constipation in children: Systematic review of the literature from 1980 to 2006. Nutrition & Dietetics Volume 65, Issue 1, pages 29–35, March 2008.

G Iacono, F Cavatiao, G Montalto, A Florena, M Tumminello, M Soresi, A Notarbartolo, A Carroccio. Intolerance of cow's milk and chronic constipation in children. N Engl J Med. 1998 Oct 15;339(16):1100-4.

I Irastorza, B Ibanez, L Delgado-Sanzonetti, N Maruri, J C Vitoria. Cow's-milk-free diet as a therapeutic option in childhood chronic constipation. J Pediatr Gastroenterol Nutr. 2010 Aug;51(2):171-6.

G Iaconoa, S Bonventreb, C Scalicia, E Maresic, L D Primad, M Soresid, G D Gesu, D Notod, A Carrocciod. Food intolerance and chronic constipation: manometry and histology study. Eur J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2006 Feb;18(2):143-50.

M Abdel-Aziz El-Hodhod, A M Hamdy, M T El-Deeb, M O Elmaraghy. Cow’s Milk Allergy Is a Major Contributor in Recurrent Perianal Dermatitis of Infants. ISRN Pediatr. 2012;2012:408769.

A Carroccio, P Mansueto, G Morfi, A D Alcamo, V D Paola, G Iacono, M Soresi, G Scerrino, Emiliano Maresi, Gaspare Gulotta, G Rini , S Bonventre. Oligo-Antigenic Diet in the Treatment of Chronic Anal Fissures. Evidence for a Relationship Between Food Hypersensitivity and Anal Fissures. Am J Gastroenterol. 2013 May;108(5):825-32.

S M Dehghani, B Ahmadpour, M Haghighat, S Kashef, M H Imanieh, M Soleimani. The Role of Cow's Milk Allergy in Pediatric Chronic Constipation: A Randomized Clinical Trial. Iran J Pediatr. 2012 Dec;22(4):468-74.

F Andıran, S Dayı, E Mete. Cows milk consumption in constipation and anal fissure in infants and young children. J Paediatr Child Health. 2003 Jul;39(5):329-31.

V Loening-Baucke. Prevalence, symptoms and outcome of constipation in infants and toddlers. J Pediatr. 2005 Mar;146(3):359-63.

G lacono, MD, A Carroccio, F Cavataio, G Montalto, M D Cantarero, A Notarbartolo. Chronic constipation as a symptom of cow milk allergy. J Pediatr. 1995 Jan;126(1):34-9.

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have you really read all those papers, andyswarbs ?

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I wish I had the time. Fortunately we have Dr Greger who is trained to read them and others as his full-time job - so I/we don't have to.

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"Dr" Greger is one of the most thick-skinned frauds I've ever come across, and the diet industry is full of people vying for that title.

Someone who has a book titled "How Not to Die" is pretty much guaranteed to be a bit too full of himself. Have a read of his book. He references a whole bunch of papers to support his diet; I checked a few of them and it turns out several aren't even tenuously related to the point he's making. Apart from anything else, he misuses scientific literature; specifically, he cherry-picks. So I reckon he isn't trained to read and critically evaluate scientific papers: medical doctors (AFAIK) just don't, because the vast majority will never enter a research career. I'm guessing it's an optional module in their degree course, and Greger didn't take it.

Andy, some people thrive on milk and some don't. Same with meat. You could argue it's a pretty weird food - I mean, seriously, who first thought of milking a lactating animal? - but athletes in particular find it to be a useful source of protein, calcium, etc. The only clear evidence of health risk involves substituting cow's milk for human milk, but most adult milk-drinkers don't subsist on milk exclusively.

As for the milk industry, it's worth pointing out that what passes for "milk" today just isn't. It's full of who-knows-what drug metabolites, the cows are abused, and the feeds are trash. Whatever might be wrong with industrial milk, I suspect (but can't prove) that milk from naturally-raised animals is radically different.

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Dear TheAwfulToad I think to put the Dr in quotes says more about you than it does him. He's not for you, that's fine.

However did you know that ALL the proceeds from sales of How Not To Die book go to charity? His website NutritionFacts has no adverts, no pills you can buy. I think before judging someone you should take such a position into account. The vast number of "health" websites offering advice, which includes "buy my pills, buy my book, buy my courses" etc etc. Not so with Dr Michael Greger.

Please quote examples where he cherry picks. He does not include any industry funded research afaik. Is that what you are referring to. Certainly that approach is something that I support, as is hopefully clear from my posts.

Did you watch the interview with MIlton Mills that I posted below. Perhaps you might also want to put his Dr in quotes since his opinions probably are at odds with yours. One of his comments in that video that interested me is how he considers anyone who holds a "milk is good for you" on behalf of a nation/country is being racist. His argument is around the poor outcomes for people with dark skins who when they have prostate cancer (which he attributes in at least some cases to dairy) have much worse outcomes than Caucasians.

In context of this he does say that some people can digest and make use of milk. So perhaps you are one of those people. He goes into the technical detail of lactose in part of his discussion, and I found that interesting. His main argument however is that whatever benefits you can get from milk you can get elsewhere without any of the possible disadvantages, including prostate cancer.

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I put "Dr" in quotes because IMHO he should be struck off the register. He only gets away with it because he repeats official received wisdom - low fat, whole grains, eat yer greens etc etc etc. If he were pushing LCHF he would have been prosecuted years ago - as indeed several doctors have been, despite being able to demonstrate real therapeutic results.

I'll try to find some specific instances of cherry-picking and misquoted research (I don't have the book with me right now). "Cherry picking" has a precise meaning: it's the act of searching for papers that (appear to) support your position while dismissing contradictory ones (typically more numerous) out-of-hand. It has nothing to do with industry support.

It's worth pointing out that dismissing contradictory results is not, in itself, unscientific. However there are certain ground rules for doing so: broadly, you must find some flaw in the methodology or the logic which was followed to draw conclusions.

I stand by my assertion that he's a fraud, a huckster, a snake-oil salesman. I'm not saying that simply because I dislike him. I'll post my reasons when I have time. Note that I HAVE actually read his book. I do seek out contradictory opinions because that is how, in the words of my favourite scientist, we can avoid fooling ourselves.

>> One of his comments in that video that interested me is how he considers anyone who holds a "milk is good for you" on behalf of a nation/country is being racist.

Yes, that is pretty much the level of discourse he works at.

>> buy my pills, buy my book, buy my courses" etc etc. Not so with Dr Michael Greger.

That is EXACTLY what he does. He makes most of his money from speaking engagements.

I haven't watched the Milton Mills video, so I'm not going to tar him with the same brush; I'm speaking specifically of Greger. Who is a fraud, as I may have mentioned.

>> He goes into the technical detail of lactose in part of his discussion, and I found that interesting.

Many people who react badly to milk (especially in the West) are not actually lactose intolerant. They are allergic to the milk proteins. Obviously, milk allergy/intolerance is a thing. Some people can't drink it. And some people ... can. So it seems a bit daft for the people who can't to proselytise about how terrible milk is. It's a bit like people who are allergic to peanuts telling us about the evils of peanuts (which do, incidentally, carry a cancer risk, although I think they screen for aflatoxins these days).

>> His main argument however is that whatever benefits you can get from milk you can get elsewhere without any of the possible disadvantages, including prostate cancer.

I'm sure you can. But since milk doesn't cause prostate cancer, the "possible disadvantages" are purely hypothetical: a lot of his book is like that.

pcrm.org/health/health-topi...

Note the issue with low-fat milk, which we're told is better for us. It is astoundingly difficult to tease out the various effects of dietary components, but if milk genuinely was the cause of prostate cancer, you wouldn't need sensitive statistical tests to pick up the fact. It would be blindingly obvious.

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Are you arguing that a human being is not allowed to have an income? Come on be serious. Yes he gets money for talks, doesn't everyone else?

talks about how Dr Greger puts together a video

You argue the prostate cancer is purely hypothetical. Can you justify this? Remember the links between smoking and cancer was contested and contested by the tobacco industry. A major problem is that cancer can take 10 years to appear before it is medically detectable, never mind dealing with it.

Personally I don't consider low-fat milk healthier than any other cows milk. In fact I consider it in some ways more unhealthy.

I don't agree that things that are blindingly obvious just because they are there. That is not how the mind works. Going back to smoking, doctors were still prescribing smoking to women who where pregnant even as the tobacco lawsuits concluding. Only now after further decades can we see more clearly the health benefits of removing smoking from the general population as smoking related cancers reduce.

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>> Are you arguing that a human being is not allowed to have an income?

Of course not. I'm saying he's earning his money selling flimflam and hyperbole. Also, his books seem to be largely geared towards promoting himself or his website. He clearly believes what he's saying, but his statements are so outrageous it's hard to take any of it seriously.

If he were just a showman, I wouldn't mind, but he's selling people false hope. His followers genuinely think that if they eat like sheep they won't die, or at least won't die early or horribly. Sure, a vegan diet is better than a burgers-and-fries diet, but someone who eats his veggies with meat or dairy is statistically no more or less likely to have a shorter or more unpleasant life. You can get a guaranteed life extension by throwing away your TV and walking to work. I should write a book about it and do the talk-show circuit.

>> Remember the links between smoking and cancer was contested and contested by the tobacco industry.

The page I quoted suggests that the link between prostate cancer and milk is dubious at best. The TL;DR version is something like this: "normal" men are diagnosed with prostate cancer at roughly 1.5 cases per thousand per year. Vegans are diagnosed at about 1.0 per thousand. Hmmm. Might be the milk they're not drinking, might be something else. And the question remains: what's causing the other 1 case per thousand?

>> A major problem is that cancer can take 10 years to appear before it is medically detectable, never mind dealing with it.

I don't see how this is a major problem. Statistics for milk-drinking and prostate cancer and readily available. If there is a link then obviously there will be a timelag, but that in itself doesn't make the link hard to see.

Of course you're right that casual observation won't tell you what causes cancer and what doesn't: by "obvious" I meant that one would not even need to mention the words "statistical significance" in the research papers. The trend would leap out from the data, as it did with smoking: the risk of cancer is not 30% or 50% higher (as with the purported milk issue) but 23 TIMES higher. In other words, if you smoke, you're almost guaranteed to get cancer. The milk risk - if there even is one - is buried in so much statistical noise it's impossible to be sure what you're looking at.

>> Personally I don't consider low-fat milk healthier than any other cows milk. In fact I consider it in some ways more unhealthy.

Indeed. But the point is that TPTB are endlessly telling us full-fat milk will kill us and skimmed milk is benign. The data is sketchy, but the studies I linked to suggest that men who drink full-fat milk are at no higher risk of prostate cancer than anybody else.

Incidentally, the low-fat craze was a boon for the dairy industry, since they could continue to sell cream to those who want it while suddenly getting a whole new market for what was originally waste (ie., milk with the cream removed).

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It’s finding produce from naturally raised animals that’s the problem ... these labels mean nowt when you look into them properly.

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That's all with raw (And especially A2) milk though, not pasteurised. Pasteurised milk is one of the most allergenic foods and A1 protein can cause many problems in the body too.

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I love Guernsey and Jersey milk😍. We still have a Milkman round our way, the only thing that is different from when I grew up is the silver tops don’t have the cream in anymore🙁. We used to have to get the milk in pretty sharp in the morning or the blue tits would steal it first!.

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Hi Frostie2560,

Yes! I remember when birds used to do that. You brought back some memories then! :-)

Zest :-)

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Me too!! :)

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Interesting the first Deborah Wilson, when comparing cows milk vs plant milk makes no mention of the cholesterol in cows milk, whereas the plant milks have none.

Also this complete red herring about complete protein source. This is a complete red herring. Almost all vegetables, beans and legumes have ALL proteins. They too are complete protein sources.

If, as these articles tout, that cows milk is such a good source of calcium then why is modern society experiencing an epidemic of osteoporosis. Just taking in calcium in milk has simply not prevented bone diseases. Instead bone weakness has increased and increased. What prevents bone disease is good amounts of exercise with sensible amounts of calcium that the body can metabolise.

The first article talks about preferring low-fat cows milk to avoid the saturated fats therein. The last article does the opposite and touts the benefits of whole cows milk. Which is it?

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Because it's pasteurised milk and therefor, lacks the enzymes to digest the calcium, because they are destroyed during the pasteurisation process!

healthy-holistic-living.com...

Also, milk shouldn't be drank without the fat, because the fat is needed to absorb the fat soluble vitamins in the milk.

Also, consider this.....The Real Cause Of Osteoporosis.....

The cause of osteoporosis, however, might not be a calcium deficiency but something you might not have considered: scurvy.

dailyhealthpost.com/cause-o...

And this:

Magnesium and Osteoporosis: Current State of Knowledge and Future Research Directions: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Most people are deficient in Magnesium nowadays, because the soil is so deficient now due to intensive farming practices.

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Dottie, have you heard of the single enzyme theory? The idea is the (human) body has one enzyme that has the ability to morph into any enzyme the body needs. We are certainly in the early days of understanding how enzymes work. I am not saying taking enzymes from foods is not useful or required, just a fully healthy body can do much of the legwork.

Whatever goodness eg vitamins are in milk is very easily and plentifully available in plant foods, with absolutely no downsides. Especially you do not need fats to enable metabolisation.

I agree the real cause of osteoporosis is not just calcium deficiency - in many cases. For some it is that people do not exercise. Have you considered that women have special challenges with men being polite and kind, holding doors open, carrying suitcases, doing heavier tasks around the home and much more. Over the years all this politeness means many women do not get enough regular exercise making them more susceptible. My guiding principle is "use it or lose it."

Whatever deficiencies people have are almost always sorted with a plant-based diet. It is very difficult if not impossible to eat on a varied whole-food plant-based diet and be deficient in anything. This includes magnesium, zinc you name it.

The only exceptions are Vit B12 and VitD. But even 37% of animal product eaters are deficient. Commercially farmed animals are often specifically fed Vit B12 and that is why many meat eaters are not short of B12. B12 is easy to get, it is in the list of fortification on many foods eg almond milk. I get cheap vegan B12 tablets and take one every few days. (You don't need B12 daily.)

As you may be aware Vit D is actually a hormone. At one stage it was added to milk. At that time it was given the name "vitamin" to make milk look extra-healthy as part of the sales/marketing pitch to drive milk sales. I take a Vit D tablet most days, esp in Winter.

The people who need to be extra careful with nutrition are people with specific health challenges, like myself. Like people with IBS, cancer, whatever chronic condition. Each has its own nuances of how to deal with the challenge. Part of that may mean medication either short or long term. But these do not negate the basic principle that a whole-foods plant-based diet is the best way to get fully balanced nutrition with no potential downsides.

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andyswarbs, here's a couple of things you need to know about B12.

Firstly, B12 is mostly made from bacteria, so if you are using anti bacterial soaps etc., then you will be destroying your B12.

Secondly, supplements of B12 are no good, as you can only absorb a tiny amount because it is a synthetic form and so not properly available to the body. There have been 'many' studies that say that both lacto-ovo vegetarians and vegans have extremely low levels of B12 even if they supplement it.

chriskresser.com/b12-defici...

Plant-based Diets, B12 Deficiency, Brain Degeneration and Dementia:

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Dottie,

ALL B12 comes from bacteria.

I don't use anti-bacterial soaps for a variety of reasons. Bacteria are good for us, we need them to survive. I wish I could kill 99% of all sales-marketing bumf.

The studies that showed low B12 in vegans are becoming obsolete. The message has got out that vegans need supplementing. New vegans tend to drink fortified drinks like Almond Milk so they tend to be okay. Hard core vegans like myself take the tabs in sensible ways. My blood tests prove that my B12 is in excellent shape.

I hold Chris Kesser in very low regard. For example the article you posted has the pathetic statement, "B12 is found ONLY in animal products". Anyone who holds that view is distorting the truth to support their own message. Why does he go on about veggies/vegans being short of B12 when 37% of meat eaters are B12 deficient! If consuming meat was the answer to B12 then why the 37% B12 deficiency in meat eaters?

I am not trying to trivialise the impact of B12 deficiency. B12 stocks in the human body last for around 2 years, and to correct all you need to do is take a tablet, a very cheap tablet. But for those who ignore the problem then health consequences can be serious. A study that included vegans showed vegans died aged 60 or thereabouts rather than having longer fuller lives.

So I will take my B12 tablets, spray or whatever casually knowing my B12 is in great shape because I have blood tests to prove it. What is your B12 level, btw? If you haven't had it checked I would strongly recommend it. I would hate for you to be in that 37%.

If you can find non-CK sources to support arguments I would be more interested. I clicked to watch the video and unfortunately an error occurred so probably a problem with the link.

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Well I'm glad your B12 levels are fine andyswarbs and no, I haven't had mine tested, so maybe I will.

In the meantime, I'll leave this here for you:

diagnosisdiet.com/micronutr...

I especially like what Dr Ede says at the end of her 'about' part..

"I also believe that each person’s chemistry is unique. While there are some dietary guidelines which make sense for all of us, there are others that can be more flexible. Some people can tolerate dairy, some cannot. Some do beautifully with all kinds of vegetables, while others have to eliminate certain vegetables in order to feel their best. Some can include “safe” or “healthy” carbohydrates in their diet while others must eat a very low carbohydrate diet to be well. My goal is to provide you with the information you need to do your own dietary experiments so that you can design the diet that is best for you. I hope you enjoy the journey!"

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I know this DiagnosisDiet website a little and again do not hold it in high regard.

It starts with complete wrong information. It says Vitamin A is not available in plant foods. What about sweet potato then? One of the best sources of Vitamin A. Just one cup has 1338% of daily needs. Just one cup. Also important, Vitamin A is not needed each and every day. It is something that needs topping up when short. So once in a while if I have a sweet potato (which I do every two weeks) that's me done. According to Dr Axe the best sources of Vitamin A include Carrots, Sweet potato, Kale, Spinach, Apricots and Broccoli.

It goes on to Vitamin D and COMPLETELY ignores mushrooms as a source of Vitamin D. Please give me strength! Some foods are fortified with Vitamin D, including Tofu plant-based milks. Not to mention plant-based sources of Vitamin D.

It then goes on to Vitamin K and calls it essential. Essential is a word for nutrients that the body cannot make. The human body can make Vitamin K.

I can go on. I have covered B12 many times, so let me skip that here. The page goes on about other B vitamins. WHERE IS THE RESEARCH!!!! It is easy for a web page to claim something but we need to see the research. Otherwise I class it as scaremongering. I know - because I check my nutrition - that I have no shortage of B vitamins across the board. I know that my kind of diet is shared by many many vegans. Some of them even publish their blood test results. For example Mic the Vegan.

Iodine is almost a point worthy of discussion because it is a nutrient you need the right amount of, not too much and not too little. But getting it on a plant based diet is not a challenge. For example how many people eat a normal potato which holds 60/mcg of iodine? So easy.

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Just a brief reply to a couple of things you mentioned.

Yes, Vitamin A in the form of Betacarotene is high in plant foods like sweet potatoes, carrot, spinach etc., but are not an efficient source of Retinol A (Which only comes from animal foods), because most people cannot effectively convert Betacarotene to Retinol. Scroll down to: 'FACTORS THAT AFFECT THE BIOCONVERSION OF beta-CAROTENE' on on this article: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

And: onlineholistichealth.com/be...

Secondly, it is D2 which is found in mushrooms, not D3. D3 is only found in animal foods, hence why people (Like the Inuits) in the Northern Hemisphere rely on animal foods rich in fat to supply their D3 levels, because they don't get much sun and certainly don't bare most of their skin to the sun when it is out, to get their D3, because it is too cold and mushrooms certainly don't grow in these places even if they did supply D3 and not D2! Good article about this here: paleomedicina.com/en/vitami...

But you can get D3 from mushrooms if you place them in the sun...http://www.fungi.com/blog/items/place-mushrooms-in-sunlight-to-get-your-vitamin-d.html

Thirdly, regarding Vitamin K. There are two forms of Vitamin K, K1 and K2. K1 comes from leafy greens and 'can' be converted into K2, but, again, the conversion rate is usually quite poor. K2 is high in animal foods like grass fed butter, free range eggs and kefir and also, fermented plant foods like Natto and Sauerkraut (Though how much you can get from the latter is debatable).

'Humans can partly convert vitamin K1 to K2 in the body. This is useful because the amount of vitamin K1 in a typical diet is ten times that of vitamin K2.

However, current evidence indicates that the conversion process is inefficient, because we benefit much more from eating vitamin K2 directly.

Vitamin K2 is also produced by gut bacteria in the large intestine, and there is some evidence that broad-spectrum antibiotics can contribute to K2 deficiency (27, 28).

Unfortunately, the average intake of this important nutrient is incredibly low in the modern diet.

Vitamin K2 is mainly found in certain animal foods and fermented foods, which most people don't eat much of.

Rich animal sources include high-fat dairy products from grass-fed cows, liver and other organs, as well as egg yolks (29).

Vitamin K is fat-soluble, which means low-fat and lean animal products don't contain much of it.

Animal foods contain the MK-4 subtype, while fermented foods like sauerkraut, natto and miso contain more of the longer subtypes, MK-5 to MK-14 (30).'

healthline.com/nutrition/vi...

Lastly, you say you can take supplements to make up for what you are not getting from a plant based diet, but surely that is just supporting big pharma and if you were eating the diet you were 'supposed' to be eating, then you wouldn't need to take all those supplements would you?

By the way, you also need to supplement with....Creatine, Carnosine, Taurine and DHA (Again, conversion of ALA in plant foods, to DHA can be very poor) and it can be dangerous supplementing D3 because supplements can build up to toxic amounts as D3 is stored in the fat and you shouldn't take D on it's own without extra A, Magnesium and K2.

precisionnutrition.com/stop...

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I know you will carry on with your vegan diet regardless, but it's good to have the REAL facts so you can lessen your chances of deficiencies long term.

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Carotenoids are found in nearly all brightly coloured fruits and vegetables. Not all of these carotenoids can be converted into vitamin A, however. That I agree with. For example, lutein is an important antioxidant, but it has no vitamin A activity. Beta-carotene, on the other hand, has a very high amount of vitamin A activity.

The body will convert D2 to D3. I agree that taking lots of VitD tabs is not a good thing. Sunshine is best.

As I have said the only supplements I take are Vit B12 and Vit D. Yes, supplements are usually made by big pharma. But the relative pain I an putting into this planet and farmed animals by having these tablets is a zillion times less than anyone who eats meat and dairy. And anyone who eats meat and dairy is also supporting big pharma because of a whole range of issues, including all the chronic illness which means, once the illness kicks in, a likely lifetime of drug consumption.

As a personal example when I started my methotrexate I was told in no uncertain terms that I would be on it, and other drugs for the rest of my life. Also the standard practice is to increase such drugs aggressively and add in other drugs apace.

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What fats do you eat andyswarbs and how long have you been vegan, out of interest?

As humans, we are made up of a high amount of saturated fat and cholesterol and therefore it is natural that we should be able to eat saturated fat and cholesterol containing foods, without suffering adverse effects. Also, there have been studies to suggest that replacing saturated fats with polyunsaturated omega 6 and carbohydrates, is detrimental to the body.

The cardiometabolic consequences of replacing saturated fats with carbohydrates or Ω-6 polyunsaturated fats: Do the dietary guidelines have it wrong?https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4195930/

The effect of replacing saturated fat with mostly n-6 polyunsaturated fat on coronary heart disease: a meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/285...

Dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids and cancers of the breast and colorectum: emerging evidence for their role as risk modifiers. academic.oup.com/carcin/art...

Dietary fat composition alters pulmonary function in pigs. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/120...

Saturated fat deficiency causes weakened tissues and deteriorated lung function:

Determination of saturated and unsaturated Fatty acids amount in leukocyte membranes from subjects fed with solid and fluid oils. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/170...

Saturated fat does not clog the arteries: coronary heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition, the risk of which can be effectively reduced from healthy lifestyle interventions. bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/...

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Dottie,

I was vegetarian for 40+ years and vegan for the last two years. I never add oils/fats to my food, except I might cook a curry with coconut milk occasionally (say once every three months or so.) Also occasionally I might use almond milk in something, but again that's once a week at most. Bottles of EV olive oil, sunflower oil, walnut oil, sesame oil stand next to our cooker totally unused.

Last night I had a takeaway curry (sag dahl). That probably had some ghee in it. But it is the safest choice on my local takeaway menu. Strangely I chose to be risky and added some onion bahjee to the order. Deep fried and probably bad for me, but I just wanted to feel a sense of normality with the rest of society a little. Overnight and this morning my right elbow is giving me jip, so I won't repeat that little detour again!

This morning's porridge has a drop of EHA/DHA oil added to it to boost my omega-3. I am learning that if, like last night I had something oily (probaby omega-6) then my body needs more omega-3s.

===

Just because the body has saturated fat and cholesterol inside it already I do not agree that dietary wise we need to add to that. In fact to do so I think can cause our bodies long term harm. Indications such as one day having such things as high-blood pressure are good because they are early warnings that generally we can do something about. Changing to the kind of diet I advocate will bring that high-pressure down in pretty quick order. In fact it if a person has been prescribed high-blood pressure tablets they need to take extra care because the combination of the tablets and the plant-powered diet could put their life at risk as their blood pressure drops. Doctor supervision is critical to ensure tablets are reduced as the blood pressure normalises, which typically happens in a couple of weeks or so, other things being equal.

Thank you for the link to James J Dinicolantonio's work. A rebuttal at sciencemediacentre.org/expe... Prof Bruce Griffin comments among other things that "What is ‘flawed’ is the author’s interpretation of how LDL subtypes confer risk and respond to saturated fat. This cannot explain the contentious view that the effect of saturated fat on LDL is innocuous. A more balanced review of the overall evidence would reveal that the risks from saturated fat and refined sugars are not mutually exclusive, but co-exist together in our diet."

I could go on with other comments such as "misrepresents the scientific evidence and then goes on to put the blame on sugar." But you can read these for yourself.

====

Your second link on replacing saturated fats with polyunsaturated as a possible heart disease prevention strategy. I think it makes sense to me that CHD events do not necessarily vary sufficiently between saturated and polyunsaturated. Both are fats. Replacing a very bad fat with one that's not quite so bad does not seem to me a good strategy. So I would need to look at this research more closely, but for now I can accept it. And anyway my goal of reducing both types of fat seems a far superior strategy.

====

Your third link - the pig study. If ever there was an example of abuse of animals this study has to be pretty high up! They are fed an abnormal diet, then fed toxins until their heart collapses and otherwise killed. Whatever it seems to support the second link that polyunsaturated fats are not to be consumed to excess. So I can go with that.

If I may say a real problem with such trials is they are reductionist. They reduce food to its constituent parts, test the part and assume any results apply to the whole. The common adage the whole is more than the sum of the parts plays in here very powerfully. I big part of my diet is the strategy of consuming foods in as close to a whole state as possible. So, as an example, fruit consumed whole causes the human body little in the way of sugar spike. If instead you separate out the sugars and consume those then the body is much more likely to undergo a huge sugar spike. The fibre in the original fruit protects the human body from that spike. I can cite example after example where this is the case. There is research to show that even a juice with all the original fibre is still not as good as the original fruit.

===

Fourth link - butter and other lipids. If I can quote from the study, "An

excess of arachidonic acid is harmful (Table 2), and that this is responsible for a range of so-called ‘Western’ diseases, notably cardiovascular diseases while a deficiency of AA (fluid oil group) in cell membranes classically results in leaking, loss of integrity, and membrane rupture." From Table 2 they measured butter is at 47% arachidonic acid and margarine at 17%. Moral of the story? Stay clear of fats if you don't want heart disease. This is exactly what I am talking about. Thank you.

====

Your last link - Saturated fat does not clog the arteries. I found one rebuttal at cebm.net/2017/04/cebm-respo... which argues the evidence paper garners "is considered low-quality evidence" and "fail to highlight contradictory evidence." As such I suspect the research and will ignore it for my purposes.

====

Whatever THANK YOU VERY MUCH for taking the time to pull together supporting research. It is only by getting back to the research and away from anecdotes that we can make better choices.

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Sorry andyswarbs, I do not and will not, agree with the lies and long debunked 'evidence' that saturated fat and cholesterol causes heart disease, obesity, diabetes etc. A diet high in refined carbohydrates and sugars do and these 'evidence' based studies are very dubious in my opinion....Who funded them??!

I do not think a plant based diet is the healthiest diet for humans long term and definitely still do not believe that saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for our health!

Humans have always eaten these animal foods and it is only in the last 40 odd years (Since they told us fat was unhealthy and we need to start consuming more vegetables oil, low fat foods and carbs!) that chronic illnesses have become so prevalent in society. I'm not saying it's ALL just down to people cutting out saturated fat and eating more carbs, sugar and processed foods, but it is a lot to do with it, plus food is grown in poor soil nowadays and most animals are farmed unnaturally and fed a diet they're not supposed to eat. People used to be so much healthier when they ate a more balanced diet with meat, dairy, eggs and some veg, but never vegan, because veganism is new and was relatively unheard of in the 'old days'. You may be lucky and live a long, healthy life on a plant based diet, but many will not and we are going to see a lot of casualties, suffering from nutrient deficiencies in the future.

Fat really has been vilified wrongly for a long time, while the real culprits for the explosion of obesity and chronic illnesses we see today, have been ignored/covered up by the scientific committee, in the name of (Mainly) profits. Thank goodness, this is changing now, finally.

'In 1972, a British scientist sounded the alarm that sugar – and not fat – was the greatest danger to our health. But his findings were ridiculed and his reputation ruined. How did the world’s top nutrition scientists get it so wrong for so long?'

theguardian.com/society/201...

'Low-carb, high-fat (LCHF) diets are trending, but how healthy are they really? Are they for everyone? What does the science say? Professor Tim Noakes, co-author of “The Real Meal Revolution,” is a renowned scientist and researcher from South Africa who is convinced that most people can improve their health by restricting their carbohydrate intake and upping their fats.

He had to defend this dietary position in recent years before the Health Professions Council of South Africa (HPCSA). He came before the council as a result of a tweet where he replied to a breastfeeding mother, suggesting that she wean her baby to a LCHF diet. The trial was focused, in part, on whether he was offering “unconventional and unscientific” advice to the mother.

In today’s episode, you’ll learn about the outcome of the trial, why the LCHF (a/k/a Banting) diet is scorned by some, what health benefits can result from adopting it, what it looks like to eat this way in the day-to-day, and more.'

westonaprice.org/podcast/12...

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Quoting westonprice does you no favours. Elsewhere today on this thread I posted drcarney.com/blog/entry/die...

Please explain that one away. "Funded" by the German government during the second world war taking all the farmed animals away. Watch the video and see how the levels of heart disease plummet and then as soon as the war comes to an end heart disease comes back to "normal" levels.

Just explain that one away.

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Taking away cigarettes may have had the most impact?

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removing ciggies is certainly very very important. Definitely not to be underestimated.

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And I'm sorry, because I know you don't like to hear this, but a plant based diet REALLY isn't the best way to get a fully balanced nutrition with no potential downsides! Many people suffer badly long term on a plant based diet, but I know you won't want to believe that.

So I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

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Please cite research of people suffering on plant based diets. It is quality research that will influence me. I can cite the Adventist study, the China Study as extremely large scale studies. I can quote many other studies as well.

What is your research? And I don't want anecdotes. I know there are unhealthy vegans. I have watched a fair number of youtube videos of people leaving a "vegan" diet for health reasons and I am not impressed by any of them. Today I watched one about someone who just loved their cheeseburgers too much.

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>> why is modern society experiencing an epidemic of osteoporosis

Because people sit in front of the TV all day.

Of all the things you can do to increase your lifespan and general quality of life, not sitting too much and doing some exercise (the one doesn't cancel out the other) is right at the top of the list. This is why fat people insist that you can be fit and fat. It is actually true, although I don't really understand why anyone would WANT to be fat when they have the option not to be.

Diet has a large-ish influence on disease etc., and there's a HUGE interaction between exercise and diet, but the main reason people get degenerative and chronic diseases is that they're sat on their behinds (or recumbent) for 23 out of 24 hours. This is not normal.

It's been known for decades that inactivity has drastic effects on muscles, bones, and insulin sensitivity. A whole lot of modern diseases would disappear if people didn't spend so much time physically inactive.

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agreed.

When someone's health deteriorates badly exercise alone may not be a sufficient route to recovery.

In my own instance I consider my recovery 60% diet, 40% exercise. Without that 60% I simply could not have got to my first yoga class. But now that I go to yoga regularly it helps tame any remaining arthritis by deeply getting into the most damaged joints, ie wrists and elbows, shoulders and hips, ankles and wrists.

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Sorry I forgot to add another reason for osteoporosis is acid. Our society has a lot of acid forming foods in our diet. Meat & dairy, but dairy in particular is very on that list. When the body has an acid imbalance it recovers by drawing calcium from bones to nullify the acid.

I have a personal interest in acidity in the body because the start point of my dietary changes included alkalising the body. Much of what I eat these days focuses on the acid/alkali balance. I light of my own health challenges I feel I would not have recovered had I not paid attention to this detail, albeit nothing to do with osteoporosis.

Looking back I had a friend with IBS, serious IBS. Also a meat eater. He argued that the human stomach has its own acidity and so it does not matter what you eat. My experience and research goes contrary to this. Part of my thinking is the extremely high acid levels in a carnivores stomach whereas a human's gastric juice is only just acidic. It is this weak acidity that allows what you eat to influence the acidity of the rest of your body.

The very high acidity in such animals as tigers leads to extremely fast digestion of animal foods. Humans however find any animal food not totally digested in the stomach and passed through to the intestines , which are totally geared up to fermentation over many hours.

This is why eating meat/dairy late at night before sleeping means it is difficult to get to sleep.

So many strands to the human body. I feel so pleased to be able to experience it first hand and read good research that explains what is going on.

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"This is why eating meat/dairy late at night before sleeping means it is difficult to get to sleep."

This seems rather at odds with the number of people who have milky drinks before bedtime - Ovaltine etc.

I always have about 300g of Greek yogurt about half an hour before bed, without fail, and it gives me a perfect night's sleep, and keeps my body supplied with amino acids for repair while I sleep.

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Yes I know that a lot of people have milky drinks before bed. I used to be one of them. Now, I wonder where that habit came from? Was it somehow naturally most human beings thought, "oh its time for bed, must have a milky drink?" or was it clever marketing by the dairy industry?

Oh yes, so it was. Reading "Milk: A Local and Global History" which takes in the history of milk from 7000 years ago to the present day, by Deborah Valenze published in 2010,

"Thanks to the power of advertising, milk became seen as a precious commodity which provided all manner of benefits to the consumer: it made you sleep well at night, ensured a pretty (milky) complexion, made you muscular, provided for a healthy old age and made strong toddlers." This was a campaign started in the 1930's by the National Milk Promotional Council and then later take up by the Milk Marketing Board especially after the second world war when there was a surplus of milk. What do you do with a surplus? Give it away to kids. One hooked you will have them for life.

---

I am not saying it is impossible to get to sleep on milk. There is a protein in milk which has been shown to aid sleep. What I am saying that to support that a heavy sales marketing pitch over decades has given the concept more credibility than it deserves.

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That is not why I eat yogurt before bed. I do so because I sleep better and wake up with more energy.

And Gainz of course.

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Human gastric juice is not weakly acidic. The pH level averages about 3.5 and on the pH scale 1 is very acidic, 14 is very alkaline. Meat can stay in the stomach for several hours and is acted on by several digestive enzymes there and in the small intestine, which will break it down. What does pass into the large intestines for fermentation are fibrous vegetables and fruit, which are acted on by bacteria.

The acid/alkali balance of the body is tightly controlled and the chemistry is very complicated. Eating a diet high in vegetables is good for you, but you do not need to avoid meat or dairy in order to get the benefits.

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I am not saying the human gastric juice is alkaline. Yes, the PH level of a human ranges 3 to 5. I am comparing the PH level with that of a carnivore which is around 1 and in some cases less.

huntlycentre.com.au/updates... puts it like this

"Herbivorous animals have either a simple stomach, or one with multiple chambers. Humans have a simple stomach, as do carnivores and omnivores. The stomach acidity (pH) is very low in carnivores and omnivores, being less than or equal to pH 1 (with food in the stomach). In contrast, although the stomachs of both herbivores and human are acid, they are much less so, with the pH being in the region of 4-5 (also with food in the stomach). The stomach capacity in herbivores and humans is much less than carnivores and omnivores, namely 30% compared to 60-70% of the total volume of the digestive tract. The carnivore swallows its food whole and relies on the extremely acidic stomach juices to do most of the digestive work. The high acid content in the stomach of carnivores also kills the potentially dangerous bacteria that would otherwise sicken or kill the meat-eater. Humans can cook meat to kill some of the bacteria and make it easier to chew, but it is clear that humans, unlike carnivores, are not designed to easily digest meat."

From the above, can I add that I think it is interesting that a carnivore eats its prey in as large pieces as it can get down its throat, that no digestion goes on in the mouth. When I chew I chew. Every time I have, say raw broccoli, I know that my mouth chews on it many times and saliva gets my bodies digestive system going before the food ever gets to my throat.

Also anyone eating meat will chew it in the mouth. It is dangerous for a human to swallow chunks of meat whole and not chewed since it is likely to get stuck in the throat causing immediate danger to life.

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I guess it all comes down to which explanation you credit with being correct.

Carnivores may have more stomach acid to help with the breakdown of a lot of meat, but humans have quite enough to provide an environment that facilitates meat digestion and to kill harmful bacteria.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

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Yes, humans are able to digest cooked meats. Interesting that 99.99% of meat consumed is flavoured with sugar, salt, pepper, fruit, herbs, spices and then cooked - to make it both palatable and digestible.

I go back to research. I go on about NutritionFacts because it is unbiased. For example as soon research significant numbers of vegans were dying in their 60s rather than living longer lives that was highlighted immediately. That is what I call a quality resource.

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No reason to flavour good quality meat. Discovering that cooking meat made it more digestible just shows how clever and adaptable our omnivorous ancestors were.

NutritionFacts advocates a vegan diet as the only healthy option, that hardly makes it unbiased.

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It is unbiased because it is science led. If the science says vegan is unhealthy then NutritionFacts will change its stance in an instant. Dr Greger is on record with that statement.

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No suggestion that a vegan diet is unhealthy, as long as it’s done right, but it isn’t the only healthy diet on the planet.

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A vegan diet can be very unhealthy. New vegans are at risk of this. Elsewhere (incl facebook) I try to educate them and move them from a processed foods vegan diet towards a whole-food plant based.

Anyone who removes processed foods is heading in the right direction. Anyone who increases fibre in the form of fresh fruit & veg cooked or raw is heading in the right direction.

I consider a whole foods plant based diet with no oils to be very close to the ultimate healthy diet. It is the only diet proven to reverse atherosclerosis. If that was all it was good at then I think everyone should consider it.

What goes in comes out. I look at my wee and poop and consider it a reliable guide to how my body feels. Wee should be clear or nearly clear. Poop should be plentiful and regular. Pooping before bed aids a good nights sleep, so I try to eat at 6pm.

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If you go to the YouTube channel there arr more detailed videos by the athletes.

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Hi Andy,

Thanks - I may have a look. I wrote to the Guernsey dairy, on a previous occasion, to ask about milk, as I was interested and they replied as follows:

"Thank you for your email and I apologise for the delay in replying, I will try and deal with each question separately.

1) The Organic Milk comes from one farm that is certified organic by the Soil Association, this means its farming practices comply with the standards laid down by the Soil Association. The Guernsey Dairy is also certified by this organisation to process, package and despatch organic milk. For further information see their website soilassociation.org

2) The Guernsey Milk Ordinance (1955) does not allow unpasteurised milk to be sold.

3) There is nothing added to our milk, all we do at Guernsey Dairy is pasteurise and skim off the cream from the low fat and skimmed.

I hope this answers some of your questions."

I have to say, that my concerns about skimmed milk were allayed by the fact they don't replace or add anything, they purely pasteurise and skim off the cream. Personally speaking, I tend to enjoy all 3 types of milk (skimmed milk with my tea, semi-skimmed with my coffee and semi-skimmed with porridge on weekdays, and then full-fat Guernsey milk on weekends with my porridge), mainly because I'm trying to keep my saturated fat levels down.

I tend to buy the non-organic milk.

Zest :-)

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However "good" a particular cows milk is it still comes with IGF1 designed to turn baby calves into v large heffers in no time at all.

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Hi Andy,

Do you have an article about this aspect that I could read?

Update since I asked you that: I've just been researching, a little bit, and found this article, which appears quite helpful:

sciencedrivennutrition.com/...

Zest :-)

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Damn it, I was just about to link to that.

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I'm glad you think it's a well-written article too - I thought the research undertaken to produce that looked quite good. :-)

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Its a good site

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drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl... is where I started on the subject - a long time ago when I was a total novice on the subject of nutrition. Well two years ago anyway!

If I can quote one sentence from this robust article, "In the case of dairy foods, I quickly eliminated the “calcium advantage” because Nature packaged her foods so efficiently that developing a disease due to calcium deficiency is nearly impossible on a diet of plant foods (See last month’s newsletter—February 2007)."

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IGF1 is a protein, and as such will be quickly chopped apart into amino acids in your stomach.

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If you can’t tolerate cow’s milk, then don’t drink it.

It’s been a food source for around 7 to 8 thousand years, possibly developing about the same time as agriculture. The ability of adults to digest milk (lactase persistence) gave them access to extra protein and nutrients when plants would have been in short supply. It may well have given people an evolutionary advantage.

It may be implicated in the worsening of some health conditions, but that doesn’t make it bad for everyone else.

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An interesting aside is to ask why cow's milk instead of dog milk or pig milk or beaver milk or many other animals. What makes cow's milk specially good for humans, assuming that is true. And who decides cow's milk is best.

My answer is because historically it is easy for dairy farmers to make money from, rather than any research saying it is best.

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Well you can buy sheep's milk and goat's milk. Milking a beaver is somewhat m

ore laborious and has lower yoeld. the number of beavers you would need to milk to have a cup of tea probably renders that idea non viab;e.

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Not viable... Economically. My point exactly. Nothing to do with health, just profit.

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And absolutely impossible with breadstick/celery fingers. You and a beaver would not survive the winter Rignold.

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au contraire. I do very well for beaver in winter. Year round, in fact.

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😂

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You can get milk from many other animals, there’s nothing particularly special about cow’s milk, but it appears to have been an easy animal to domesticate.

Any ruminant, with large graspable teats, that could convert high fibre, low nutrient pasture to a food source has been milked by humans. Yaks, water buffalo, camels, reindeer, sheep and goats all provide milk in different countries around the world.

As for farmers making money out of cow’s milk..... try talking to any dairy farmer in the UK and you will find that many are struggling to stay in business. You may think that this is a good thing, but, if smaller scale dairy producing herds disappear, we will be left with vast factory farms producing milk on an industrial basis with very questionable treatment of animals. I would rather campaign to make people aware of this danger, rather than the possibility that drinking milk doesn’t suit everyone.

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The last thing I want is for farmers to go out of business. My ideal is they transition to non-dairy & non-animal food sources. Smaller scale farms are going to be able to transition sooner and more easily than large scale factory farms. Note for some farms this does not necessarily mean zero animals, just not breeding animals specifically for the human food chain. For example they might become animal sanctuaries, as some already have done and as such attract visitors as a business.

Campaigning about the worst aspects of factory farming has a lot to commend it, imo. It follows part of the vegan statement about what veganism is, "to do the best you can." Steady transitioning is the most sustainable model.

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Perhaps transitioning may be possible for some, but is unlikely to be economically viable for all. If 75% of the UK population don’t even eat ‘five a day’, they are unlikely to be buying more vegetables.

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The cynic in me agrees. However right now largely they are not informed and so cannot take an informed choice. Right now all they hear are "milk is good for you" messages.

But it only takes one person in a family for chinks to emerge. Initially they are painful chinks, sometimes very painful ones. A parent reacting to a son/daughter drinking non-cows milk might possibly say "how dare you say milk is bad for you when I have fed it to you all your life. And we're okay."

A lifetime of a lifestyle is not undone in a day. Probably a more elderly generation will be hard to change. But many young consumers are profoundly connected via social media.

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Here, here Penel, I totally agree with you!!!!

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Because they eat grass (Or should!) and turn that grass into healthy milk full of fat soluble vitamins and cancer fighting CLA. What do dogs and pigs eat??? I know I wouldn't want to drink any milk from animals who would eat almost ANYTHING they find!!! :O

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It's partly because cow's milk naturally separates, which means you can make cream (and certain types of cheese) with it. Most other animals produce milk which is 'naturally homogenized' - the fat remains in suspension and can't easily be separated out.

Also, cows are pretty easy to keep and milk compared to (say) beavers, as per Rignold's reply. So yes, it is basically an economic choice - but what's wrong with that?

Water buffalo are also a popular choice. Goats are a pain - they're virtually impossible to confine.

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there lots of people who have the same illnesses that dont drink cows milk and dont eat meat with people who do..

i thought this video a bit silly..and of no help to any one.

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The video is just proves that some vegans are at the top of their physical game compared with non vegans. That's all it does.

That's why it is crucial to get unbiased peer reviewed research. Because that's the only way we can see if it applies to us.

Unfortunately bias is endemic in most nutritional research. Often the bias is subtle or hidden.

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This video proves that some athletes do not drink milk. In fact only one of them was a gold medalist so technically they have mainly been near the top of their game compared to non vegans. That's all it does.

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I've seen many videos about the hormones and harmful effects from cows' milk. I've swapped it for non-milk alternatives and I'm doing fine so far. When societies switch to eating more animals and fat products they seem to get sicker e.g. more cancer, more MS, more diabetes, etc.

Seeing cows running after the calves being taken away, hearing cows crying for their lost calves, seeing a cow collapse when she can't produce any more milk, seeing the bleeding udders because cows are forced to produce milk for years on end...I can't drink it anymore after watching all that.

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this is about animal cruelty your talking about.

i think this is a healthy eating forum and cows milk..as has already been said has been giving man life for thousands of years...and its proven to be a very good healthy food.

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I assume it's been giving life to women too :)

But the fact that people have been drinking it a long time doesn't prove it's good. It's only recently that we've had the science to start studying what it's effects actually are, and it looks like they are not as good as had been claimed.

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Yes this is a healthy eating forum and the two are linked. It cannot be healthy to be eating animal products that in the process have had so much cruelty and suffering inflicted on them. Cows Milk is not a healthy drink. You need to look into this. Humans do not need milk after the stage of weening or you would have fully grown humans still being breast fed. If you think adults need milk surely you would put the two together and realise you would need human milk not milk from a great big cow? Do you still think you should be suckling milk as an adult human being? We have been accustomised to advertising over the years to think it is ok and it isn’t.

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It is very tough bringing the debate away from cruelty. I still have not completely watching earthlings. 3/4 the way through is as far as I go, time and time again.

But this forum is a health forum and the more we can keep that central to debate the better.

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The way an animal has lived, what is has been fed and how and why it has died are relevant to the ‘health’ benefits of that animals produce surely?

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Spot on x

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hi andyswarbs , i dont see this video as been proff of anything really 🤔

i gave up cows milk and got my life back !! and i gave up cows milk and i can now breath again!! and i never had cows milk and am never going too!! and the other ones on there cant be taken seriously when they cant prove a word of it.

sorry not buying this one 😤

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Is it the cows milk, or cows milk reacting with another foodstuff. Nothing is eaten/drunk in isolation, so how can a definitive answer be given. (I cannot mix onions and mushrooms, but can eat separately)

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By doing research, good research is how you find connections. Pay attention to the research that is unbiased and peer reviewed. The research is out there. You just need to look. My favourite source is nutritionfacts.org/

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unbiased, lol. Yes, retain an open mind, no doubt?

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Do you actually know how much money the meat and dairy industry spends on research, adverts supporting youtube channels, newpapers, tv shows, websites, funding university departments, funding bloggers and journalists? Not to mention the way governments heavily fund animal agriculture. For instance check out the USA's checkoff program. Not to mention the USDA being the US government mouthpiece for meat & dairy.

When you can come back with the answer ZERO then I will listen.

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I’m no athlete but I gave up meat and dairy 2 years ago and have more energy than when I was a teenager. My skin is very clear and I don’t get the digestion problems I used to get. I swopped to almond/oat milk and Would never go back to drinking cows milk.

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Not everything affects everyone, my grandparents were dairy farmers, and had lots of dairy, and lived unaffected to a ripe old age. But not this rubbish homogenised stuff.

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And pasteurised, which destroys most of the enzymes and goodness in milk, rendering it basically dead and highly allergenic to most people!

I bet your grandparents drank it straight from the cow, Sadmia? :)

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I certainly agree about modern dairy farming methods. Your grandparents probably also worked very physically day in day out without time to sit around computers!

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The sad thing about "modern" dairy methods is that they're not even profitable. Most dairy farmers are losing money. I'm pretty sure this could be fixed simply by instituting proper welfare standards for animals and banning CAFOs. Milk prices would increase by 50%, people would stop buying it in 4L jugs (and throwing half of it away) and farmers would be able to earn a decent living again.

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They thought my crohns disease in my 20s was triggered by dairy, but it wasn't. I think it was the sea water I swallowed trying to learn to swim. *see today's news, maybe they've just caught up.

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Again, I will say that a lot of the problems with milk nowadays comes from the fact that it is pasteurised, homogenised and mainly from A1 cows, who are fed a lot of grain and given antibiotics routinely, which gets into the milk.

Raw, unhomogenised, A2 (From mainly Goats, Guernsey cows and to a lesser extent Jersey cows) milk is the healthiest milk you can get and most people (Though not everyone) can tolerate (And do well on) this milk.

Pasteurized vs. Raw Milk: Which One Is Healthier for You & Your Family?https://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/raw-milk-vs-pasteurized-milk/

realmilk.com/health/raw-mil...

A1 vs A2 Milk:

healthline.com/nutrition/a1...

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Dr Milton Mills, who is featured in support of these olympians avoiding milk has made a comprehensive response about the health challenges of milk.

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it might be better if you put this video on a new post so more people will see it.. but anyway, i did watch most of it and it was interesting.

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Cheers Hidden, I considered that. This thread has been pushed very far. But the two were related so I included it purely for completeness.

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I found that video really interesting, andyswarbs - thanks for posting it. I haven't read the other article you posted yet, but I hope to do so on Monday when I have a bit more time.

Zest :-)

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