With Supplements, ADT in Prostate Cancer of Little Threat to Bone Density
— Study suggests calcium/vitamin D alone sufficient for long-duration therapy - by Mike Bassett, Staff Writer, MedPage Today June 3, 2021
I'm not at all sure the ADT patient community here at HU would agree with the results of this study. What continues to astonish me is the complete lack of knowledge by the SOC medical community of the importance of magnesium, boron, and Vitamin K2 to bone health. Equally important, there is never any mention in such studies of the possible detrimental effect of calcium supplementation (without the metabolic support of these vitamins and minerals) since the Ca may well end up deposited in the arteries, joints, and kidneys (as stones) - and not in the bones, as intended!
The research is clear and ubiquitous, so why the heck are docs still hawking the benefits of Ca + D3 alone, esp. since there have been numerous studies indicating none-to-minimal benefits for bone health from those supplements by themselves. Well, take a look at the source of the funding for this study and you might get a clue:
Financial Support/Funding Statement: PCS V trial was funded by an operating grant from Sanofi-Canada. The current study did not receive any specific grant from funding agencies in the public, commercial, or not-for-profit sectors.
Think: Eligard, Jevtana, & Taxotere. Sort of the research result you (Sanofi-Canada) would hope for, if you sell multiple ADT drugs, but none for osteoporosis; i.e., keep taking those ADT drugs and a small dose of Ca + D3 will be all you need for your bone health. The American Urology Association should be embarrassed to have printed this privately-funded research in their Journal.
The MedPage Today article is here:
With Supplements, ADT in Prostate Cancer of Little Threat to Bone Density
— Study suggests calcium/vitamin D alone sufficient for long-duration therapy - by Mike Bassett, Staff Writer, MedPage Today June 3, 2021
The Clinical Significance of Bone Mineral Density Changes Following Long-Term Androgen Deprivation Therapy in Localized Prostate Cancer Patients - Journal of UrologyAdult Urology - Jun 2021
Ugh. Thanks Cujoe! Yeah, that’s awful. I’ll stick w ca + d3 as a foundation w adt. But, for me(yes, sample size of 1), all I know is my bone density continued to decline for two years rapidly w only ca + d3 but the addition of alendronate over a year ago finally had benefit of density maintenance and even gain in my back. ✌️ DougNOLA
Sartor is a Master Oncologist, so you are in good hands. Just be aware of the risk associated with the long-term use (4 - 5 years) of bisphosphonates, including alendronate (Fosamax). My late sister was a victim of of this because her oncologist did not give her the recommended treatment vacation at 5 years. She ended up with titanium rods in both femurs.
I'm not at all sure what the risk is for men, but it is something to at least be aware of. Here is a article describing the issue:
Hey, Master HU research associate and the one who turned me on to all the bone health info posted above . . . Thanks more than I can say for opening my eyes to a more complete picture of bone metabolism and health. Take pride in the knowledge that this student has spread the message far and wide, esp. with older women who are the primary target for osteo pharma. Equally important for me personally has been your introduction to nattokinase and serrapeptase for the additional benefits they provide for both bone health and cancer.
I trust you and Patrick had another engaging lunch while I was meeting with my CLL oncologist last Tuesday. Someday we will meet and break bread to our long lives and good health.
I would have been even less than a fly on the wall had I made it for the lunch. BTW, when I saw this news report from your area this AM, I thought it might be you & Patrick dressed up in bear outfits and out having a little fun with the nature-loving tourists?
Guess/you are settled back in your old abode by now and the residential part of your life has returned to near normal. Also hope Mary is continuing to improve in that crisp mountain air.
Like you, I believe there is more to bone health than Ca and Vitamin D3. I used the LE Bone Bone Restore with K2, magnesium, manganese, silicon, zinc, and boron along with Ca and Vitamin D3. On vacation, I cut back and hope to have a bone densitometry done soon...
Are you saying that taking D3 / K2 / Boron and magnesium is better than taking bone density drugs like Fosamax ? I have been taking only D3 / K2 / Boron and magnesium for bones for 3 plus years. I read Patrick's post on melatonin -- how much are you taking ? -- I just upped mine to 30 mg nightly -- is that too much?
I'll only speak for myself, but in almost all cases I favor natural substances over lab-synthesized pharma products. The only supplement in your combination for which there might be a concern is Vit K for those taking blood thinners. However, it is the K1 component of Vitamin K that is the main player in the coagulant characteristic of Vit K. To alleviate most of that concern, there are lots of Vit K2 supplements that eliminate K1 and even some that include the enzyme nattokinase. Here is a Healthline article that explains the differences between K1 & K2:
Pharma products, like fosamax, make the bones stronger but also make them more brittle. It shuts down the natural process that heals tiny hairline cracks and over time can make long-term users subject to "atypical bone fractures", usually occurring in the femur. I know about that first hand, as my late older sister had titanium rods put in each femur due to her oncologist leaving her on fosamax for longer than the recommended 5 years. As a result, she had to deal with bone pain in both legs for the rest of the life. Additionally, the potential side effects of drugs like fosamax are not insignificant:
I owe much to Nalakrats for first pointing out the importance of the D3, K2, Mg, & boron combo to bone health. (Few people on traditional American diets get enough Mg, Boron, & K2 and most are also deficient in D3.) What still amazes me is how few people know of the need for these additional minerals and vitamins for directing the Ca to the bones. Absent these supports for bone health, Ca is just running around looking for somewhere else to go - and cause problems; i.e., arteries, joints, kidneys, etc. It seems most MDs prescribing Ca + D3 for bone health are completely illiterate on the subject - and their patients are suffering the consequences. The problem I find in trying to get this information out to family and friends is that a large a majority of people over age 60 seem to already be on blood thinners or bone strengthening meds. And getting people to stop taking a med prescribed by their all-knowing doctors is like asking them to change their political party affiliation.
Best of luck to you, regardless of what route you take to improve your bone health. One size never fits all. Be Safe, Stay Well, and May Your Bones be Forever Strong. Ciao - K9
I'm not on any blood thinners but just started taking Ibresartan that dilates blood vessels and may cause bleeding. I have hemorrhoids that have been bleeding since starting B/P medicine -- hopefully that is all that the bleeding is. I take black seed oil / curcumin / vit. E fish oil - I think they can cause some bleeding also.
If you check, George, you will find that BSO, curcumin, and Fish Oil all act to some degree as blood thinners. Also, with PCa, you might consider switching to a plant source for your Vitamin E. (whose use at all, BTW, is quite controversial for PCa.) I can't speak to the ibresartan, but would suggest that you work hard on your diet and lifestyle to get off it ASAP. Here is Mayo's advice on how to do that:
I take a lot of supplements, but try to take a source food along with them when that is an option - to capture the whole food synergies that might be key to activating their beneficial effects. As you already know, the world of diet & lifestyle and complimentary medicine is a maze of conflicting information and opinions. Pays to do very thorough research on anything you are taking and become knowledgeable about effective dosing routines, best times to take, with or without food, contraindications for combinations etc. A certified naturopathic doctor can provide guidance, if you do not have the time or feel comfortable doing the necessary research to assure best outcomes.
Don't be discouraged, but don't go shooting blind with a random selection of supplements either. In all cases, Be Safe & Stay Well - Paz K9
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