I’ve been AWOL on here since my last failed Icsi cycle (number 3). I think I’ve been taking some time to “forget” about IVF - as much as we ever do……
Anyway, two days ago I had my NHS ‘feedback’ appointment - we had two NHS ICSI cycles . I was APPALLED by the attitude and response of the (male) doctor I had the meeting with.
It was an only meeting and to say it lasted four minutes would be generous . As you can imagine , I was dreading the appointment - as we all do, but I did hope to gain some formative feedback moving forward. While I appreciate we have not had ‘great’ results by any stretch, I did not anticipate the conversation that followed . It, in a nutshell went like this :
“Hello , I am doctor x. I see you have had two NHS ICSi cycles with us and double embryo transfers each time”
“Yes that’s right”
“Each time you have been a poor responder and have had poor fertilisation rates due to poor sperm”
“Yea that’s right- I hope was hoping you may be able to advise what to do next”
“Adopt. Some people consider doner eggs but then it is not your biological child”
“Oh right. So what would you do if you were me. Would you give up?”
“Likely. Or adopt.”
Literally. That was how it went . I was crushed . I appreciate the need for some honestly and I also appreciate this his day job ..,… BUT…..
Having been around the block on these forums I know that three rounds isn’t much in the grand scheme of iVF . I also was considering doner eggs …. If it needed to come to that…. But I feel he has taken any positivity from that option now too…,
Am I being too sensitive ? Should I give up? Has anyone else been told this after three Rounds? While we haven’t had great numbers we have always made it to transfer with embryos x
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Oh my goodness I'm sorry to hear that your debrief went this way. The way it was handled is completely out of order and to be honest it sounds like this doctor just wanted to rush through this appointment without care or explanation.
I had 3 fresh rounds at my previous clinic and one frozen. They at no point told me to give up and adopt. After complications from my frozen round they did for the first time mention donor eggs but with empathy and said they would support me in how I wanted to proceed. I totally understand why this would make you feel completely s****y and in turmoil about what to do next. I am wondering if you could request a debrief with a different doctor. I certainly would be getting a second opinion. I don't think 3 rounds is much personally, I am on my fourth / fifth round due to embryo banking and also had the frozen round.
I was so stumped I didn’t even cry 🙄. He was so so cold . I know people go for wayyyy more rounds than three and to a certain extent it is a numbers game so o NEVER anticipated it going like that to be honest.
I didn’t think we “were out” but now I’m beginning to think maybe I just give up.
Of course you wouldn't anticipate this and of course it is completely deflating. What was a fleeting conversation of no consequence to him has significant consequences for you, I get it. I think you should seek guidance from a different clinic who have a personable approach. Don't let this one doctor, who didn't even explain anything, bring you down 💪xx
Thank you. You’re right/ I know this …. It’s just hard every time we take another blow isn’t it .
I think it’s especially hard as we have “unexplained” poor response to meds and even though our initial problem was my husbands sperm- the focus seems to be on the low (ish) egg count . Even though the fertilisation seems to be more of problem the doctor seems to focus only on the number of eggs 🤷🏼♀️. I have never felt more confused x
I haven’t had any support from the NHS, they didn’t give me funding because they considered I was unlikely to be successful with the one cycle they would offer (endometriosis, low AMH, male factor issues…). Well, I was successful with the one egg collection in my second transfer. What I’m trying to say is, they don’t have all the answers. Don’t let them bring you down. I really don’t think that you can judge your chances with two transfers. You learn more with each cycle. Perhaps you can have an appointment with your clinic or transfer all your notes to another clinic with high success rates? Look after yourself and all the best!
Thank you. Our first round was private and tbh I didn’t feel they gave much support or answers either. I am in talks with an abroad clinic who seem much more positive and IWas hopeful for this as our next step until he crushed my hopes ….. xx
You need to feel comfortable with the support your clinic provides you (we pay them a lot of money!), so I’m glad you are talking to others that give you more attention and information. I can understand your frustration though as my NHS experience was full of it. It’s not easy, but I hope you can soon move past that to reduce your stress and use your energy on planning next steps instead. Xxx
Yes. Very slow process despite me having done some tests privately already and having all the info. They then had me going back and forth in between consultant and person that could do the referral to request funding, then more blood tests, then sorry we cannot help as we don’t think you’ll be successful. I wasted a whole year on this and they wouldn’t approve a single cycle… Ridiculous postcode lottery system and poorly defined criteria.
Even though a different situation - the same negative, disinterested response . I’m all for the the NHS, don’t get me wrong. However, the IVF clinics seem like a business and I don’t feel they actually care or push for success. I’m sorry you had a similar response and experience . Did you ignore this “advice” and keep going? X
Same. I have received great care on the NHS, just not on this topic. If I suspect I’m not receiving enough support, I have gone private and they have provided great care too. Good luck!
Oh my god, who is this guy? He sounds like an idiot! I’m so sorry that insensitivity and dismissal was your experience when his whole job in that moment should have been to support and inform you.
Please don’t let him make you feel there’s nothing more you can do. I can guarantee if you went to a competent clinic they’d have all sorts of suggestions for further testing/different treatment approaches. I think it really is worth pushing your clinic for a second opinion, or getting a private consultation if that’s an option financially.
Also, if it makes you feel any better, our consultant at our first clinic basically wrote us off before we’d even started treatment. He actually said the words “Look, it’s not all over yet BUT it’s not looking like you’ll have success” after we got my husband’s results. Then, we went to our current clinic and they were like “Oh don’t worry, we can totally work with these results”. It made me realise clinics and consultants have such different attitudes and approaches.
Really? That is hopeful. Especially as you have had a success early on. I feel like it’s a numbers game almost - hence I was shocked he wrote us off so quickly. The clinic I am speaking to abroad seems much more positive . Xx
Yes, we were so so distressed. We thought it would never work. Then our new clinic really renewed our hope. My consultant said she’d had success with far worse results.
I’m glad your new clinic is more positive. There’s so much you can try still xxx
God he sounds like an absolute asshole. There is no need to be that brutal, I’m so sorry you had to experience that! Have you always done the same protocol? Have you had a second opinion from another clinic?
I had three pretty rubbish rounds with one clinic, poor fertilisation, early double transfers and was pretty convinced it was game over for us. We decided to move clinics and try one last time and had very different results xx
Great news you’ve had different results - we seen a similar position to you. Three rounds , poor fertilisation . Can I ask what was changed in your recent round ? Xx
We changed clinics which was the biggest change for us. I definitely don’t think all clinics are created equal, we had such a difference experience at our new clinic, much more personal and felt everything was explained much more clearly. They changed us from a long to a short protocol with a completely different mix of stims (previously had been on Gonal F, this time was on Bemfola and menopur). Our fertilisation rate had previously been around 40% and went to 90% xx
What an absolute @£&e!! 🤬 the only person who should give up is him… at his job! I would put in a complaint and ask to speak to someone else who will lay out your options and chances clearly without a dismissive ‘opinion’. ‘But then it wouldn’t be your biological child’ honestly what a stupid thing to say! As if you don’t know that and wouldn’t factor that in to an option. Why is he pushing adoption if he is so bothered about that aspect! If you didn’t have an issue conceiving you wouldn’t be there, or does he only want ‘easy’ cases!
If you are moving to private funded I would just move clinics tbh but defo put in the complaint 😡
Sending you hugs of support that should NEVER have happened to you 😞🤗 xxx
Thank you. He was a prick. Just so brutally cold .
I was absolutely offended at the DE comment - he undermined the whole idea of it tbh which was not only rude but I also felt unethical.
We will be moving for another private round ….. the NHS clinic we used also do private but he told me that he wouldn’t bother if he was me so (not that there was any chance) so we wouldn’t use them for our private round anyway.
I think I will complain. Even if just to help stop him speaking to others in the same way xxx
Couldn’t agree more with Twiglet. How awful, he clearly shouldn’t be in that job. Defo complain. He should not have said those things to you or in the way he did. It is not his choice/none of his business if you use a donor egg or not. It is a hard enough decision without him giving his personal negative comments about it. If he was going through what you are, would he still jump to ‘adopt’ so quickly? Also so disrespectful about adoption, a very difficult thing to decide on and go through, he’s making it sound like it’s nothing and your only option - which it is NOT. Brush him aside, your gut is telling you there’s lots more you can try and it’s right. Just not with that idiot. Lots of love and hugs to you xx.
I’m shocked by your experience although I did a similar one! I wonder if it’s the same person! He was cold and uncaring and dismissive during consultations and even took a phone call during the embryo transfer. To be honest, I would make a complaint, he needs to know that that is a completely unacceptable way to deal with a sensitive situation. The same information could have been given but in a sensitive and empathetic way. I would, if it is an option, look into using a private clinic. I had my first round on the NHS and found it generic and just a ‘that’s what we do for everyone’ attitude. Private clinic are much more likely to use more individually tailored cycles.
I would also look into DE. That is the path I had to choose after ever diminishing results with my own eggs. Yes they might not share the exact same DNA but you do influence which genes are switched on (epi-genetics) and it’s your blood and body which feeds and grows the baby. You give birth to them so not say they aren’t yours is completely Insulting. It’s not a decision which anyone takes lightly, nor is it any one’s first choice.
Ironically the doctor I was talking about also did private work for my clinic and I couldn’t believe it when I had him for my review meeting after a miscarriage. He was nice as pie then!, 🙄 I think look for recommendations of clinic near you and take it from there, but also I think making a complaint is valid. Hopefully it would mean no one else would have to have such a horrible experience! Xxx
Thank you for such a kind reply. We had been considering DE and I was absolutely fine with the idea (as you’d said given the fact I would carry the baby etc) and the comment he made totally undermined that option for me . I was honestly shocked .
We had one private round (our first) and I think we will now go back down the route again. Possibly even abroad I think . X
Let me know if you want any recommendations. I used a clinic in Spain and I’m sure there will be lots of other suggestions from other people who’ve had good experiences abroad. I can pm you so let me know. Xxx
I’m so sorry you had to be in that situation! I would complain about the doctor and ask for another one if I were you. And disregard everything he said. Also he is wrong about DE: it would be your biological child because you would carry the child and give birth. Just not sharing the same genes. That doc knows nothing!
His argument for adoption is contradictory - adopted children won’t be biologically yours either 🤦♀️ It’s a personal choice. The fact that he didn’t expand much on his points and how brief he was suggests he couldn’t be bothered or was behind schedule! I would have been shocked also.
I had a similar experience in a private clinic in London after I told them to stop my own cycle as it wasn’t going anywhere. The female doctor turned nasty after she tried to convince me to continue and said “what do you expect at your age and the sperm quality?” I told her it was a good thing I stopped then and she should have mentioned this at the start of the cycle as I wouldn’t have bothered. I didn’t go back and I was amazed how fast my last invoice came (the very next morning 😂).
I think some people forget how sensitive IVF is and how important feedback is, we hang on their words and take it for gospel. Get a second opinion, you may have to go private or do you have more rounds available on NHS, request a different doctor … good luck 🌺💖 xx
That was our two NHS rounds . We have done one private already (our first) and I had assumed that we would automatically ‘be told’ to try again privately…… but according to him I shouldn’t bother . 😂- his response is comical really. I had gone into that meeting thinking that in the grand scheme of IVF three rounds wasn’t much - especially as every round we have had embryos and made it to transfer …… never in a million years was I expecting to be told to “give up” so early on. 💁🏼♀️.
That doesn’t seem professional at all! And there are much better ways to break news. Good grief. It’s not for him to say not to try donor eggs because it’s not yours - lots of people are really happy having gone down this route but maybe he’s thinking it would have the same issues as the sperm quality is poor. Have you taken natural measures to try and improve eggs and sperm? If you want to go ahead and try for another round perhaps you should try all sorts - acupuncture, healthy eating cutting out caffeine and your partner would need to increase testosterone so exercise and you’d both need supplements - again folic acid should be naturally occurring rather than synthetic as in the most popular brands. And maybe you should try another clinic? I assume you’ve had your lot on the NHS so now you’d have to go private anyway. Worth seeking a second opinion I think.
Yes. You’re right . I am quite on the ball with all this anyway- I exercise daily and live a healthy lifestyle but I have said to my partner this time he needs to up his game . I’m going out this weekend to get him supplements and I have told him he needs to try and get a bit fitter . Hoping this may help us in the next round 🤞🏼
Yes I got a bit frustrated with mine (but that was well after the egg collection so to be fair he didn’t have to be doing everything then) - to his credit the doc told him to take supplements, and he started running. He increased his sperm count (although something else went down l) and in hindsight now I’d have made him move to caffeine free coke. But luckily on egg collection day his sperm was good - and we didn’t know about the 3 month thing so maybe it was the end of his exercise regime and was in better shape. Who knows really 🤷🏻♀️
The more I think about it , the more I think I should complain. Even though it won’t help me so to speak- it may stop him from speaking in this way to another woman . X
I 100% agree with little peax ! Iv seen a couple of ladies in this forum on their 6th round so don’t beat ur self up. I also know someone who’s on their 5th round too! Goodluck! Keep going and don’t give up xxx
Hey, it sounds like you got a review with a crappy doctor who was hopefully on a really bad day, otherwise it sounds to me like he’s in the wrong job! First thing I would do is phone to complain and say you are not happy and ask for another appointment with a different doctor…I have done this a number of times and have always felt much better after speaking to someone else.
In terms on the treatment you have already had…you have had a far better response than me and I was never told to give up! I did a first round of ICSI privately while I waiting on a NHS place and got 3 eggs, none of which were usable. I then did 3 rounds of ICSI on the NHS round 1 got 5 eggs of which one was usable and transferred on day 5 but I had a missed miscarriage at 7 weeks, round 2 only got 2 eggs and none usable and round 3 got 4 eggs of which 2 were transferred on day 3, 1 stuck and I am currently 30 weeks pregnant! I looked into donor egg treatment before our last NHS round as I can quite honestly say I thought it had no chance of working and I wanted something positive to be able to move on to when it failed. A week into our last round of stims one of the consultants called and said my follicles hadn’t grown as they’d have hoped and my oestrogen level had actually dropped rather than increased and he was concerned my body was no longer responding to the drugs. He gave me the option of having a retrieval early in the hope of getting 1 egg or continuing on the basis that if things didn’t improve the cycle would be cancelled. My husband and I chatted about it and decided to keep going and boy are we glad we did. My AMH is very low and I have poly cystic ovaries and my husband’s sperm has low sperm numbers and mobility, but even with all that it has worked so my advise would be seek a second opinion and don’t give up yet. Good luck!
What a lovely success story. I am so happy it worked for you- especially against the odds 🧡. Your story is exactly what I mean when I say I never went into that meeting expecting that conversation. I have read SO many stories like yours where people have success against the odds and after a huge number of rounds …… I just assumed we would keep going. I think we will do one more “fresh” cycle and following that consider DE. Going into the fresh I will feel like you did I think , there is no way it will work BUT I will try….. maybe it will be my time . ❤️
Thank you. I am so pleased I can bring you a little hope. It is such a shitty process without insensitive doctors making it worse! I hope things work out for you, whichever route you end up going. Xx
This actually makes me so angry 😠 so sorry you had to experience this. My GP told me to THINK about adoption after my second transfer ended in chemical. I felt this was too harsh as I hadn't had the best chance to start with, mainly lack of progesterone. I'm now pregnant ❤️💫 if i gave up too soon ovbs I wouldn't be in this position now. Do what feels right for you. I personally think it's too soon. With every failed round, you can learn from it and tweak things for next time. Give yourself the best chance. Dr's are great most of the time, but a small percentage let the rest down. Please take no notice. Awful unprofessional advice ❤️💫❤️
Hello,I'm so sorry you have been through this, it is shocking! Definitely make a complaint and insist on an appointment with another doctor. And a longer appointment, mine have always been 1hr, NHS and private.
In terms of treatment, there are options and things to consider and try. I will just tell you my experience because it might give you some options to consider with your (new) Dr. You are getting embryos to transfer so that is good.
We are in the middle of our 3rd fresh cycle. We have severe male factor and decided to go down the donor sperm route. We were offered counselling while considering donor. With our first 2 cycles we had poor fertilisation rate which the Dr thinks is down to me having low amh for my age and the eggs not being mature. Like you we always made it to transfer (1st cycle 3dt ectopic pregnancy, 2nd cycle 5dt 2 'slow developers' transferred and BFN). We switched Drs for our 3rd cycle to get a fresh view point. This Dr said to us it is still worth a go and this time we would completely change the protocol to see if I respond better. He also asked me to consider how many more times I could put myself through this and we had a discussion about donor eggs and donor embryos. I found this helpful and we have decided we will do 1 or 2 more cycles and if it doesn't work then consider donor eggs/embryos. I have had my egg collection for our 3rd cycle and so far we have had a much better fertilisation rate so I am putting it down to the switch in protocol. I haven't had my transfer yet. However, I do recommend changing things if you have had two cycles and it hasn't worked. The nurses also tweaked things during my stimulation phase - e.g. 'we usually up your meds after day 6 scan but sometimes it can be detrimental to your eggs so we won't do it this time'. Definitely ask what things they can change if you decided to go for another round.
I hope that is helpful and wish you the best on your journey. xx
Thank you for this . And I am pleased you are having better success this time 🤞🏼. Like you, with poor sperm, we have always had low fertilisation rates but we have always had some embryos so I guess that’s a good sign. I had pretty much accepted that maybe DE would be our next option to try and improve numbers / quality but a clinic I have just spoken to (like yours) has said maybe we try one more with my own eggs then move to DE. At least they haven’t written me off like the NHS doctor !
I felt more disheartened I think as even tho I’m not a great responder and get a small number of eggs , our initial reason for ICSI was the poor sperm factor so I did feel a bit sad that this doctor was basically neglecting that fact and focusing on the lower egg numbers . This new clinic I am speaking with made a good point that even if I had 25 eggs, we would have low fertilisation numbers due to the sperm anyway….. which is what I thought ….. so giving up on my
I’m so sorry that you had to listen to that inconsiderate piece of shit!!! When I rant about the NHS as you may see from my replies I don’t do it lightheartedly. It is no longer what it used to be for previous generations. There is no care factor. Iv had scans of misdiagnosis, even with my husbands very severe tetrozoospermia 100% abnormal morphology I am so glad he didn’t have to go through surgery for embolization. I would honestly say if you are able to travel go abroad, what the uk found a big deal in my case other drs are well experienced and know exactly protocol ect. In the NHS it is pretty much same protocol new person there is very little passion to help create those little miracles that we all do desperately want.
Oh gosh i am so so sorry. I hate how blunt and insensitive these doctors and nurses can sometimes be. Its cruel enough to be on this journey let alone have someone tell you that. I hope you can find a private clinic that can better provide care and basic service with empathy. Xxx
Unfortunately this journey seems to have more downs than positives. So sorry to hear that your treatment was handled with complete insensitivity and a lack of care. I was told after 3 rounds the likelihood of success with my eggs was 5%. However this was delivered with kindness and I appreciated the honesty. I was suggested to move to donor eggs. Move to a better clinic, find somewhere you feel treated as an individual.
I would also lodge a complaint, as hopefully it will prevent others from having this same experience.
Well, this was an odd and rude conversation. Why would he suggest donor eggs while saying fertilization is low due to poor sperm quality. I wouldn't give up if I were you. You still have some years left.
Did you do DNA fragmentation test? Before you go donor egg route, make sure it's not donor sperm that's needed. Btw....I did have my old doctor telling me to give up after 2nd failed IVF due to my low egg reserve and age. Actually, all 3 fertility doctors that I have seen suggested donor eggs. I did go that route but got pregnant naturally right before the donor egg embryo transfer. Get as many tests done as possible and go from there.
This is absolutely appalling please complain! That doctor has a duty of care for the entirely of your well being, that's such an awful response from them. They should not be passing judgment on donor eggs, they should be presenting the options and if that's with pros and cons that's ok but without opinion.So sorry to hear you had that experience x
Sorry you had this experience. I would say complain. It isn't for an IVF clinic to tell you to adopt. You are seeing him for IVF advice not adoption advice. 😔 I am actually adopted myself and considering it ourselves. But that's our decision not yours and your partners. I am about to go into 3rd Round on NHS but it is at a private clinic. It sounds like everyone gets such varied treatment and also some private places I have read about sound absolutely awful. I also think it is hard to judge yourself too. But it's whether you have the energy to do the complaint to as it is exhausting 😩
what the hell?! I don't even know way to say to that. That certainly doesn't have to be your next move by any means. My thoughts are that whilst you haven't got your baby, it's about seeing how much money you can put in and how much you are able to r willing to use and also how much you can take mentally/emotionally before seeing what your next step is everytime. Don't let the doctor push you towards something that you might not be ready for/considering yet. He didn't even give you any recommendations! I'd be tempted to ask to speak with someone else xxx
it's things like this, that when you have your babe in your arms, you will laugh it. Put it in that bank until then 👍🏼 keep on going mama, you can do this!!!! ❤️❤️❤️
I am sorry to read this, I bet it was upsetting. We had similar feedback but after more rounds than you.. I decided to go to another clinic for a second opinion - you can just pay to have a consultation, talk through your history and get their guidance - anyway they said exactly the same thing as my previous clinic and told me to go donor eggs! Whilst I was upset, I felt like I had a solid answer having had it twice from two different consultants and it set me off on my next IVF adventure! x
Hey I have been meaning to reply, some of my feedback came from a receptionist telling me not to waste my money on my own eggs!!! Hence told the donor waiting list was 3 years so I swiftly moved away from the clinic to another!! From there had a really good conversation with a new consultant not really a different message but made me just feel like I did had the answers. Really sorry you got treated this way xxx
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