Diabetes & Hypertension Help Society
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Advice please

I was diagnosed diabetic In Sept 2015

And was being treated with metformin and glictaside which didn't help tbh

Last 18months I've been usIn insulin

Humalog...with food

Humalini fast acting...

And metformin n glictaside....

I try to eat healthily best I can...

But bloods are still dangerously high and unable to control

When I take insulin it flys up over 20 every time...

When it does go down belong 13 I start vomiting n feel quite ill...

Someone please point me in right direction xx

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What's your HBA1C

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Check out this site:

diabetes.co.uk

It's a private organisation dedicated to opposing the disastrous advice being given to diabetics by the NHS. There are several pages (here: diabetes.co.uk/diet-basics.... ) describing how to keep your blood sugar under control with dietary techniques; many diabetics eventually find they are "cured" using this method (that is, they don't need drugs anymore, although they do have to stick to the diet).

This isn't some crank snake-oil site selling potions and woo-woo: the people running it are experienced physicians.

As you start using the recommended diet, you will need help from your diabetes consultant (not the nurse) to reduce your insulin dose, but he will probably be sympathetic - most doctors are quietly opposed to the official approach. If he tells you to keep eating starches and injecting insulin, find another doctor.

You might also be interested in joining the LCHF community.

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Is DUK being run by experienced physicians? As a retired moderator of their forum I don’t believe it is. Also, it is there to cater for all people with Diabetes and is not just dedicated to one particular way of managing Diabetes.

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Are we talking about the same site? I see diabetes.co.uk has a forum attached to it, but that doesn't appear to be its primary intent. I suspect they declare that as their intent to avoid political blowback: most of the website is very specific advice for diabetes management.

Bear in mind that several professionals have lost their jobs, been ostracised, or even been prosecuted for telling diabetics how to manage their blood sugar without drugs. I'd like to think that this is mere stubbornness, but I can't help noting that there's a lot of money to be made in keeping diabetics ill without actually killing them. Covering your legal bases would be a smart move under those circumstances.

>> it is there to cater for all people with Diabetes and is not just dedicated to one particular way of managing Diabetes.

That may be so, but their advice pages are slanted towards helping people like Amieeellismay, whose diabetes is clearly not being well-controlled with a high-carb, insulin-assisted regime. Most of the dietary advice pages on diabetes.co.uk explain why the mainstream advice doesn't work for diabetics and what to do about it.

You're right, though: the team mostly aren't physicians. I was thinking of Public Health Collaboration UK, who have a similar message.

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We are talking about the same site. I was a mod for 5 years and am well aware how it works. The guy who runs the site is an expert in Artificial Intelligence not medicine. There were many discussions around different ways of managing Diabetes and, of course, the best way is what you can make work for you.

The forum is the most widely used part of the site producing much work for moderators!

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>> The guy who runs the site is an expert in Artificial Intelligence not medicine.

Yeah, I just discovered that. Whatever he is, though, he appears to have a more intelligent (and less dogmatic) message about diabetes than the Establishment.

IMO engineers are far more able to grasp the mechanics of the disease than doctors, especially if they have some background in system dynamics and/or control systems (as an AI guy would). I wonder how many doctors have noticed the similarity between insulin/glucagon secretion and the operation of a synchronous switching converter?

>> the best way is what you can make work for you.

No doubt. However, a body that has no innate ability to process carbohydrates for energy is probably best not given carbohydrates, which suggests that the low-carb approach would work for most diabetics. I don't think one needs to be a doctor to see the sense in that. Can you suggest a possible scenario where it would not work, or would be worse than a carb-based diet (plus drugs to force your body to process those carbs)?

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You cannot keep changing emphasis when you find out your original statement was incorrect. You originally based credence in low carb to be because the site was run by doctors but now it’s because the owner has an interest in AI!! Many people have successfully managed their diabetes by ways that are not low carb/high fat and I am one of them. I have been diagnosed with Type 2 for 20 years and my numbers are generally in the normal range with no complications of diabetes. Some people may find that they are just unable to keep to such a ketogenic diet and need to make good use of what they can achieve in conjunction with their meds.

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I posted the link because I thought @Amieeellismay might find it useful. That is all. I'm only having this conversation with you because you clearly don't want her to even look at it.

>> You originally based credence in low carb to be because the site was run by doctors but now it’s because the owner has an interest in AI!!

No, I suggested it because the information posted is in accord with the science and physiology of diabetes, whereas the official NHS approach is not. I thought Amieeellismay might be reassured by medical credentials, but it's not particularly important to me personally (incidentally, the owner doesn't "have an interest" in AI - he has a Master's from ICL, which is a bit different).

Anyway, for what it's worth, a bit of further checking indicates that the articles are written by qualified professionals, or at least under their advice:

diabetes.co.uk/contributors/

>> Many people have successfully managed their diabetes by ways that are not low carb/high fat and I am one of them. I have been diagnosed with Type 2 for 20 years and my numbers are generally in the normal range with no complications of diabetes.

That's fine. Despite the fact that it rarely works, you've managed to get lucky with the standard protocol. But this is not about you. Have you even read Amieeellismay's post? In engineering vernacular, she's on the right-hand side of the s-plane; in the common vernacular, she's up the effluent river without a manual propulsion device.

Her prescription doesn't work for her, and for three years she's been getting steadily worse. This is not just a slight medical hiccup: if she carries on like that she's going to end up in the ER. So why not let her read the website and let her make up her own mind?

>> Some people may find that they are just unable to keep to such a ketogenic diet and need to make good use of what they can achieve in conjunction with their meds.

Maybe so. But as Concerned said below, you don't actually have to stick to ketogenic carb levels; most Type 2 diabetics have functioning beta cells and simply need to stop blasting their system with carbs for a limited time. When insulin resistance abates, they can usually re-introduce a bit more carbs. The typical result is that they can maintain on a standard low-carb diet (about 100g/day) the same as any "normal" person. Even those who don't reach that point find they are much less reliant on medication.

Amieeellismay is probably well past the point of no return (which makes me mad as hell - two years ago she could have been cured). However, even in her current situation, she should be able to drastically reduce her drugs - with an endocrinologist's advice, obviously.

If you would rather inject insulin than change your diet, that's your decision. I'm frankly baffled that you would choose to, but it's your body. Denigrating techniques which could potentially saves lives simply because of your own personal biases is unconscionable. You haven't offered any support for your position other than "some people don't like staying in ketosis", which suggests you haven't even understood the diet-based management protocol.

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An interesting reply. I have no problems with people using Diabetes.co.uk or I would not have spent 5 years as a moderator on a busy site. My only issue, as it was as a moderator, was the overselling of low carb/high fat as the only way forward. It is not and many people would not have the ability to utilise such a diet. This, in turn, can make them feel that they are failures and that does not always help glucose control.

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>> the overselling of low carb/high fat as the only way forward.

I still don't really understand why you think something that's (almost) guaranteed to work can be "oversold", whereas something that's (almost) guaranteed to result in complete pancreatic failure and eventual blindness, cardiovascular disease and amputations represents a viable alternative.

It is physically impossible for carbohydrate restriction to not have a positive effect on glucose control, even if drugs are required as an adjunct.

>> It is not and many people would not have the ability to utilise such a diet.

Who, and why not? How many? 5% of diabetics? 50%? 95%?

Not wanting to do something and not being able to do something are two entirely different things. Given adequate motivation - i.e., the desire to not die - I would imagine most people can cope with the modest discomfort of low-carb induction.

I suspect the primary reason people can't do it is that they're given bad advice: I've heard of diabetic nurses telling people to try a "high protein" diet, which is not just incorrect, it's unpleasant and dangerous. People who are correctly advised invariably report the process as easy and painless.

Did you have some particularly bad experience with LCHF?

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When I was on DCUK we were happy that people were given a mixture of advice so that they could make up their own minds. I was not the only one who was doing well with a mixed diet. Your dire description of Diabetes without low carb/high fat is scaremongering. For many people calorific reduction (Newcastle Diet) would help by reducing insulin resistance (the problem of a lot of Type Twos) but the fear of death has not made all those with Diabetes run in that direction!

By all means present your view of diabetes management but don’t beef it up to something it is not - the only way.

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>> I was not the only one who was doing well with a mixed diet.

How do you define a 'mixed diet'? Is it, perchance, restricted-carb or low-GI? And what do you perceive as the primary advantage of a mixed diet and the primary disadvantage of a low-carb one? I'm prepared to be talked around on this one, but you're still being very coy about your reasons.

>> By all means present your view of diabetes management but don’t beef it up to something it is not - the only way.

I'm not presenting "my view". I'm describing some indisputable biological facts.

Carbohydrate is toxic to a body which cannot produce insulin (or cannot respond to it). It will kill you, either slowly or quickly. If you think this is not true, I was inquiring after the reasons for your belief.

"It's all good" is the modern view of pretty much everything. We mustn't be judgmental, amirite? Want to pour some gasoline on your chip-pan fire? Sure, go ahead, who are we to say what's right or wrong?

Some ways are better than others. I was asking you to offer support for your way.

>> Your dire description of Diabetes without low carb/high fat is scaremongering.

How is it possible to 'scaremonger' about something that has the potential to end your life? A diabetes diagnosis was literally a death sentence before the introduction of very-low-carb diets for treatment (yes, it was the first-line treatment originally ... because there wasn't really any other option).

Look, let's assume for a moment that a carb-based diet is somehow desirable. So we prescribe metformin. That merely masks the problem, by artificially controlling some (not all) of the symptoms of insulin resistance. Meanwhile, you're still feeding your body poison, your pancreas is redlining to keep up, and eventually it fails.

Not to worry, now we prescribe insulin. But what happens if, for some reason, you can't obtain insulin? If you continue to eat carbs, you're dead, simple as that.

Even if insulin is readily available (at the taxpayer's expense) it still can't control your blood sugar accurately because insulin represents only half of the differential signal that your body normally uses (insulin+glucagon), which is why even pulsatile insulin pumps don't work as well as you'd expect.

The NHS view of insulin management is comparable to bringing your car into the garage with a sticky thermostat, whereupon the mechanic takes a sledgehammer to your radiator and charges you for a new one. Without replacing the thermostat.

>> For many people calorific reduction (Newcastle Diet) would help by reducing insulin resistance (the problem of a lot of Type Twos) but the fear of death has not made all those with Diabetes run in that direction!

Of course everyone has the right to remain ill, if that's what they want. You can't force someone to help themselves (check out the post from the American woman with no insulin).

However, my view is that diabetics are forcefully turned away from potential cures because the medical establishment has a vested interest in keeping them ill. Low-carb diets, for example, are completely innocuous but are demonized as dangerous because they'll "give you heart disease". They don't. They have no downsides at all. On the other hand, CVD is a common and predictable outcome of the carbs+insulin diet. This isn't "giving people a choice". It's pure, unadulterated mendacity.

Incidentally, insulin resistance is not "the problem of a lot of Type 2s". It is the defining characteristic of Type 2. I would not necessarily advise LCHF for Type 1s because the situation is completely different.

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You need to see a health professional.

Carbohydrate is the only macronutrient that directly affects blood glucose levels, both in terms of Gi and amount, but that doesn't mean to avoid it; find the right amount that allows you to replenish what you use.

The more carbs you eat, the more meds you take to control it, the harder it is to control and the greater the risk of adverse reactions.

The ACCORD study established that high insulin levels are more hazardous to health than high blood glucose.

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