Carnivore Keto Issues and Concerns Especially For Parkinson's.

[Thal]

I've been reading and listing some random thoughts associated to the carnivore keto diets that may be true or untrue, unhealthy and dangerous, or just propaganda. Seems though that dairy, beef, pork, chicken, eggs, meats, fish, and animal products etc. should be avoided in favor of a healthier alternative. Below is a random list.

1. Parkinson's Medications Conflicts.

2. Viruses- Bovine Leukaemia / Bird Flu.

3. Vaccine & Antibiotic Overloads.

4. Bacteria Residues Inflammatory.

5. Prions / Mad Cow Disease CJD.

6. Iron Overload / Ferroptosis.

7. Saturated Fat / Cholesterol.

8. Kidney Dysfunctions.

9. Constipation & Bowel Disorders.

10. Vitamin - Mineral especially C Deficiencies.

11. Vascular Narrowing Esp Capillaries.

12. Hypoxia.

13. Nutrient Delivery Impeded / Slow Flow & Sludge.

14. High Blood Pressure & heart disease.

15. Estrogen & Other Hormones Excess Residues.

16. Decomposition Starts From Time Of Slaughter

17. Human Teeth & Jaws - Herbivore Characteristics.

18. Biomagnification / Upchain Toxins.

19. IGF 1.

20. Pink Slime & Preservatives.

21. B M I / Higher - Obesity.

22. Dementia & Mental Disorders.

23. Lunch Meat / Carcinogenic Nitrates.

24. Cramps & Hernia Assoc. Re Constipation.

25. Colorectal & Bowel Cancers.

26. Polyphenol Deficiencies.

27. Refrigeration & Freezing Dependant.

28. Slaughtering Process Misses Diseases.

29. Fertility Impairments & Sexual Dysfunctions.

30. Gout & Uric Acid.

31. Diabetes.

32. Leaky Gut.

33. High Heat Cooking - Carcinogenic.

34. Salt Overload.

35. Acne & Inflammations.

36. Ketoacidosis.

37. Proteinoses.

38. Energy Loss & Waste - Second Hand Digestion.

39. Climate Change & Pollution

40. Cross & Inter Species

Contaminations / Factory Farming.

41. Parasites & Other Bugs.

42. Animal Cruelty and Ethics.

43. Malnutrition / Nutrient Deficiencies.

44. Stomach Acidity Too Low.

45. Rabbit Starvation- Mal De Caribou Syndrome.

46. Life Expectancy Lower.

47. Slow Digestion - Putrefaction.

48. Irradiation Mutagens.

49. Pregnancy Issues - Toxins New Mothers.

50. Growth Hormones.

51. Old & Sickly Animals Processed.

52. Nose to Tail Processing.

53. Inter & Cross Species Feeding.

54. Dysbiosis - Lack of Fiber.

55. Expensive.

56. Not Sustainable Population Wise.

57. Electrolyte Imbalance.

58. Bad Breath & Faeces Odour.

59. How Long Since Slaughter Not Required.

60. Butchering & Retailing Hygiene Poor and Suspect?

61. Infant Feeding Not Compatible.

62. ?????

Any more?

Hope it helps and if not why not?

[Boscoejean]

does this " Biomagnification / Upchain Toxins" mean accumulation of environmental toxins in the animals?

[Thal in reply to Boscoejean]

I believe so and also known as bioaccumulation Wikipedia

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Bioaccumulation is the gradual accumulation of substances, such as pesticides or other chemicals, in an organism.[1] Bioaccumulation occurs when an organism absorbs a substance faster than it can be lost or eliminated by catabolism and excretion. Thus, the longer the biological half-life of a toxic substance, the greater the risk of chronic poisoning, even if environmental levels of the toxin are not very high.[2] Bioaccumulation, for example in fish, can be predicted by models.[3][4] Hypothesis for molecular size cutoff criteria for use as bioaccumulation potential indicators are not supported by data.[5] Biotransformation can strongly modify bioaccumulation of chemicals in an organism.[6]

Toxicity induced by metals is associated with bioaccumulation and biomagnification.[7] Storage or uptake of a metal faster than it is metabolized and excreted leads to the accumulation of that metal.[8] The presence of various chemicals and harmful substances in the environment can be analyzed and assessed with a proper knowledge on bioaccumulation helping with chemical control and usage.[9]

An organism can take up chemicals by breathing, absorbing through skin or swallowing.[7] When the concentration of a chemical is higher within the organism compared to its surroundings (air or water), it is referred to as bioconcentration.[1] Biomagnification is another process related to bioaccumulation as the concentration of the chemical or metal increases as it moves up from one trophic level to another.[1] Naturally, the process of bioaccumulation is necessary for an organism to grow and develop; however, the accumulation of harmful substances can also occur.[7

[Boscoejean in reply to Thal]

years ago I remembered liver being touted as a very healthy thing to eat but at the time I thought but wouldn't toxins accumulate in the liver of the animal- I never ate liver even as a kid because I could not stand the smell but maybe that was a warning

[Thal in reply to Boscoejean]

I've enjoyed liver and onions and believed that it's nutritious and healthy but learning more and facing up to the issues with animal consumption I should say no next Tuesday when my favorite diner has liver and onions on special. Pity!

Won't have to worry about meds back lash . That's the good news.

[Ghmac in reply to Thal]

I had this same assumption. Read recently that although the liver filters toxins it does not contain the toxins. Which surprised me. I use to love liverwurst. I don't imagine I could find organic - but if I did I would buy it now.

[Smittybear7]

That’s frightening! Is anything safe to eat? I thought grass fed beef and organic chicken were good choices. Also have osteoporosis and you’re supposed to eat lots of protein and calcium. Very frustrating to know what to eat ! Thanks for sharing.Hope you’re doing well!

[Thal in reply to Smittybear7]

I understand that plants have lots of protein and calcium which makes them nutritious and safe to eat than grass fed and organic beef or chicken for your osteoporosis. They got their bones from plants. Not from possibly dead and rotting flesh which is frightening and unhealthy no matter how you slice and spice it. Thanks I m doing well and getting better on my daily big bowl of minestrone. Hope you're doing well also.

[Smittybear7 in reply to Smittybear7]

I have both Parkinson’s and osteoporosis. Parkinson’s protein is a problem with c/l. Osteoporosis the big push is protein (meat)., and calcium rich foods. I’m so confused as to what to eat and when . Thanks for your information.My husband and I just lost a very dear friend to Mad Cow disease. A horrible disease.

[Thal in reply to Smittybear7]

Sorry for your painful loss of a very dear friend to a horrible disease.I'm convinced that a healthy whole food vegan diet and lifestyle is the better way to eat for health and comfort. I like to follow the advice of senior doctors like Dr John McDougall and Dr Esselstyn who proven through experience and science that a plant based diet is by far the best and healthier way to eat. Also I follow Dr. Micheal Greger who's website has very helpful information based on real science without any advertising. Relative to Parkinson's especially he is knowledgeable and experienced. His father passed away with the disease so he has first hand knowledge which is comforting to know.

I find the vegan diet to be very compatible with Parkinson's medications Whereas my experience with the keto carnivore diet was very negative and sickening. I regret that I did not pay attention to the obvious facts that a meat based diet is wrong and unhealthy every which way you look at it with serious issues and concerns. I Feel I was duped by doctors and personalities who should know better.

I'll try and be more vigilant in the future as this disease worsens progressevily.

The irony is that I am getting healthier from a nourishment and activity point of view while at the same time I'm getting weaker, woblier, wonkier, and shakier..

I'm looking forward to my delicious, nutritious large minestrone breakfast full of beans, assorted veggies from frozen mixes, mixed berries also frozen, nuts. seeds like chia, flax, walnuts, pumpkin, sesame, & poppy, Herbs,& spices, cayenne, Italian blend, beet powder, pepper, ginger, turmeric, olives, salsa. & Other fruits and vegetables I may have around. I have it prepared & premixed, boil filtered water, microwave the frozen veggies in a large Pyrex bowl, mix and enjoy, Sometimes I blend it,

I find that it's enough for the whole day, just snacking on fruit and veggies throughout. Manage well with my medications with little food interference. .

Being in my eight year, I'm on 3 madopar every 3 hrs usually 4 x daily taking extra if stressed or extra socializing. I'm also testing entacapone 200 mg 3 times daily as an extender. Seems to help with less off time, a smoother transition between doses and a little more restful sleep. Hope it works for me because it may have side effects like bowel and mental.

If it works I hope to transition to a single combined pill, easier, will reduce the need to increase levodopa and be more convenient especially approaching the time I need to consider assisted living. The meds will be dispensed a little more reliably. And keep me compliant and chugging along, singing a song, and having too much fun.

Wish the best for you as you also deal with your unique situation.

Happy days.

[amykp]

Water is toxic if you drink too much of it. So are many vegetables.

The only way to really know what diet is best to eat for Parkinson's would be controlled, long-term randomized trials...and there's no good way to do any, really. Anything else is conjecture. Although I don't personally follow a carnivore diet (I eat keto w/lots of green veggies and berries) some folks have been amazed at how much better they feel.

So I say: do what works for you. if your progression is slow and you feel pretty good most of the time, you're probably on the right track!

[Thal in reply to amykp]

Keto was the worst experience of my life. Gave me severe constipation . Can not believe I fell for it. A high fat diet is definitely sickening from all respects. The people promoting it make it sound so good and healthy. Where in reality it must be carried out only under strict medical supervision. Other than constipation and other gut problems it will clog your arteries and capillaries leading to high blood pressure, slowing blood velocity, malabsorption of important nutrients, hypoxia, dementia, and ketoacidosis if one is not careful. The feeling better feeling is short term and false euphoria. The build up of high cholesterol and saturated fat negatively affects all parts of the body. Case in point the eyes and macular degeneration. An eye doctor can visibly see the cholesterol and fat globules clogging the capillaries and veins at the back of the eye causing one to go blind. Do not know the permanent damage I have caused and if I will ever recover from ingesting those poisons.

This is factual reality and not conjecture. We do not need a long term, controlled, randomized trial to understand the obvious like drowning in too much water or eating poisonous plants. Feeling pretty good most of the time and slow progression of our Parkinson's disease could be dilutionary, misinformed and very damaging to health and well being.

I have been led down the wrong track . It has been hard to not be fooled by doctors and people in authority who should know better. Carnivore, Keto, and any meat / flesh based diets are very unhealthy. Hopefully never again.

[Shotzy in reply to Thal]

please read studies performed by neurologist Matthew Phillips in New Zealand regarding keto diets in Parkinson’s. You may change your mind. Personally I have been on a mostly keto diet (with occasional cheat days) for over a year and my Parkinson’s symptoms have not progressed at all.

[Thal in reply to Shotzy]

Fat clogs arteries.

[JayPwP in reply to Thal]

Is a myth

[Thal in reply to JayPwP]

Tell it to all the monkeys that suffered and died from a high fat diet.

[JayPwP in reply to Thal]

youtu.be/XFFT4C1OcPY(Not working as expected?)

[Thal in reply to JayPwP]

Drains and streams get clogged by fat just like arteries.

[JayPwP in reply to Thal]

youtu.be/9-PhPsJPzsI(Not working as expected?)

Saturated fat does not cause heart disease.

[Thal in reply to JayPwP]

Low fat vegans live longer and healthier.

[JayPwP in reply to Thal]

Evidence supports high fat low carb diet

[Thal in reply to JayPwP]

Billions of humans thrive on a low fat veg diet today and for a long time. Look at a map of the world. Most of the human s on earth have no fridges to store the fat.

[Thal in reply to JayPwP]

Actually on doing a little reading run into two terms. "Rabbit starvation"and "mal de caribou". Seems that wild meat is too lean for health and that feed lots and fattened meat is a rather new western construct. Think the cigar smokers in the boardroom thought of a new way to turn 10 cents of grain into 10 dollars of profit. Maybe?

[Shotzy in reply to Thal]

Thal,

You are incorrect.I am a physician practicing for over 20 years. Fat alone does Not clog arteries. Vascular disease is due to a multitude of risk factors including genetics, hypertension, smoking, diabetes, elevated LDL cholesterol (in high risk individuals). If someone wishes to pursue a ketogenic diet and is concerned about vascular disease risk they can discuss with their physician if this diet is appropriate for them. Their physician can order tests,such as carotid intimal scans or coronary calcium scans to help determine their individual risks. For you to make a blanket statement “fat clogs arteries” is inaccurate and irresponsible.

[Thal in reply to Shotzy]

youtu.be/zOAapJo9cE0?si=jYi...(Not working as expected?)

[Thal in reply to Shotzy]

youtu.be/sfPMWUI5yyc?si=oBv...(Not working as expected?)

[Shotzy in reply to Thal]

You are incorrect.I am a physician practicing for over 20 years. Fat alone does Not clog arteries. Vascular disease is due to a multitude of risk factors including genetics, hypertension, smoking, diabetes, elevated LDL cholesterol (in high risk individuals). If someone wishes to pursue a ketogenic diet and is concerned about vascular disease risk they can discuss with their physician if this diet is appropriate for them. Their physician can order tests,such as carotid intimal scans or coronary calcium scans to help determine their individual risks. For you to make a blanket statement “fat clogs arteries” is inaccurate and irresponsible.

[Thal in reply to Shotzy]

youtu.be/RGy3jhiPqD0?si=KVg...(Not working as expected?)

[Thal in reply to Shotzy]

youtu.be/uTDghOOrl-8?si=z8y...(Not working as expected?)

[Thal in reply to Shotzy]

FAT CLOGS ARTERIES .

KETO DIET KILLS.

.

[justoldage]

A octogenarian LADY has been a carnivore for 65 years and runs her British Columbia ranch.

[Thal in reply to justoldage]

My uncle lived to 105 years also a carnivore . Some survive through anything no matter how bad it might be. Still thinking that a plant based diet and lifestyle is better and healthier because of the basic science of injesting less poison.

[BigTexan in reply to Thal]

all plants you purchase are sprayed with chemicals. Grass fed beef is way cleaner

[Thal in reply to BigTexan]

Agreed grass fed beef is way cleaner than plants sprayed with chemicals baring in mind that organic plants are available. But that being said even grass fed beef has concerns and issues that I have listed above such as saturated fat, estrogenic and other hormones, viruses, bacterias, prions, parasites, diseases, suspect bad slaughtering and handling practices, etc....listed above that have been proven to be unhealthy and unsafe for humans to eat.Even clean meat is a second hand product processed from vegan sources that could be a wasted step energy and nutrients wise, biomagnified, bioaccumulated, and not necessarily healthier but actually making us sicker. And incompatible with Parkinson's medications for dosing and timing leading to erractic results.

Wouldn't it be smarter and healthier to bypass the possible unsafe, dangerous step and live a healthier, happier life?

Happy munching to you.

[BigTexan in reply to Thal]

To each their own! I'm not knocking your beliefs so please don't get me wrong. Carnivore is the way for me. We can both find studies and people to back ourselves up. I believe humans are designed to eat meat first, vegetables when they are starving. You do you and I have your back.

[Thal in reply to BigTexan]

I get it. You're right. To each their own. I'm trying to not knock your beliefs also which is hard for me because I started the post from a position of questioning the meat diet with a list of concerns and issues from my experience and perspective which is definitely not yours. So also please don't get me wrong. Carnivore is your way and having been there, real and valid. Also so true that we can both find studies and people to back up our points of view. That's what has got me going through this wading through the conflicting conversations trying to make sense of it all and coming to my conclusions.Your belief that humans are designed to eat meat with vegetables whenever necessary is again real and seriously backed up.

A look forward to continuing the learning conversation as you do you also.

Thanks, helpful.

[Thal in reply to BigTexan]

Also forgot to mention that I am a shepherd farmers son, former might cook at a swanky steak and lobster restaurant and restaurant manager for a famous hamburger chain. Lived, enjoyed, and benefited from the animal products industry. Over the last fifty years or so I have come to the understanding that the meat industry is a biohazard to the health of everyone and the environment.

Thanks for your input and wish you good health and happiness. Perhaps maybe a vegan understanding of a good life will be the result of this discussion for the betterment of mankind.

Happy trails to you till we meet again.

[BigTexan in reply to Thal]

How much diesel, oil, tires, refrigeration, does it take to get vegetables 1000's of miles from where they are grown. Vegetables were not accessible year round to early humans. So they didn't eat them except when they were available. Animals are everywhere, and sure we need more sustainable ranching and it is on the rise. Everyone could get meat from their local ranchers. Again, just the other side. Peace.

[Thal in reply to BigTexan]

The meat industry has been necessary and life saving because of weather and convenience never mind that it tastes great and packs a lot of nutrition. Vegetable and fruit maybe not so much except for the tropical regions and after the advent of farming perhaps. I think the meat industry may have gotten a little out of hand over time which has led me to my concerns and issues.

Thanks again . To be continued..

Peace to you also

.

[WhyRBD]

well I was a strick vegan for 10 years that pressure cooked all lectins and guess what - I have prodromal PD and prodromal LBD. Guess meat may not be the issue

[Thal in reply to WhyRBD]

Meat may be an issue if it is poisoned and unhealthy. Plants may be a safe and healthy choice. We'll see.

[amykp]

I've been strict keto since the day I was diagnosed (2015) and I haven't had any of the problems you mention. I actually test my blood every three months (HDL >90, LDL < 70, triglycerides <60 HbA1c =50...

...it was terrible before I went keto). Most important, my PD has barely progressed (I am still in stage 1)

Obviously I am not a randomized controlled study. But what I think is, you can't make sweeping generalizations. I happen to agree that veggies are important, so I eat lots of non-starchy ones, along with meat and high fat dairy (and nuts and EVOO etc.)

I also suspect that sugar and ultra processed food is likely terrible for everyone. But there's no real proof of that either--it's just my opinion.

[Thal in reply to amykp]

Great to hear you're doing well and wish you continued good health. But I don't see how a meat based diet can be healthy based on my negative experience and the medical facts that a high fat diet is unhealthy proven over and over again and will sooner or later cause bad things to happen.

Also it's very incompatible with Parkinson's medications making them less effective and timing erractic.

Sugar and ultra processed foods diets are terrible for everyone with plenty of unequivocal real proof available in study after study and real world experience that they cause malnutrition and the associated negative health effects. It's no longer an opinion when the facts of the matter are presented and delt with logically and reasonably. That way 2 plus 2 will always equal 4. Striving for the real truth based on the facts and not an alternate truth, conviction, or opinion in cooperation and fellowship for the common good is what I hope to strive for.

Keep well and thanks for your helpful input.

[Thal in reply to amykp]

Also forgot to add about you obviously not being a randomized controlled study but you can be a valid case study. So I agree with you one can't make a sweeping generalizations but one can analyze your situation and experience to come to some understanding.Why then are you doing well eating non starchy vegetables with meat and high fat dairy ( and nuts and EVOO etc) when there are so many seemingly real concerns and issues outlined in my listing above?

There is or will be an answer to the benefit of our collective community. To be continued....

Thanks again. Have a good one

[JohnPepper]

Why all this confusion with any form of medication when all you have to do to reverse your PD symptoms is to WALK AS FAST AS YOU CAN FOR ONE HOUR, EVERY SECOND DAY!

You may only mange to do five minutes to begin with but after six months you will be doing the full hour and getting BETTER.

I HAVE BEEN PD SYMPTOM-FREE SINCE 1996.