B-Complex

[Karmaone]

I posted recently about starting fresh with supplements. I decided to start with Ingennus super b complex. I was taking 1 of the recommended 2 tablets a day with breakfast. After a week I was floored by extreme fatigue. I stopped for a few days, felt better, and took 1 more, that evening extreme fatigue again.... Doesn't feel like placebo at this point.

Any thoughts? I was hoping to be stable on a low dose of b complex and start B1 again. Only thing I am taking other than prescribed meds is magnesium before bed....

[Esperanto]

A dose of 0.9 mg of vitamin B12, such as in Igennus Super B-Complex, is generally considered a very high dosage, providing 36,000% of the recommended daily amount (RDA). Depending on the context of vitamin B12 for adults, it is usually unnecessary to take doses higher than the RDA of approximately 2.4 micrograms (mcg), unless specifically prescribed by a doctor.

The body can absorb vitamin B12 well and any excess is typically excreted through urine. However, prolonged intake of large amounts of vitamin B12 can lead to side effects including fatigue, dizziness, nausea, and skin rash.

In my contribution on B-complexes, I have already warned about the high B12 dosage in Igennus.

healthunlocked.com/cure-par...

[pdpatient]

Most likely due to Vitamin B6 which is part of B Complex. Unless you take Levodopa at a significantly different time, likely to interfere.

 park_bear has written extensively about this.

[park_bear in reply to pdpatient]

Thanks for the mention. Indeed taking B6 simultaneously with a dose of levodopa medication is likely to inactivate both. Further detail can be found here: healthunlocked.com/cure-par...

Not sure that is what is responsible for the OP's fatigue though.

[Buckholt]

All I can add is that I’ve taken 1 tablet of Ingennus super b complex for a few years, and had no problems. Indeed it’s been the one constant supplement. It’s hard to find the perfect product, but theses tablets contain bio active forms and are sustained release. I also note that they have over 21000 Amazon ratings so must be selling well.

[Karmaone in reply to Buckholt]

Yeah it was the bio availability that sold me on it...

[Esperanto in reply to Buckholt]

Unfortunately, ratings do not always reflect the quality and good dosage of different vitamins. There are significant individual variations in absorption due to various factors. The problem here is likely not the quality, which seems to be okay, but rather the dosage. The difference with the average Amazon consumer is that we are blessed with PD and there can be an interaction with our medication.

This is the case with B6 in particular. There is a delicate balance involved. Carbidopa can lower B6 levels in the body, which can lead to a deficiency in B6. It is therefore important to regulate B6 intake and consider taking a supplement. However, excessive B6 intake can reduce the effectiveness of carbidopa-levodopa. The dosage of 1 serving of Igennus super B-complex with 2 capsules of in total 20 mg is high and can disrupt this balance. You could try taking 1 capsule every other day.

[Karmaone in reply to Esperanto]

I did only take 1 capsule daily, then the fatigue hit, I stopped for a few days, felt fine again, tried 1 capsule and the fatigue came back quickly. Either that was placebo, or even 1 capsule seems to be too much.....

[park_bear in reply to Esperanto]

>"excessive B6 intake can reduce the effectiveness of carbidopa-levodopa"

Not in my experience. Taking 70 mg of B6 as P5P does not interfere with my doses of C/L 25/100. I take them with at least 2 hours interval separating the two.

[Esperanto in reply to park_bear]

Vitamin B6 reduces the effectiveness of levodopa, but it does not seem to have the same effect on the combination of levodopa and carbidopa, which should also prevent this loss of levodopa. Given the well-discussed interaction between carbidopa and B6, in my opinion, there is indeed an effect on the functioning of the C/L medication in some of us when overdosed. This has been my experience, at least. After experiencing significant improvement in my PD symptoms due to B6 supplementation following a severe B6 deficiency, there were two instances where overdosing on B6 led to a clear new deterioration of my PD situation. I share the same experiences with Frank C. Church, who has described this on his website and also explains the stacking effect, illustrating it clearly with the formation of a "Schiff Base."

journeywithparkinsons.com/2...

PB it is clear that, like you, I consider the risk of a B6 deficiency in PD to be greater than an excess. However, the high dosages of some supplements can lead to unwanted side effects that can be avoided if we strive for balance. I have finally managed to find that balance, allowing me to function almost symptom-free with a minimal, personalized dosage of C/L at the moment.

[park_bear in reply to Esperanto]

Interesting post by Frank Church. He says:

"Timing wise, I was taking the complex B vitamin pill [with 100 mg of vitamin B6] with my early morning carbidopa/levodopa pill on an empty stomach"

Before the complicated process that he suggests has a chance to take place, the B6 and the carbidopa will simply meet up in the lumen of the digestive tract and bind together irreversibly, thereby inactivating both. As a result of the carbidopa becoming inactivated, the levodopa will no longer be effective. I had the same result, which I then demonstrated can be avoided by taking them at separate times, thereby proving my explanation is correct.

Very glad to hear you are doing well.

[Markbit]

From my experience in helping others with the B1 protocol, you are having a B1 overdose. Each pill has 80 mg of B1, For example, i have one person that is doing very well at 2 mg every 4 days, and another at 4 mg every other day. There are people that are really "low dosers", and by what you wrote i imediatly saw an overdose pattern. I suggest that you stop for a few days and restart at 1/4 pill every 3 days. Contact-me if you need,

Marco

[Karmaone in reply to Markbit]

I was taking 1/2 a 100mg superior source sublingual every alternative day without the fatigue previously. Since then I decided to start a fresh, and only taking the b-complex, I'm inclined to believe that it's something specific to this... It could all be in my head tbh. I'm thinking of getting some capsules and making some placebo tablets and asking my wife to randomly assign me to the b-complex or placebo....

[Markbit in reply to Karmaone]

For what i have been seeing, is not placebo for sure, for example one of the symptoms of someone when was on B1 was smell recovery, That's impossible to be placebo. I have another person that is doing great on a Complex B50 from now but doesn't get the same results from 50 mg of B1 hcl (the same B1 amount). It's very personalized and very trial and error. My advice stays the same

[Karmaone in reply to Markbit]

Yeah I wasn't implying that the B1 protocol overall was placebo effect, just specifically the fatigue from this b-complex for me.... I appreciate your offer of support in this. I may purchase a lower dose b-complex and try again. The eartheir organic looks nice and low. Also I think I want to try oral instead of sublingual just for consistency as I get up at different times often and it's a pita with my schedule.

[1LittleWillow in reply to Markbit]

Marco, are the PWP you know of who are taking 2 and 4 mg of B1 taking HCL or some other form?

[Markbit in reply to 1LittleWillow]

They are all taking oral forms (hcl)

[1LittleWillow in reply to Markbit]

Thank you.

[Markbit in reply to 1LittleWillow]

They are all taking oral forms (hcl)

[LindaP50]

Are you taking your C/L 30 or 60 minutes before eating protein? Protein can interfere with the effectiveness of the C/L.

[Karmaone in reply to LindaP50]

Thank you, I plan my medication around meals and time everything so as not to change the efficacy of my medication. The only thing I changed was taking the B-Complex in addition to my normal regime.

[Possmenatt]

Hi there Karmaone.If you’re in the uk this a B complex with 100% recommended daily allowance

B complex 100%rda uk

[Esperanto in reply to Possmenatt]

One drawback of this Zipvit B-complex 100% RDA is that it does not take into account the absorption factor, which varies for each of the B vitamins. Although there are plants on the label, it is completely synthetic (so indeed, fully vegan... 😉) and not bioactive. It is especially not recommended for B6 (no P5P).

[jimcaster]

I also take a B complex with very high B12 levels. (41,667 % of RDA). Of all the supplements I have ever taken, the B complex had the most immediate and noticeable effect on my system. I immediately felt better the first time I took the capsules and I've been taking them now for nearly 6 years. I feel more energetic and more alert than I did before I was taking them. If it works for you, it works for you. You should excrete any excess anyway.

[Esperanto in reply to jimcaster]

We are all unique individuals, Jim. Perhaps it doesn't work for Karmaone. The effectiveness of B12 supplementation can vary due to several factors. One key factor is the individual's metabolism, which can affect how well they absorb and utilize B12. Genetics may also play a role, as some people may have a predisposition for reduced B12 absorption. Additionally, lifestyle factors such as diet, individual health conditions like digestive disorders or medication use can impact B12 absorption and effectiveness. Also there is the interaction between the different B vitamins…

So it is crucial to do appropriate testing to determine your individual correct dosage and form of B12 and other B vitamin supplementation.

[jimcaster in reply to Esperanto]

I agree 100%. I was just sharing my experience, but I recognize that my experience is simply....my experience.