Wondering if solarjdo69 still in the forum and how you are doing taking your natural supplements for a blood thinner. And did you do this with Dr's okay? Thanks.
Nattokinase: Wondering if solarjdo6... - Atrial Fibrillati...
Nattokinase
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belindalore
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BobDVolunteer
Just to be clear "natural" anticoagulants are not recommended by doctors, AFA or members here as they are not quantifiable. This subject has been aired many times and it is very risky. People have died from taking home brewed anticoagulation.
People have also died from taking the prescription meds. Just because they are prescription doesn't make them safe. This person was taking natto and a couple other natural supplements and the post I'd read of his said he was doing fine on them. I cant find his post that talks about that. There is a holistic cardiologist in Arizona in the USA who treats his patients and uses the nattokinase. He was a cardiologist for years before he became holistic. He was tired of his patients not getting well on the prescriptions. He was ranked number one in his field for years. He did many ablations. He was the one everyone sought out but he didn't see long-term improvement in his patients. He looked for a better way. And like I've said on here before we are all more than symptoms and there is a cause for Afib. He decided to look for the causes of the symptoms. He doesn't advocate for people to drop their meds. Or go off helter skelter. He advocates for them to speak to their cardio Drs. But for some people the Drs are the problem. Not enough of them listen to the patient. Don't want to hear that these meds cause some of us horrible side effects and drastically lower the QOL. Don't test for any nutrient deficiencies that could certainly be causing symptoms. They only know pills and procedures because that's what they're taught. I asked my cardio Dr to test for deficiencies I might have and he looked at me like I was an alien. That's sad. I learned about how nutrients work on our bodies and for the heart in science class in grade school and biology in high school. And these Drs don't want to test for deficiencies because it doesn't make them the big money. Sad sad sad. I'll repeat it again. We are more than just symptoms.
• in reply tobelindalore
Curious about the references to not getting well on prescription stuff! I have been enjoying prescription stuff for over 10 & half years including stuff people love to ridicule ( Warfarin) and I have a very high standard of QOL. Sure, no cure, but managed by me with help from my GP when needed. I was a bus driver, and at nearly 76 I still work regularly as a bus driver doing 42 hr shifts per week. The only supplement I take is BIOQ10. All the rest are prescription meds, my AF is paroxysmal and I have a tendency to being asymptomatic. My GP knows my feelings on various medical issues. She knows I control my own destiny, she knows I keep my own medical statistics which on occasions she asks for ( based on modern tech devices I own) and equally if she feels something needs exploring she will action it, as is the case at the moment. So it is probably wise to present a more balanced discussion when discussing the merits or otherwise of this, that and the other.
belindalore• in reply to
I happen to be a person who is super sensitive to prescription meds. Always have been. I suffer from side effects no matter what I've taken for whatever illness through the years. My Drs always knew that. The cardio Dr I got when I was diagnosed with Afib doesn't understand that.
Great that you do well on your meds. You apparently don't understand either that there are people like me who's bodies don't tolerate these prescription meds.. I eat well. I exercise. Everyone's body and metabolism is different. If everyone was the same why would there even be drug studies to see how people react to these drugs. Don't lump everyone in the same pot just because you do okay on prescription meds. We are NOT all the same. I know my body same as you do yours.
Auriculaire• in reply to
You are lucky. I was made asthmatic by desensitisation jabs. I was never informed that that was a possibility. I would have decided to stick with the runny nose. You can't die of a runny nose. I have had my health compromised for 30 years now because of Fluoroquinolone prescriptions. The first time (30 years ago) given for chronic sinusitis. The various antibiotics given did not work. What did work was a course of aupuncture. A great deal more unpleasant than swallowing pills as the needles were inserted in my face but it worked. The FQ gave me Achilles tendon problems, plantar fascitis a very painful back and knees. And I suspect affected my thyroid Over several years these problems resolved ( not the thyroid for which I am treated for life) and I was floxed a second time 10 years later. Result this time - cartilage degeneration in my ribs ,return of disc problems. A third and fourth floxing (the last as I discovered the connection between these drugs and connective tissue problems and will die rather than take them again) brought peripheral neuropathy, shoulder tendonitis, a return of Achilles tendonitis and an intensification of cartilage loss. I am now facing a double hip replacement. A balanced discussion would also point out that iatrogenic disease mainly due to prescription drugs is one of the leading killers . In America only cancer and heart disease outstrip it. I assume you are a man. Women are more likely to react badly to drugs. Maybe because for donkey's years nobody bothered to include them in clinical trials or even use female lab animals. No need for those pesky female hormones to mess up their oh so reliable RCTs.
So sorry to hear what happened to you. Unfortunately you are a prime example of what can happen to anyone who has bad reactions to these prescription meds. I will keep you in my prayers. And for all the Drs who have no caring and don't tell their patients the problems these drugs can cause their patients may they rot in hell. Along with the big pharmas.
Stupid me did a drug study probably 30 years ago. When I was dumb about prescription meds. They pay you well to do them but I would never do that again. There were lots of women in the study. All different ages. And men. I'm in the USA. The problem I keep thinking and saying the drug studies aren't long enough and whatever risks that are found are put on the back burners if there's any little bit of good the drug might do. Money is the goal. And that is just shameful.
I re-read your post again and the last sentence is so true. That is something else Drs don't look at. Hormones. Not just women but men too. I had no idea that we actually have the same hormones but if you're male then the male hormones are pronounced and if female our female hormones are pronounced. I so wish I could afford the holistic cardio Dr in Arizona. He doesn't overlook anything. And he has a team of people trained to go over any tests you take through him and together you all figure out if you're lacking in any nutrients or something. If only I could find that pot of gold at the end of a rainbow 🌈. Lol..... In the meantime I'll just keep plugging along. Take care.
• in reply toAuriculaire
Your assumption is correct.
Luck or lack of doesn't enter into it. Ultimately it's down to genetics. I am a part of my family that's got a bloody good gene pool. It's something that ultimately could well send drug cartels to the wall. But, at my age it's unlikely to happen in my lifetime. Imagine dealing with a medical condition by identifying the rogue gene and dealing with it. Sci-Fi !
belindalore• in reply to
It's good that you do have good genes in your family. It certainly helps. I have a cousin in California. He's 77 yrs old now. He was diagnosed as having problems with TTN protein. Never heard of it before. It's a protein that has to do with the elasticity of muscles. Which would of course include the heart. It seems to come from his father's side. Apparently this protein can go haywire and if in the heart can cause the heart to stop functioning all of a sudden and the person dies. There have been a few unexplained deaths on my cousin's father's side of the family and my cousin's Drs said it's very possible those deaths could have been from this protein being bad and they suffered heart failure. My cousin said this TTN protein failure was just found out about recently and he was fortunate enough to be tested for it when he started having problems. My cousin is also wealthy so was able to get top notch Drs. I'm not sure what he takes but there's some sort of meds he takes for it and last I talked to him he was doing fine. So there's some sci-fi example. Who knew? But someone doing research found this out. And lastly let me say, we all may not agree with some things on this forum, but it is here so we can voice our beliefs and feelings. One thing we do is try and support one another. I would never mean to offend anyone intentionally. I truly am glad you are doing so well. I wish that for everyone.
Auriculaire• in reply to
It is thought that there is a genetic element to floxing . Some people are very seriously harmed ie go from being healthy athletic types to wheelchair bound after ingesting a few tablets while others can ingest course after course with no apparent harm. However indiscriminate prescription of antibiotics and other meds has nothing to do with luck. It has more to do with hubris and greed. You have only to look at the practice of prescribing antibiotics to animals to make them fatten up quicker. This is still permitted in America. If this is an effect on poultry pigs and cattle is it not probable that humans might also be affected this way and that the effect of antibiotics on the microbiome has some responsibility for the epidemic of obesity ? I come from a family on my mother's side with weak chests and grew up in "cotton mill country" . I had a cough every winter and colds and flu nearly always turned into bronchitis. I had too many antibiotics as a kid and scods more as a young woman due to UTIs. But the latter were really unnecessary. I was able to stop the UTIs with very simple practical steps . But no doctor told me about these - not my GP nor the consultants in the Edinburgh hospital where I went for 3 days of investigations into my kidneys. I read about them in a woman's magazine. The doctors would have gone on with their antibiotic prescriptions. There was nothing wrong with my kidneys and I still have the kidney function of a young person according to the yearly tests we get here in France.
I agree with you. Antibiotics will certainly mess with microbiome. Yes the USA still uses antibiotics on their animals to keep them from getting sick. I suppose it could help fatten them up. But to fatten them up they are housed by the thousands in huge buildings and fed things chickens would not normally eat to fatten them up. They never see daylight. I saw a tv program about and it's sickening. So people eat that chicken and they eat the antibiotics. Some producers have stopped doing it but not all. A lot to say in you are what you eat. 😕
They are still allowed to use them for fattening . This practice was forbidden in Europe. It was discovered ages ago that antibiotics caused quicker fattening of animals and saved on food outlays.
I stand corrected. You are right. It's a shame it's still allowed in this country. It's also done with other livestock. This country has depleted it's land with the use of chemicals. Corporations have gotten away with polluting the water sources. And still do. When there's lots of money like these big corporations have, it's usually swept under the rug. And of course politics are always involved. If so and so Mr politician goes against these corporations he might not get re-elected. Can't have that happen. There's uranium barrels buried underground that have been leaking for years. Thousands of jets fly over and pollute the environment. Run off (manure and chemicals)from big corporate farms. Big cruise ships and personal craft dump their sewage in the oceans and lakes and rivers. The St John's River runs almost the whole length of Florida where I live. It was the 6th most polluted river in the whole USA. I don't imagine it's gotten any better. And people fish there and eat the fish. Not me. Oh eat organic people say. Well I don't see how anything is organic with all the pollution I mentioned. How could it be? You've got all this stuff blowing in the wind and getting deposited miles away. I knew of a grape vineyard in Kansas where I hail from. It was organic. Until a farmer a few miles up the road sprayed his crops with chemical pesticides. Blew clear to the vineyard and killed a big area of the vineyard. Wasn't organic anymore. I think this country is on the road to no return. It can't keep going on the way it has. It will eventually collapse.
Whoa I really vented. Sorry. I'm just realistic. The "good ole USA" isn't so good. Couple hundred years ago I'd have been tarred and feathered for saying that. 😒 Take care.
I bet a pound to a penny a lot more people die from prescribed drugs including from cerebral haemorrhage caused by anticogulants precsribed in the recommended doses. Confidence in the " one size fits all" dosing strategies for allopathic drugs is misplaced given what has recently been discovered about genetic differences in metabolisation by the liver. To say nothing of thescandal of sex differences in reactions to drugs being ignored by medicine.
Thank you. Nice to know some people on here have some sense. Prescription drugs in my opinion need to be studied for years instead of weeks or months. But the pharmas want to hurry up and get their drugs out there so they can make the money. In the USA there are class action lawsuits for some drug or another all the time. Because the long term side effects are not known. Healthcare has become so profit driven its sickening.
• in reply tobelindalore
.... and this is why I stay with Warfarin, it's been proven over many decades, unlike the NOAC's. I don't trust the NOAC's nor do I trust the drug cartels that developed them, no more than I would trust a politician!
jeanjeannie50• in reply to
I feel exactly the same Carneuny, agree with you 100%
belindalore• in reply to
I don't trust the drug companies either. And none of these anticoagulants are safe. You are blessed you have a good team of Drs to guide you. That makes a lot of difference. Some of us don't have that. I know someone who's husband is a Dr and still hasn't found a decent cardio Dr. Here in the USA medical care has really gone downhill because it's become profit driven instead of taking care of the patient. You're given drugs and out the door. If you have any problems the Drs say-let me know. That's how Drs treat you here. No monitoring. Really sad. I wish you the best for continued good health.
• in reply tobelindalore
I was sorry to read of the way healthcare is in your country. V sad. Even so, my experience here in Cornwall, UK, would not be typical of all NHS surgeries here. Somebody mentioned luck the other day .... my luck came from the medical team in hospital when I was first admitted, i.e., AF was identified in 9 hours from when I felt first symptoms of something wrong and treatment started. That in itself I am convinced, has made a massive difference to my AF experience, the malfunctioning electronics just didn't get the chance to create their new pathways. Shortly I shall be having an ECHO to compare the structure of my heart now compared to the first one over 10 years ago. My doctors in different parts of UK where I have lived have all had the same mindset and from that came these great relationships. For the benefit of UK readers, one of them was almost a cardboard cutout of the TV soap doctor, Doc. Martin. These men and women have been/are brilliant.I wish I could send them to you 🙂 It also helps that I am business minded and enjoy the Maths of business statistics, it means when I have a consultation I am armed with all relevant statistics, not much is anecdotal. Good luck.
belindalore• in reply to
Thank you. It seems from posts I've read here that poor health care exists everywhere. USA, the UK, France, Australia etc. It's a global epidemic of itself😞. So many people suffer needlessly in the USA from poor care because of an inept medical insurance system and Drs who aren't allowed to be Drs because of it. Insurance companies have come to rule the roost along with big pharmas and big corporations in the USA. Politics. Oh there are good Drs and people do get help but if they have the better insurance it's better care. A few Drs have had enough trying to deal with insurance companies and started what they call concierge practices. But there aren't enough of them. They charge a fee for the patient every year which covers their care. If there's catastrophic care involved then they will accept the insurance. They have less overhead not needing a large office staff to weed through all the different insurances. Don't have to wait for the insurance companies to pay on a claim. And most importantly they can spend TIME with the patient. Don't have to fight with the insurance companies for tests they believe their patients need. The insurance companies dictate how much time a dr can spend with the patient (only 15 minutes with my insurance😕), what tests they'll cover, what drugs you're allowed to take. It's really almost barbaric to a lot of us patients. It's disheartening and discouraging. And too many Drs just go along with it cause they know they'll make good money. Yes it's sad.
But I'm so happy you have found a good bunch who cares. You are blessed.
LaceyLady• in reply to
I had a pre Doc Martin, sadly now retired.
Auriculaire• in reply to
You are lucky to have that choice. My GP refused to prescribe it for me insisting that a NOAC was safer. Here in France Coumadine was very rarely prescribed even before the introduction of the NOACs. Instead you got Préviscan. I was put on this 5 years ago for a while.
solarjdo69 just gave you this reply to that question on another thread 4 hours ago in case that helps: healthunlocked.com/afassoci...
Yes thanks Kim. Saw his answer. It's nice to know he's doing well. I've been feeling better since I quit the metoprolol. There were days I didn't think I could move another step on that stuff. My appetite is better. I'm not as spacy. Still on the Eliquis but don't like how I feel on it though the side effects are more tolerable. I wish some of the Drs that prescribe this poison were made to take it themselves so they could suffer for awhile.
Hoping you are still doing well. Really good people on here. I'm glad I found this forum. I've learned so much. Take care.
I'm glad to hear you're doing well after quitting metoprolol. I am still doing well. I have used my little rescue remedy of low-sodium V8 + magnesium + 2 cups water 3-4 times now to convert myself back to NSR since I discovered that works for me. So all is good. 
Okay, the magnesium and extra water I sort of understand. I use them both to lower my incidence of afib events. I keep low sodium V8 around but only for the occasional bloody Mary. What does this combination do for you, how and when do you take it and why does it work?
Low sodium V8 is very high source of potassium. A little 5 oz can has more than 500 mg potassium. So at first sign of arrhythmia (and I don't know that it is always afib because I have no home monitor, but it is afib when I have gone to ER), I bang down one of those little cans, plus 400 mg magnesium and 2 cups water, all within the first 5 minutes of detecting arrhythmia/AF. And sometimes I add vitamin C and antihistamine, both of which have been used in hospital setting to control AF post-op in cardiac surgery patients. Histamine-based inflammation thought to be involved in AF. Before I developed this method my AF episodes were lasting 4 days with a new one starting every 3 weeks. A pretty regular cycle. I do not want to take pharmaceuticals for this, and I don't. So I was very motivated to find a natural strategy that would help me. I am hoping that with time the frequency of episodes will also decrease. But for now I am very happy to have an easy way to convert myself relatively quickly.
I've used that very rescue remedy, but with much less success than you--maybe 30 to 50% of the time, I'm successful with it. I'm so glad it converts you back to NSR!!!
You might want to try adding Vitamin C and antihistamine. I do that too sometimes. But initially I just did the V8+magnesium+water. and that seemed to work.
Thanks for the additional suggestion!
What antihistamine do you use? From your text it sounds like any one of them will do. Does that appear to be the case?
I think Benadryl may be the best. But if it's daytime i take one of the non-drowsy ones.
Yay! I will pray you continue to do well.
Before starting Apixaban I was taking nattokinase and other supplements that have a " thinning'' effect. I still had a TIA. Maybe I was not taking enough nattokinase. It is hard to get reliable info about dosage. But then the dosage recommended by the manufacturers of allopathic drugs is a "one size fits all "and takes no account of the genetic differences in metabolising drugs.
Yes that's the problem. Everyone is different which some people don't seem to understand. One size does not fit all and some Drs don't even know that....... They just go along with whatever the pharmas say. Proves to me some Drs just don't care. Dr Wolfson in Arizona is a holistic cardiologist and has products for Afib. And he seems to have helped a lot of people. He checks EVERYTHING to see if you're deficient but sadly he's high dollar ( doesn't take insurance cause insurance doesn't pay for natural treatments) so no way I could ever see him. I believe he's good at what he does and his supplements but I'm iffy on whether I should try the nattokinase. Bad as I feel on the Eliquis I take..... Can't rely on these Drs who don't even test for deficiencies. 😒
Should be mandatory that all Drs do drug trials
That's a good idea. Put them through some of the hell we go through. 😡 Long as they don't get slipped the placebo.
Thank you for raising the point. I am as grateful to those looking at 'natural alternatives' as I am to doctors prescribing pills; unfortunately the latter nearly always takes priority. The future is surely Functional holistic medicine and until I find the right doctor I have to consult two or three practitioners (my GP, Naturopath & Nutrionist plus the excellent advice on this Forum) and try and weld their advice together to treat myself.
You are blessed and lucky you also have a naturopath and nutritionist. Some of us can't afford those.
Thank you, very interesting reading.
The hospital put me straight on 7mg Bisoprolol and 30mg Apixaban on a Saturday by Monday Bp was through the floor, dizzy, numbness in my arm, back to hospital, over dosed! My consultant I pay privately nearly lose his eye into his hair line! I don’t need anticoagulants as he said I’m more at risk from them at the moment. Not liking the medication, Bisoprolol & Flecainaide as I don’t seem to tolerate it brilliantly, keep on the lowest doses and only if I have an episode but will reduce after a few days. I have a magnesium spray, started to have pineapple for potassium but take the V8 tip 👍🏻 Try to keep getter hydrated.
Thank you. I'm not the only one super sensitive to these meds. Some people who do well on these meds with little or no side effects don't understand the hell some of us go through. Just trying to deal with the side effects causes more stress, at least for me. And that sure isn't good.
By the way was that hospital trying to do you in! 30mg apixaban (same as Eliquis .I take only 2.5 mg 2x a day and I feel like an alien is in my body) is something I've never heard of anyone taking. Here if you are on the thin side as far as weight it's the 2.5 mg and heavier people 5mg 2x a day. I think 30 mg would have been too much for an elephant. Good gosh!
I agree important to stay hydrated. I've heard some people use the magnesium spray. If you can get a copy get the book "The Paleo Cardiologist". Dr Wolfson is a holistic cardiologist in Arizona in the USA here. I believe he's good at what he does but too high dollar for me and since he uses natural treatments insurance doesn't cover that. He gives good advice in his book. If I could afford him I would fly to Arizona tomorrow. Shame there aren't more like him. Wishing you the best.
Nope think I made a mistake it was Eliquis 2.5 but I was on something with a 20/30mg 🙄
You must have had a bad reaction to something. Good you caught it and got help! Whole list of other meds and some supplements you can't take with these anticoagulants. Scary. Check out drugs.com. lists side effects and drug interactions of all this poison. People also post on there now they experience this stuff. Sad. Take care.
Are you still taking the Eliquis?
No on an anticoagulant as yet, Consultant said when I'm 65 I'll need to be, but what concerns me is, I can bleed already without being on one! I do take fish oil with plant sterol supplement but mum used to bleed too, mind she had rhumatoid arthritis and would take asprin. But I wonder if my family does have a tendancy to bleed.
Ye, I do get allergic reactions, last time was November 2019, I'd had a partial knee replacement and told consultant surgeon and the anaethetist I'm allergic to those thick fabric plasters but they still stuck on one that was the same, result massive skin reaction 5" by 25"!! Took over 6 weeks with betnovate cream to go!!
Oh my. I have read there are other bleeding disorders other than hemophilia that we hear about. And the Drs haven't tested you to see what it could be? If not that's just negligence to me. Same as when the idiots put that plaster on you AFTER you told them you were allergic. That would have been a lawsuit. I just cannot understand these Drs and other people who work in healthcare who don't WANT TO LISTEN to us patients. They used to. Well like I and others believe big pharma and the insurance companies rule over everything. God forbid the Drs don't follow insurance and pharma guidelines. They might get a reprimand. Healthcare is just so messed up anymore.
Fish oil will thin the blood. But you know that. Don't let those crazies try and put you back on Eliquis or anything else. They need to find out what causes you to bleed so easy. Good gosh!!!! Take care.
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Thank you all. 
