I've been on ADT for coming on two years and have suffered massive upper body mass and strength. Will machine or hand weight, band or body weight exercise bring it back or only stop it from getting worse? What are any rules to observe, how to start and when to increase weight?
Is muscle gain possible?: I've been on... - Advanced Prostate...
Is muscle gain possible?
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Wgly
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I have dietitians from MO office and also cover by insurance. I have good results from her diet as well. I am on 60G protein 30g in morning and 30g in night.
it depends on two factors in my opinion: when you start (better start before testosterone is gone) and your initial shape. Personally I was lifting heavy 3 times per week before being diagnosed and adt/chemo, and I started quite young so I was quite fit. Let’s say that I can only lose or keep, not increase. And I verify it with the maximum weights I can lift now. For the first months of adt and chemo there was no change. Then I have gradually lost a bit more than 20% of max explosive strength, all in the first 4-6 month then it stopped (hopefully for a long time). But strength and hypertrophy are not the only things to look for or the only reasons to train.
My experience is similar to Maxone73. For a month or two the muscle decline wasn't so bad. I could pretty much lift as much weight and do as many reps as usual with the main change is that I was feeling pain in my articulations such as elbows and shoulders.
But there is a gradual decline afterwards. I had regained a decent muscular bulk in my 13 months of ADT vacation but after being back on ADT for about 4 months, I no longer look like someone who goes to the gym even though I am training the same as before.
Like Maxone73, I too had been a regular at the gym before my Dx. I've tried really hard to keep my weights the same but they have declined. I have now stopped ADT 6 weeks ago and am looking forward to some gains.
One of the hardest things for me has been recovery from knee replacement. Before the surgery in Feb, I was hitting the lower body machines hard for the exercises I could tolerate. Once PT started, the gains have been frustratingly slow. I blame lack of T. There's no pain anymore but I just can't get leg extensions and squats anywhere close to normal.
I wasn't resistance training prior to treatment but was in reasonable shape from tennis and hiking. After joining this group I learnt the importance of resistance training as part of the treatment. Working with a PT for 2 and years now while on ADT I have managed to keep making small but satisfying gains in strength. I tell myself that the prednisone must be helping!
I do weight lifting and jogging. Lifting every second day, running daily around 12-13km. With this I keep my muscles in the trained areas. But every muscle you don’t train will get weaker. That’s the price we pay.
I think the most important part is just to do what you can the best you can. Your body has changed and there is a new standard now. But if you’re doing it, you’re helping yourself. I wish you the best.
You can absolutely build muscle on ADT, but it takes considerable effort. We are old to begin with, and how that effects our ability to build and keep muscle is an important factor some of us forget, oddly. Strength and conditioning decline after 40-50, then by 65-70 at an accelerated rate. ADT is just gas on that fire.
Damn the torpedoes! I believe we thrive when we simply give lifting the consistent attention we must, compare ourselves to no one (particularly our younger self) and enjoy it-at least for the results. Managing expectations does wonders. Get a trainer if you have any doubts about what to do, how much, how often etc.
Being strong and fit is the only way to get old. Don’t outlive your good years, extend them!
Well said!!
Hi London, I appreciate your Posts.
I totally agree with having to work out and stay active as you can.
I started ADT when I was 52 and I turn 60 in a a couple of months. I noticed a serious change in my body composition in the last year. But I haven’t been able to work out like I wanted. Been doing chemo for 10 months. Really lost the energy I used to have. Is there something you can take to give you extra energy to get a workout.
I literally have been over treated at this point so taking another drug to fight back couldn’t hurt.
The Oncologist don’t consider this as they don’t think you have much time left and they couldn’t be bothered.
I go through life like I don’t have this disease. I literally get treatment and go back to work after a few days.
I understand. There are a number of options to give you that ‘extra energy’ you seek, but it’s my belief that more movement simply begets more movement, and vice versa. Sure you can try energy drinks or even amphetamines, but it’s risky, sometimes dangerous, and always inferior to just getting going.
At my most challenged on ADT I would take the approach I liked as a competitive distance runner in my youth. When I wasn’t feeling up to a training run, I would simply get dressed to run. Still refusing, I went for a slow stroll, and I mean slow. Pace would naturally increase and inevitably bang, I’d be running.
It still works for me today. When I feel too tired to exercise, maybe I really do need a break. But most of the time I just need to start moving. If it’s time for me to exercise, the very last thing I do is lie down instead. If I do I get a unrefreshing nap at best. If I take a slow walk or easy bike ride, it almost always leads to where I intended. Then the nap can be a sweet reward.
As the great Dr Mark Moyad likes to say, you’re only a workout away from having a good day💯
I am pondering whether to add creatine to the list of supplements I take. I am 74. I am on dutasteride, which isn't as bad as 'full ADT'. I hit the gym 3x a week and lift. Anyone else take creatine? It is supposed to be good for muscle maintenance for old people.
"... on ADT for coming on two years and have suffered massive upper body mass and strength. Will machine or hand weight, band or body weight exercise bring it back or only stop it from getting worse?"
I think it can do both, depending on how much exercise.
I am almost 82 and was not sedentary but did no exercise. After 3 months of ADT and Abiraterone I did not feel weak, but I began exercise for fear of muscle and bone loss. After 3 months of almost daily exercise on 9 machines, I must keep increasing the weights to make a muscle tired at the end of a set.
So 9 machines, with a set of 30 full motion repetitions on each, 10 reps at a time, with a 30-second rest in between, plus changing and setting up machines, takes about 45 minutes. It is a commitment of time and effort, but is important for quality of life on the pills.
I’m a bit younger than you (74) and been on ADT treatment for several years. Just under a year ago I began working with a personal trainer and have successfully turned my mush into muscle. You probably should consult your physician before embarking on vigorous exercise. Don’t give up.
Hello Wigley,
I’m 59 and have been on Xtandi/Lupron for 90 months. I’m a big boned guy, was 200 when diagnosed but I had always gone to the gym plus road biking hard, like 50-100 mile rides.
Now I’m 265 and still consistently going to the gym and lifting fairly hard and cardio plus stretching. I’ve been pushing really hard since January
I was told we cannot build muscle but..
I’ve been really keeping my protein up, even going as far as using protein powder (isolate). 2 sets of around 10 of all upper body muscles concentrating on shoulders and incline bench to round out my pecks to improve my horrible moobs. Also lower body both leg curls and very light squats, also stomach curls for abs.
All that to say as I look in the mirror I see progress. I’m slightly bigger and I see muscle development. I even have traps now because I do mad shoulder shrugs.
I see muscle increases even though I was told it would not happen. My spare tire is ridiculous and I am carrying a lot of fat and blubber, looking at me you would never know I lift and exercise. That part sucks.
But I’m a warrior. This is a battle and it’s tough but I’m proud of myself. Three times they gave me x number of months. And here I am.
Can we build muscle on ADT? I say yes!
Fantastic 👍
I'm 61 now and was on ADT (Lupron) for 21 months (from March 2021 till December 2023 when my T started recovery) before vacation. For many years before and during ADT I kept my cycling routine riding 150 mi/week on average.
I started serious variable resistance training after discovering X3 Bar and followed suggested 12-week program very late into my ADT since September 2023. After 3 months I gained lean mass and dropped fat so yes, its very much possible.
Body composition changes while on ADT and using X3 Bar routine
Resistance exercises are mandatory to protect against muscle loss. Depending on your shape to begin with you will lose or gain muscles but without exercise you will have muscle and bone loss.
Some really good advice and the only thing I will add is this. Doing resistance training not only helps with muscle but it helps with osteoporosis.Fall avoidance at our age is critical.
Besides resistance I do a very simple exercise to improve balance. If you have steps in your house or buy a set of platforms I do one leg at a time and balance myself on the other leg. In the beginning you may need to balance near some support. This will not be easy but it will pay off in the end. Leg muscles are critical for balance as we get older.
Good luck and stop back with questions as you progress with your training.
I like your balance suggestion!
I can only speak for myself. I lost muscle mass everywhere and have been in ADT for 12 yrs. but having been playing Pickleball on almost a daily basis now for 6 months and noticed my calve muscles are “cut” for the first time since shortly after treatment began. I also know my other leg muscles have gotten stronger too. Now, I have to work on my upper body.
I was slowly losing strength but kept it up from chores and walking. Come this spring, 2 solid months of high wind, extreme heat and unhealthy pollution, followed since with more heat. Killed my walks and yard work. Suddenly realized weakness in my arms and back to the point of avoiding lifting. I knew about this, but didn’t know it could come so fast. Getting MRI and PMSA scans next week to see if there is any other cause.
Pending that, the very useful experiences show here, that strength exercises are worth a try if I can avoid injuring myself
I'm 78 and had not exercised in years so muscle loss preceded starting ADT in November 2023. I'm am happy to report that I started 3 days a week using machines at Chuze Fitness, alternating uppers one day and lowers the next day has added to my muscle mass. It has also improved my posture. I do 3 sets of 10-15 reps of each machine. Starting a weight that doesn't hurt 3 sets of 10 reps and adding reps when I can without injury and then adding 5 lbs and restarting the reps at 10 are and repeating the process. I love this side effect of a PC treatment.
Yes, you can can muscle. I've gained strength (lifting weights) and hence muscle during the ~ 1.5 years on ADT. Adequate protein (1 g per pound of bodyweight per day) and consistent weight training (even body weight training like push ups, bodyweight squats), adequate sleep and rest, hydration, etc.
For a method that works (I can attest) get and read the book “Body by Science” then implement his Big Five workout once a week ( no more but very intense) with machines preferably for safety and ideally with a good trainer.
I started abiraterone and Lupron at age 67. I had never lifted weights. I had done 2 Ironman and several marathons so I was very fit but my upper body was not very strong. I started lifting weights twice a week with the first dose. Initially I seemed to gain a little strength but after that my strength did not change. Then I stopped the meds last January and my testosterone went to 240 at 3 months. I continued to lift weights. My strength improved dramatically. I did notice one other problem when in the meds. It turns out testosterone is needed to maintain mitochondrial health. My muscles lost endurance. I could stay with the group on a hill but when we got to the top I had to rest. My hemoglobin A1c also increased a bit to 5.7. It all went away when I stopped the meds. Crossing my fingers it won’t come back.
Great questions! Not definitive but here is my experience. You did not mention how often you did resistance training. When on Lupron and undergoing radiation and four months prior to starting the treatment I went to the gym everyday and walked.
I was in reasonable shape and while on ADT I was able to lose 12 pounds with diet and exercise. I was able to very slowly maintain and gain some muscle shape and strength. Once my T started to increase I really notice a huge difference from the same routine.
It had been a lifetime since doing competitive sports at the collegiate level so I started with machines and light weights. Almost sissy level! I lacked stamina and needed to do light weights rather be a hero and hurt myself.
I have since moved to free weights. I do a simple routine of arms, chest, back and legs. It takes me about 30 minutes. Once again I use light level of weights. My suggestion is to experiment at a lower weight level and find a weight for each exercise that you can do 8 to 10 reps at 3 sets. Add weight slowly.
Foe example just last week I added 10 pounds to my bench press and had to reduce my normal 4 sets at 10 reps to only 3 sets at 10 reps. So you can see how a small amount of weight had a huge impact.
The good news is I could really feel the difference in my chest muscles. I will stay at that weight for about 2 weeks and then slowly add a fourth set at whatever my muscles can handle.
If you take longer breaks between sets you will be able to do more but I experiment with the time between sets to achieve the 10 reps.
I think I answered your questions but feel free to ask any more and good luck with your trial and error method.
PS We are very close in age.
I see you are 84. There are some good books for older folks on training with resistance bands. One thing not mentioned in answers so far is a form of resistance training focused on the upper body. Typically abbreviated as UBE, for upper body ergometer. Many commercial gyms do not have this. They are usually large machines when present. My personal experience was during a long recovery from ruptured Achilles tendon. Like many exercises, you need to start gradually, low resistance, and short duration.
The dual benefit is that once you increase your duration, you get some cardio out of this exercise too. Think of it as 'spinning' for the upper body. Rowers love this exercise. I think it was even mentioned in 'Lessons In Chemistry.' A fun book if you need some entertainment and inspiration.
I'm not here to pitch exercise equipment but I'm currently using my home version of the UBE which is a dual purpose pedaling system called Magnetrainer. Not all desk pedalers are capable of being set up at the right height with attachments for upper body workout. I've had to depend on this machine many times over the last 10 years to fill in gaps in my workouts, especially when I've injured my lower body. It works, and it pulls on a wide variety of muscles, unlike many resistance exercises mentioned here.
Good luck on recovering muscle mass. 😀
I've been on ADT (Zoladex + Nubeqa) for almost 2 years now, and I really haven't lost any muscle. I'm actually gaining strength, so I might actually be increasing my lean mass (tough to tell). But I've been working out twice per week for years (even did during chemo), so my body's probably more accustomed to holding muscle mass than someone who's just starting out with resistance training.
I'm fairly liberal with my protein intake, although I don't overdo it as one of my kidneys was pretty damaged by PCa. I use a couple servings of whey and plant-based protein daily, along with a reasonable serving of some meat or fish. I think this is critical to avoid muscle loss with low testosterone.
I've found a pre-workout product really helps overcome the ADT fatigue and push the intensity of my training sessions, and my favorite is C4 Ultimate. Just work up to a full serving of this stuff over time, as it could make you feel like you're gonna die if you go with a full serving the first time out!
Holding steady
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