Can someone have PC not show up in prostate gland on CT scan (get microsized) just with ADT (or orchietomy)?

UPDATE: Since this guy has his results online, I checked and he did a biopsy in march 2020 showing PC on 7 cores. My question was if ADT or orchietomy could make PC disappear from SCAN, so reduce it enormously in size, so that on scan you only see calcification.

I will follow his story to see.

Hello! I found a french guy online that did lots of fastening (really long ones) and eats very little. He had very advanced PC with bone mets and lymph node involvement. He began with Firmagon + zytiga after diagnosis september 2018, did orchietomy february 2019 (could not stand firmagon shot pain), stopped Zytiga august 2019. today he has got his CT scan results:

The link does not work but I put it just under as reply, have a look.

I don't read about any cancer on prostate (only calcifications) and metastasis stable.

Is this possible just with orchietomy?

Or can it be that the cancer of the prostate does not show up on such a CT scan?

[Hidden]

youtube.com/watch?v=cBKKWQE...(Not working as expected?) here the link

He has all under youtube "Cancer Therapy"

[LearnAll in reply to Hidden]

some people can have a very long lasting deep remission like 15 to 20 years. By the time, they die of some other medical disease....as so do the tall and short naysayers too die in that long span of time. You will see tiny specks of cancer cells in their autopsy .

Meaning of cure IMO is very very long remission....because everyone dies by time they are 100..... Pca or No Pca...mets or no mets. Death is inevitable.....no matter what.

[Hidden in reply to LearnAll]

I agree, but never heard of prostate cancer in prostate disappearing just with orchietomy, did you?

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

he is attributing that to his diet and fastening and supplement protocol...

[LearnAll in reply to Hidden]

Rarely..miraculous things do happen BUT it is hard to substantiate such claims. Like a Yogi who could live without water and food for 10 days....the military put him in a chamber and video recorded him for full 10 days. They found it true. The explanation given was that the Yogi's body has some unusual capacity to produce water inside by available Hydrogen and Oxygen inside his body.. Such events are very rare.

[Northcaptain in reply to LearnAll]

hello i did a 5 day fasting without water and food and could go to more ... Everybody told people that 3 minutes without oxygen, 3 days without water and 30 days without food and you are dead. this is not true. Every month i do a 3-4 day fasting and i start with a 2 days without water, it helps accelerate the acidose crisis to just 24 hours.

In an emergency situation i could surely (and everybody of you also) walk for 5 days without food and water. this is built in resiliency of the magical human body.

[j-o-h-n in reply to LearnAll]

As the saying goes :"Death is God's way of telling you the show is over".

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 07/18/2020 12:47 PM DST

[monte1111 in reply to j-o-h-n]

"Encore, encore!"

[j-o-h-n in reply to monte1111]

Sorry not even a curtain call............or when the fat lady sings...

Hey Harry 'GET THE HOOK and the pillow'........we got another stubborn breather.............

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 07/18/2020 5:01 PM DST

[monte1111 in reply to j-o-h-n]

Our humor is a little dark today? If it's Captain Hook and a MyPillow......maybe.

[j-o-h-n in reply to monte1111]

Dark? Just par for the course... Not Captain Hook, he's too busy trying to pick his nose and Michael Lindell is busy counting his money....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 07/18/2020 6:24 PM DST

[j-o-h-n in reply to j-o-h-n]

A little lighter (semi-dark).

BTW I forgot to mention that the Washington Redskins are keeping their name but changing their logo from an Indian to a potato.....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 07/18/2020 6:28 PM DST

[monte1111 in reply to j-o-h-n]

I know potato salad when I see it.

[j-o-h-n in reply to monte1111]

And you were raised on a farm..... and I'm supposed to be the city slicker........

Potato!!!

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 07/18/2020 8:03 PM DST

[Hidden in reply to j-o-h-n]

😂😂😂

[Tall_Allen]

ADT hasn't been found to cure men with APC, but it may enable them to live a long time with the disease. There are miraculous remissions, however. Yes, it is certainly possible to have micrometastases that do not show up on a bone scan/CT that nonetheless progresses (e.g., "non-metastatic castration-resistant PC") I stick to peer-reviewed publications. Anyone can post anything on youtube with regard to truth.

[Hidden in reply to Tall_Allen]

ok, but is it possible that the cancer in the prostate disappears only with orchietomy? Did you ever know one such case?

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

I know of metastasis that disappear for the period ADT works, but didn't know of the main cancer disappear with ADT or orchietomy.

[addicted2cycling in reply to Hidden]

Didn't disappear with my ORCHIECTOMY !!!

But sure made my BICYCLING MORE ENJOYABLE ;0)

[Hidden in reply to addicted2cycling]

🏋🏻‍♂️🤙🏽

[treedown in reply to addicted2cycling]

Found a bit more room in my cycling shorts just from ADT.

[addicted2cycling in reply to treedown]

treedown wrote >>> " Found a bit more room in my cycling shorts just from ADT"

I had to go to SMALL SHORTS from XL --- IMMEDIATELY following the orchiectomy!!! ;0)

[j-o-h-n in reply to addicted2cycling]

Ah...I get it, cause you're using a girls bike now?👀

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 07/18/2020 12:52 PM DST

[addicted2cycling in reply to j-o-h-n]

Was thinking I now ride a Gender Neutral or NEUTERED-AL bike

[j-o-h-n in reply to addicted2cycling]

LOL.... geez I forgot that I'm Gender Neutral now.... thanks for reminding me....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 07/18/2020 1:57 PM DST

[SPEEDYX in reply to j-o-h-n]

Didnt the Schwinn orange krate have a shifter with a neutral.😄

[j-o-h-n in reply to SPEEDYX]

Yep and a manual bell.......which needed some assembing, by a mechanical engineer....

youtube.com/watch?v=J2uqwqH...(Not working as expected?)

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 07/18/2020 4:51 PM DST

[RICH22 in reply to addicted2cycling]

watched a Netflix standup last night, woman had to be over 300lbs, and almost all fat-humor... but fookin hilarious! "I don't ride a bike... I'm an adult, I drive a car" Urzila Carson

[Tall_Allen in reply to Hidden]

There is a trial to see whether ADT can extend time on active surveillance. Resistance to ADT increases with grade, time, and metastases.

[maley2711 in reply to Hidden]

This is why Docs rely on peer-reviewed studies !! And none show such an expected outcome!! Anecdotes don't equal proof!! There are a few very obese folks who live VERY long lives. But obesity isn't associated with a longer life!!

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

No it doesn't disappear wth an Orchiectomy.

If his cancer was not confined to the prostate gland, he will eventually become castrate resistant and require additional treatment. That can take a long time though. Many people with prostate cancer are able to claim success with alternative treatments simply because they can often do nothing and the cancer is very slow growing in many cases. They can also say that because I do this, and I don't have that, the two must be related, Correlation and causation are not the same. This is why we need to stick with proven treatments.

I am always skeptical about claims people make with regards to alternative treatments, supplements, diets etc. especially when their results go against scientific findings.

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." Abraham Lincoln

[GodsDog in reply to Hidden]

I’m on naturopathic regimen in addition to ADT and soon, radiation. Even my naturopath would not claim that naturopathy can cure the cancer, he sees it as supporting the primary therapy, creating an environment less hospitable to PC. It supports around the margins, and can reduce side effects.

[RICH22 in reply to GodsDog]

THAT makes perfect sense to me.

[RICH22 in reply to Hidden]

yep, i remember my uncle Abe saying that. He was in the High Diving Board event in the Olympics game in Transylvania at the time... came in 2nd to the Easter Bunny.

[Hidden]

Anything is possible.. Even “radical remissions. “ A great book to read . An orchiectomy will stop 85% of t production. The adrenal produces the other 15%. I did IMRT then an orch and I’ve been in remission for over four years now . I’m still on a pill form adt to stop adrenal t...my Mo and even my nat dr say not to stop the adt ?

[RICH22 in reply to Hidden]

Just passed 2 year mark on casodex, finasteride and tamsulosin, with PSA <0.1 -- this has been the ONLY thing i've done after dx by in-bore 3T mpMRI guided biopsy. GL 4+3 in 60% of all samples from only 12 cores. Original MRIs detected 2 leasions but read badly, by inexperienced uro radiologist. Only 1 lesion was cancerous.

No chemo, no radiation, just 3 pills/day. T level was over 400, but down to ~250. Casodex prevents PCa from using T, so I'm not doing Lupron. Recently my uro-onc told me that the casodex prevents ANY of my body from utilizing T... but as much as I respect his medical knowledge, I just don't buy it. There is way too much "anedotal" evidence for it to remain anecdotal, about all kinds of phenomena that cause doctors in ALL specialties to go off muttering and scratching their bald heads.

A possible mitigating factor could be the revlimid chemo i take for bone marrow cancer... although the same uro-onc has denied even a remote possibility. I'd have to agree with him on that. He's Indian and also denies that turmeric, ginger and black pepper have any effect on reducing PCa... but before my biopsy, I was able to bring my PSA down from ~17 to 14.6. That's when I got a bit antsy, not trusting the rate of improvement.

[Hidden]

Would that not be wonderful!

[Hidden]

So how to explain that his prostate cancer does not show up in the CT? Maybe the type of exam (CT Chest + Abdomen + Pelvis W/ Contrast)?

[tango65 in reply to Hidden]

Even the best multiparametric MRI can miss significant prostate cancer. The same for the PSMA PET/CTs (Ga68 and 18F DCFPyl), considered the most sensitive imaging techniques. The PET/CTs do not detect anything smaller than 4 mm. Transrectal ultrasound can miss 10% or more of prostate cancers.

[Currumpaw in reply to tango65]

Hey tango65!

The MRI? Depends on the model and manufacturer, the technician, who reads the MRI and sometimes the location.

Several years ago I read that Beth Israel Deaconess used a GE unit, not the latest or greatest but it yielded a 90 % plus success rate in detecting prostate cancers verified by pathology results. A rectal probe was used in conjunction with the MRI --sort of like an antenna.

Currumpaw

[Hidden in reply to Currumpaw]

Absolutely correct!

A rectal coil gets as close as anything can get to the prostate. The pick-up signal from the prostate region is the highest achievable for the magnetic flux class of the machine. With the new 6.5T and 13T (in beta testing) magnets the usual set of abdomen coils will probably bridge this gap.

[addicted2cycling in reply to Currumpaw]

C-paw wrote >>> " ... A rectal probe was used ... "

So it was "UP POOP-SHOOT???"

OOPS, sorry, wrong local, guess I was thinking nautical as in "UP PERISCOPE"

[Currumpaw in reply to addicted2cycling]

Hey addicted2cycling!

Yep! But since it is a 3.0 rather than a 1.5 it should only last about 25 to 30 minutes rather the the 50 minutes to an hour the 1.5 MRI takes. Thanks to whatever diety is in your life.

Diety? Ahh for the days of Mariska Veres Shocking us --Blue!

The first stanza.

"A goddess on the mountain top

Burning like a silver flame

The summit of beauty and love

And Venus was her name"

Currumpaw

[RICH22 in reply to Currumpaw]

youtube.com/watch?v=GvRMRwd...(Not working as expected?)

[Currumpaw in reply to RICH22]

Thank you!

[tango65 in reply to Currumpaw]

That is correct but the sensitivity of the best mpMRI is 90%. They can miss 10% of significant cancers and even more of low grade cancers.

[TJGuy in reply to tango65]

The most sensitive scans in the Netherlands can detect 2mm.

[tango65 in reply to TJGuy]

That is correct but the technique can only detect metastases in lymph nodes. The MRI con nano ferromagnetic particles, (Combidex )detects 2 mm metastases in lymph nodes only. It would not detect anything in the prostate , bones, muscles or any organ.

[Currumpaw in reply to TJGuy]

Hey TJGuy!

This Doc--

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Imaging in prostate cancer: Role of MRI to expand in the ...

uroweb.org/imaging-in-prost......

“MP-MRI will play an important role in guiding both biopsy as well as focal therapy,” said radiologist Dr. Jurgen Futterer of the Radboud UMC in Nijmegen (NL). Futterer will lecture during the upcoming 4th Meeting of the EAU Section of Urological Imaging (ESUI) on November 12 in Barcelona, Spain.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

I believe he read a friend's MRI for him.

Currumpaw

[TJGuy in reply to Currumpaw]

Thanks for the article.

[noahware]

Remember, the micro-resolution of many scans are quite limited. It is quite possible that the largest pockets of cancer have regressed, and no longer easily visible. But imagine that the prostate is removed and thoroughly analyzed, or that bones themselves are biopsied rather than merely scanned. Will cancer cells be found? Most likely. Perhaps it is possible in rare cases that cancer is GONE gone, but usually it is just sleeping (if not creeping) in micro-form. But that sure beats being clinically significant!

[Hidden in reply to noahware]

So you think somebody that did not have RP nor radiation could have his stage 4 prostate cancer reduced to micro-metastasis only also in the prostate?

[noahware in reply to Hidden]

Sure, radical remission is possible... but how often? I expect it is rather rare, and seems not always to have a good explanation.

So suppose this man has a total disappearance of cancer. The problem for us, is 1) we don't know for sure which aspect(s) of his treatment caused that result, and 2) we don't know for sure which aspect(s) of his treatment might give us similar results.

[Currumpaw in reply to noahware]

Hey noahware!

In my reply to Tango above I mentioned Beth Israel deaconess verifying MRI results by pathology.

Post prostatectomy surgery is usually followed by pathology to verify the Gleason grade and confinement within the capsule and a few other things--.

Currumpaw

[noahware in reply to Currumpaw]

Yeah, but it is surely a lot easier to find cancer FOR SURE if you take the prostate out of the body and dice the hell out of it. Even if the best MRI is 99% good, that could theoretically leave the 1% who miraculously are thought to have no cancer but really do have a little.

I find it very interesting that as far back as the 1930s, thorough autopsies on "healthy" men with zero signs of cancer often found significant amounts of (indolent?) PC in the prostates (and bones!) of dead men, as young as in their thirties. That was a really good indication of how much more common and slow-growing and non-lethal that PC could be.

[Zetabow]

The scan results don't show the hospital or Dr and is in English, why does a Frenchman have his results in English?

I would be suspicious of these claims. A lot of people prey on our vulnerable emotions with false hopes.

[Hidden in reply to Zetabow]

You are right to be careful, he lives in Miami and has all his results online:

documentcloud.adobe.com/lin...

[Currumpaw in reply to Hidden]

Hey Myriammole!

Another interesting fellow on YouTube is Vern "Vito" Johnston" of "The pH Kills Cancer Protocol".

Be careful on the net. Is the gentleman who is cured mentioned by a government entity such as the NIH?

Currumpaw

[Hidden in reply to Currumpaw]

The difference is that Vito died already some years ago. This guy is not cured, just found his results with only orchietomy amazing and was wondering if his persistent long fast did aid or not.

[Currumpaw in reply to Hidden]

Hey Miriammole!

The fast may help. Intermittent fasting is something that has been said to be helpful. Diet changes may be more of a factor.

I first heard of orchiectomies used to extend prostate cancer survivor's lives in the early 1990's. A friend's father's doctor suggested orchiectomy. His father asked what it meant. When explained to him his response was, "The hell you are!"

As you noted, achieving stability is not to be denigrated.

Currumpaw

[Hidden]

So you think somebody that did not have RP nor radiation could have his stage 4 prostate cancer reduced to micro-metastasis only, also in the prostate? I just checked, he did a biopsy in march 2020 where PC shows up in 7 cores.

[dmt1121]

I agree with Tall Allen. It is best to stick with peer reviewed studies and articles. Even if possible, it is a very unique outcome and unlikely to be repeated with others. Everyone's situation and cancer is different. The difference is not always apparent from scans, nor is whether the cancer is systematic at a micro-cell level. However, if it extends life, it is worth investigating through medical journals and discussions with your MO.

Stay well.

[RustyMan]

His psa level has dropped quite low so his prostate showing up heterogenous with calcified nodule sounds consistent...

[Hidden]

The simple answer is no in regards to cure. Once cancer cells escape from the prostate they will enter he lymphatic and vascular systems to divide and grow. ADT will not kill these mutant cells. The escaping cells may be unseen (micro-metastasic) or seen (metastatic). However, they are there none the less. Their becomes clearer once a person understand how ADT works.

Long-term remission is possible, however eventually the cancers will land and start multiplying.

Gourd Dancer

[TJGuy in reply to Hidden]

Work going on a University of Texas Arlington to develop a underskin "cancer trap" aka Roach Motel. Would remove/ kill these circulating cancer cells before the could spread metastasis.

[Hidden in reply to TJGuy]

Worthy project, however, CTC can be seen and micro-metastasis can not be seen....

GD

[j-o-h-n in reply to Hidden]

Ditto..... unfortunately...........

youtube.com/watch?v=vZaSGSr...(Not working as expected?)

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 07/18/2020 12:57 PM DST

[RICH22]

i blame it all on them mito chondria from Mars! Go back where you came from, ya illegal aliens!

[Hidden]

Yes, you are right. There is little knowledge and treatments are barbaric. That's why we are here, trying in more or less empirical ways, discussing personal experiences and the one of others, reading research.... hoping ....

[DavidDundas]

A choline PET/CT scan shows where there are areas of high metabolic activity, they don't always indicate the presence of prostate cancer or any other cancer. For example, it can indicate a granuloma. To detect PC you need a Ga68 PSMA/PET CT scan because the Ga68 isotope is attached to the prostate specific membrane antigen (PSMA) which seeks out prostate tissue and binds to it, then the Ga68 which is radioactive with a short half life, shows up in the PET scan. The CT part helps to show where everything is located.

[Hidden in reply to DavidDundas]

Not sure if with a PSA at almost zero PSMA PET CT shows something

[RICH22]

Paradoxical, so close to an ultimate cure while so far away from fully understanding it.

[RICH22]

i'm not "waiting" for anything, BCR or otherwise. but i'm not risking "burn or poison" either if i don't have to. There are a few oncs that feel ADT, especially casodex, actually kills cancer, if senescence goes on long enough. I'm with them. The only SE is ED, which at age 73, i can live with. Should some poor woman actually risk living with me, i'll see if my priorities change.