Latest outcome from Lu177 treatments

[Patrick-Turner]

Hi All, I began Lu177 treatments last 4 November, and have had 3 infusions so far. Psa was 25 when I began, it went to 17 after No 2, and now its 5.0 after treatment no 3, and I am booked for a No 6 on 26 April, so 3 weeks away. Side effects have been slight dry mouth for a week after each infusion, and some bone aches after No 1 and 2 at bone mets sites for a week after. Doctors are well pleased with my progress and say 4 treatments will be effective for a long time. To make the next and last treatment more effective, I docs put me on Xtandi, enzalutamide because it makes the tumours express more PsMa avidity so that more Lu177 gathers where the Pca is active. I welcome their expertise to supercharge the Lu177. So far, no side effects from Enza Lootamide. After all this atomic warfare, there is time to get tested for Brca-2 gene which could show I'd get a benefit from PARP inhibitors, and immune therapy similar to what is used for breast cancer patients. I had no brothers, but had two sisters, one died from Oa, other survived after double mastectomy. My father's mother died maybe from Oa and dad dies from melanoma, so plenty cancer in my family on my fathers side of family. Mum lived to 98, old age just slowly crept up and she just feebled out, no major cancers. It seems family history is important.

But I am nearly 72, and a right hip has stopped me cycling the regular 220km a week before February for last 13 years. Could be arthritis, but two bone mets near joint have given hip two problems hence inflammation and pains there, so I had 20Grey EBERT to the area to help kill the bone mets, and maybe it all settles down and despite a bit of arthritis I've had for 20years I might cycle again, and be able to walk a bit better than right now.

But one sister needed both hips replaced, gave her new lease on life, like my two knee joints did in Feb 2017, so I just have poor bone genetics like so many others. It didn't stop me working 30 years in building trades - I had so much enthusiasm to stay well clear of office work.

So I could say I have had a good news week. But Lady Fate thought that was too good, so yesterday she arranged for a No 3 molar to crumble to bits, so now I have to catch a bus to city and get a fix, maybe filling repair, but dentist is The Most best dentist of any I have ever had, slightly more expensive than others because city rents are high. Worth every cent.

Life will go on, and seeing Psa tumble to 5.0 means it might take a long time before it comes back up again, which is highly likely. so I can see the extra couple of good years ahead, after that, Hoo Noze ?

There's a Federal election here soon. Labor, ( like US Democrats ) has promised extra $2.3 billion funding for MRIs and many scans for cancer treatments which is very welcome. Its about $100 for each person in Oz, but a huge amount per person getting cancer who are the minority. Our country of 24 million souls can well afford it. Liberals ( like US Republicans ) promised tax cuts for the rich and $75 one off payment to those paying for our high average yearly electricity bills, maybe $2000+. $75 is peanuts.

I've had 5 PsMa scans so far, that was $3,500, plus a huge pile of other out of pocket expenses not covered by our wonderful Medicare, and not so hot private health insurance that excludes so many things. Well, if we can pay the medical bills more easily, we can better afford the electricity, so I know Labor has a chance of winning.

Patrick Turner.

[Jbooml]

Oy Patrick....quite a bundle of news indeed. It seems like my fathers family there's a plenitude of the same kind of cancers in yours it seems. I've got traces of skin cancer which i must admit is likely largely accounted to through my complete disregard to lord UV. My sissy lives down under...i'm in Canada being like you treated for an unhealthy burden of mets which i must happily confess has been quite cooperative with my first rounds of hormonal therapy. Serendipity i suppose. As we head into our summer i'm drawn outdoors for more a more sunshine....under UV blockage observance....i use a thing they call a buff now....a light weight muffler is what it is. i'm doing nothing to the extent of your ambitious routine...200+ km/wk...you Ozzie's are truly driven physically to a froth.... amidst all that insufferable heat at that.... My nephew never seems to leave his bicycle seat unoccupied.

Keep us posted.

Our social medical system is hit or miss....but it seems really sick people get what they need no questions asked...a quiet concession to the mortal needs of the unlucky few at the cost of the fortunate many. i haven't needed the care you've required as yet so we'll see how far the general good will extends if things go wrong.

My sister told me the Peter Mac got a good chunk of public funding the other day. every little bit helps relegate this disease to harrowing sagas from our fading memories.

G'day

JBL

[Patrick-Turner in reply to Jbooml]

Hi jbooml,

Mets are the real killers for many cancers. Maybe mine started way back in about 2004 when I think my Pca began at 57, 4 years before Psa reached 5 in 2009 and when biopsy showed a gleason 9 with 9 positive samples, and 4 months later an attempted open RP could not be done due cancer clinging to external surfaces of capsule. The surgeon didn't like being defeated, and handed me over to the radiation guys and they said 2 years ADT and 70Grey would work but later I found it never would have, I needed maybe 150Gy

with brachy but that would have caused a lot more damage to prostatic urethra needed for pissing, plus more damage to bladder control nerves. I am still fully continent and most soft tissue mets have gone, or now have very low PsMa expression in Ga68 scans. Gleason 9 are "high risk" mainly because Pca has probably already spread. ADT kept Psa down, nadir 0.08, but at 2 years I paused and Psa was back up to 8 in 6 months before attempted RP. So clearly all the initial treatment failed, and first mets appeared in 2016 in upper chest lymph nodes, then more in 2017 plus some bone mets, then countless bone mets by 2018, chemo failed, the Casodex and Zytiga had only worked for 14 months to suppress, but not kill any Pca cells. But Lu177 kills Pca cells, providing those cells express PsMa for ligand to hook onto, bringing Lu77 molecules with them to the tumour, or to right inside the tumor, to wherever there is a blood vessel feeding cancer growing.

When young, many here thought they'd just get a tan and that would stop further skin damage, but there are many north European genes in our population, and sure, some of us tanned up well, but many got skin cancers. My Dad was a vet, and saw many cancers in animals, and many caused by sunshine, yet he ignored a black spot on back of one leg and it was red all around and 6 mths later he has stroke symptoms but it was melanoma and docs said he'd live 9 mths, and they were right. There was no cure in 1973.

I have had few skin cancers frozen off, and I need to see a skin doc yearly. I've had less than my Mum had frozen off, but the thing that kept me out of the sun and off the beach was that I wanted to be busy at work, not a dole bludger on the beach. I never bothered to master surfing, and preferred thrills of owning motorcycles. I liked to wear a wide brim hat on building sites, keep the light shirt on.

Peter Mac is a leading private hospital in Oz, and had building open in 2016 worth $1billion, and you need full pockets to attend as a patient, but they conduct trials, and I followed trials of Lu177 in 2016 - 2017, and thought I'd need it, and I sure have, and it now seems to be kicking my cancer hard, but chemo had only tickled it, Psa went 12 to 45, 5 shots, then I switched to Lu177 from Theranostics Australia. This Lu177 is still being trialled with things like

Ketruda now in Brisbane Alexandra Hospital, and all this is all good work to try

to get the maximum benefits from treatment combining nuclides like Lu177 plus other therapies, With luck, the Labor Party wins election and Lu177 will be funded plus all the scans and consultations as well.

Maybe later I could need a dose or two+ of radium 223.

But today I got the molar tooth fixed by My Sweet Dentist, Dr Ena, no pain, looks like a new tooth, just such a fabulous lady from Vietnam. Cheap at $300.

But I had to walk 400M to a bus stop, then walk in city a little, then walk 400M at bus to home after, and hip slowed me to make me look like I was 90. Maybe I get a hip replacement. First I get the cancer so far down and under control that orthopaedic surgeon will be happy to install a hip joint, and the met in the femur would be automatically removed when he drills out the inside part of femur to glue in the post with ball on end that forms the new hip joint.

Getting old "successfully" here often means getting the best medical treatments just in time to avoid chronic ill health, dependence on others, recover fully so you are ready for the next problem, in my case, maybe the left hip failing. Many here have both knees and both hips replaced. They say the guys doing cremations get a nice little second income because of the titanium left behind after vaporizing a person. There are ppl here with so many protheses all sorts of things added and taken away so they can get old and smile. So be it.

An old friend wants me to buy ASEA products, says I would benefit bigtime, but he will not say what's in the blue bottles of liquid. I ask "Is it snake oil ?" and he just emails more empty adverts all saying nothing about the product. Its not terribly expensive, but I like to know what it really is, and know that the testimonials have not been typed up by professional testimonial writers, because I read a few of them where men described how he got Pca cured but the way the story was told had so many statements about hospital treatment details that could never have been true, because I have been through the big hospital system and the writer has not. There is an army of ppl getting paid to write lies, and more lies...….

A doctor here said its feel-good stuff, placebo, but will not repair damage after cancer, at least. Probably not kill 1 Pca cell anywhere, just like so many other quack remedies.

Patrick Turner.

[monte1111 in reply to Patrick-Turner]

Lies, lies and statistics. Here's to all of us getting old successfully. We shall all be titanium men. Hobbling around and saving the world, one smile at a time. Enjoy, Mr. Patrick.

[tennis4life]

Way to go Patrick....keep on keeping on!

[Hidden]

I’ve banned myself from talking about US politics..But I’m for your Labor party for the people. Good to hear your treatment is working. Hope that hip can mend and that you can get on the bike again . Take care🌵

[Hidden]

Glad to hear the treatment is working so well Patrick. Keep going - your bike misses you.

[Patrick-Turner in reply to Hidden]

I've got 4 bikes, one fully workable, another needs completion work, and two others that are old, but ridable, and this is sort of natural acquisition of what I have enjoyed for about 240,000km, during the 19 years where I cycled regularly, including a 6 year stint in 1980s-90s when I raced as a veteran.

I was interested in marrying Cannone Dale, and a celebrant asked why did I want to marry the bike, and I just told him "because I can go fer a firkin ride any old firkin time I firkin like," and he said well they've loosened up the marriage laws here to allow "others" to have a shot at trying to devote love and care toward each other, and in the absence of any dame in my life, he said he'd unite me with Cannone if I wanted.

But it looks like I have to put the plan on hold, and maybe even Cannone Dale is having second thoughts, knowing she may not be ridden again.

The thing in life is to seek what gives you moderate pleasure, a reasonable challenge, and happiness in others around you, all without wrecking the Planet, and that has largely been achieved, because I didn't need to buy a Lambo, a Maser, a Rolls, or a Merc, nah, just a few bikes did the trick. Nobody ever begged me to make them pregnant. They sure enjoyed imitating the process, but the dear ladies just never could follow through. I much look back with pride to my days spent pulling apart ppl's houses and putting them back together, only much better, giving them a better lifestyle, and nobody took me to court, police never had to arrest me, and I never left a black eye behind in any dispute, so really, life has not been three bad; it could have been better, but I have never cried a tear over that issue. And if I get a few more years of happy simple living with daily wonderment then Thattelle Doo.

Tomorrow is Saturday, and I'll shout meself a nice lunch at a local Thai restaurant. Maybe talk to some ppl. Sunday has a fabulous concert by local musicians, see musicadacamera.org.au/

I very much like Baroque period music.

Lets all calm down and enjoy,

Patrick Turner.

[Hidden in reply to Patrick-Turner]

Maybe think about having a meaningless fling with an Italian? I’m thinking Ms. C Olnago. Might give you the extra incentive you need. Alternatively, you could have a dalliance with a Legend.

[Patrick-Turner in reply to Hidden]

I can see that you understand the best sheilas to dally with are Italian.

But I am already shacked up with Cannone Dale, and 3 others, Issa Bitsa,

Redda Wonone, and very classy Sevene Fivathrea, whose relatives were used in 1980s to win Le Giro and Le Tour.

But these days, with a bung hip, and a Rodger that is a mere drainpipe, courtesy of doctors, I'd have to please with technicolor vibrator, variable frequency, temperature, etc, but really, in the human world there's not too many sheilas who want anything to do with a partially dismantled gentleman with use-by date fast approaching.

I don't mind. Its so much cheaper this way.

Patrick Turner.

[blet]

Patrick - even though you had to deal with the tooth issue, great news re your cancer. I so hope you can back to riding your bike. My husband was first diagnosed in 2012 at stage 4 with extensive bone mets. He's received tons of treatmens. He's currently in a trial and just had his 2nd shot of Lu-177 on March 22. He's on a 1/2 dose of Xtandi, full dose was too much for him. His PSA has gone from 388 to 302 so I have to assume this is working. The pain after the first shot was intense in his hips and back. This last shot was much better. He also had a pain injections into his hip and spine. For the past two weeks, he's been able to walk without his cane. Wooooo Hooooo. Where are you receiving your treatment? I don't think he is going to get another Ga-PSMA pet scan. He just had a bone scan and MRIs. My question to his doctors is how do we really know this worked? Here's to a better life for all of us.

[Patrick-Turner in reply to blet]

Hi blet,

My Psa was 25 before Lu177, then dropped to only 17 after no2 shot but then before No 3, the PsMa scan showed far less Pca activity in soft tissues and less in bones, in many places. I had low Psa of 6 at diagnosis with a Gleason 9 in-operable PG tumor in 2009, so my Psa was low while amount of Pca was high; many other might have had a Psa of 60 if they'd got to the Gleason 9 stage, so the reason my Pca became inoperable was I had low Psa and I went under the radar, after 10 years of regular Psa tests.

Lu177 is worth the expense if you stop the Pca increasing. But what is anyone's time worth? ppl want a cure, hoping it just goes away, and this is so rare there's no point hoping for a cure, so we must make the best of life while we have it. In the 2016-2017 trials at Peter Mac hospital in Melbourne, about 30% got no benefit and Psa just went up as Pca increased. Most of those suffered to the end with bone cancer. But 70% got a year or more, before Psa began to rise again to threaten them. Some seemed to get remission like response. But where men did get a good response, it usually took 2 Lu177 doses to get there at least, and so if I get continuing big drop in Psa after No 4 shot in 3 weeks time I will have got a good response, and maybe the fix will last a year or more, but if I include the time I began it, its longer than that; and its all about time, and getting more of it.

I went to Lu177 as soon as I could after Docetaxel seemed to have failed. Psa was 12 before chemo, then went to 45 after 4 shots, I booked Lu177, and Psa stayed high for a 5th chemo, then Psa fell to 25 a month later when I began Lu177 when scans showed more mets and increased met size. Theranostics Australia is the company based in Perth offering the Lu177 treatment. They began about 3 years ago there then then started in Sydney and that's where I get the shots. The demand is rapidly increasing because thousands of "baby boomer" men are getting to the age when they get this terrible disease that wrecks their retirement years, and most seriously disturbs their wives and family as I am sure you know about.

Pain for me in bone mets has been minimal because at first Lu177 there was no bone lesion bigger than pea size. But I did get pains in 5 places for a few days after No1, 2 shots, but not much after No 3. It appears that when Aunty Lutertia gate crashes the cancer parties in a man's bones, she causes mahem with her beta-particle gun, and the whole party hots up with dead Pca cells all over the joint, and there's a huge mess for the body to clean up, and it all gets darn sore, and the bigger the met, the sorer you get.

AFAIK, the test of whether cancer has worked is based on lower Psa, and diminished amount of cancer seen in PsMa scans, and if that is also seen in special CT scans with radioactive contrast agent, then progress has been made toward extending life. I will probably have another PsMa scan in July.

But Pca is a very naughty beast because it mutates, and the correlation between Psa and amount of cancer can change if the mutant Pca does not make Psa, and even worse, if it does not express PsMa so cannot be seen on PsMa Ga68 scans and thus cannot be treated with Lu177. I have had 6 Ga68 scans, about $700 each. There have been numerous blood tests. The doctors need to know how things are going.

If or when Lu177 has run its course to be effective, and Pca continues, then a man enters the land of fairly experimental therapy, and DNA is analyzed and if he has Bca2 gene, docs may consider immune therapy similar to Bca, maybe give PARP treatment, or switch to the very severe forms of chemo therapy, or maybe give radium 223, aka Zofigo. Its not over if Lu177 fails. But although huge research is going on to match best chemo or IT for given mutant cell types, it is an inexact science; the idea of tailoring a chemical to cancer cell variety is most vexing because the body is so complex and cancer has so many ways to stay alive and grow no matter what any doctor throws at it. My cancer is slow growing, and it takes time for anything to work if it ever does, and I am lucky to not be a man whose Pca just races away out of control and kills fast. I know a man still alive after diagnosis in 1993 at age 62. But another has stopped answering his phone, maybe he's gone, after only 3 years, under 60yo. and at times he could see that "things were working" and then 3 months later they were not, and his DNA analysis said PARP inhibitors should work, but Psa went from 40 to 432 in a couple of months, then mets showed up in his liver...… and so it all got too much. Such a good man he was, lovely wife, teenage kids, agony for them all. In the face of such tribulations we can only huddle together for love and comfort, damp with tears, as Nature runs its course.

I have grieved enough for myself, and fortunately my Pca has not directly affected others with sorrow, I never found much love so I had no family so I live each day grateful to still be alive, and maybe enjoy the remaining life I get.

So I suggest try to find calmness, others to grieve with, as millions before us have done.

Despite my troubles, it is a magical time to be alive because if I'd been born in 1400, and if I reached 35 I would have been lucky. Cancer also has the effects of causing anger as well as grief, we are much challenged. But I think ppl need to ask themselves to dig deep, get past this hard time, like the other hard times, and many succeed.

I hope the sun shines tomorrow,

Patrick Turner.

[blet in reply to Patrick-Turner]

Thanks for the additional information. Yes, PCa is a journey and a hell of a roller coaster ride. We knew when my husband was first diagnosed that it would never be cured. I just want to be able to manage it and keep it at bay for as long as we can. His mets have caused him considerable pain and we are so lucky to be able to be in this trial. It's our last hope, but we all have to fight this beast as best as we can. I wish you continued success in your journey.

[Jackpine]

Patrick

Wonderful news on the results and wishing you more success. Hope you get cycling again!

[Miguelnumerouno]

Good afternoon from UK.

May I ask please :

The frequency of your treatments.....looks like every 4 weeks....is that what happened between 1 and 2 in particular ... ie, 4 weeks ? You mention that treatment 6 is 27th April?

Your PSA after first shot : was there steady decline?.... any flare ? .....I'm really asking for your PSA trail from initiation to second treatment.....would you mind ?

Many thanks,

Michael UK

[Patrick-Turner in reply to Miguelnumerouno]

Hi Miguel n,

Lu177 treatment is fully explained at Theranostics Australia website which is easy to google.

I'm having Lu177 infusions every 8 weeks.

Psa was 25 before any Lu177.

It reduced to 17 before No 3, then flat lined, then after No 3 has fallen to 5 now. Just where the Psa was coming from changed changed because soft tissue mets seemed to decline, and bone mets may have increased a bit, but

no Psa flare has been seen. My Psa response would be different to many other men, and this therapy is a gamble, like so many other things, it either works, or does not, and for how long it works if it does is entirely unpredictable, but if you read results of trials of Lu177, perhaps you'll see just what is possible if you or a relative is considering buying this expensive treatment.

[Miguelnumerouno in reply to Patrick-Turner]

Thank you Patrick.....I think it was a typo when you mentioned treatment 6 in your post.....that's what prompted the question.

My bio shows I had lu177/act225 in Germany on 18th March and they are suggesting each 12 weeks thereafter if indeed , as you correctly state, the treatment works.

I've seen the scans of where both treatments " landed" and that was on target...ie on known Mets so it's a waiting game now.

Three different laboratories for PSA results but that will be regularised:

11th March pre treatment =8.0

18th March immediately pre treatment =6.32

3rd April post treatment by 16 days = 7.12

If I've understood correctly a better indication of performance will be 4 week results .

All other readings from FBC bang in middle of range.

Thank you Patrick.

Michael UK

[Patrick-Turner in reply to Miguelnumerouno]

Hi Miguel n,

Ya got a very low Psa start point there. Here, Psa results are remarkably similar from different pathologists, or if repeated, and maybe because process is "by hand" in the lab and not done by robots as in bigger cities.

From what little I know, Psa relates to PsMa and the lower the Psa the lower the PsMa so its harder to get a scan result if Psa is below a certain threshold, and its harder to get Lu177 or Ac225 to hang around near tumor sites if "PsMa avidity" is low with the low Psa. So afaik, where mets are very small, Lu177 or Ac225 become less effective, so they have to grow big before they are treatable. So in effect, one might say Lu177 is like a lawn mower, you cut the grass to ground level but it grows back up and needs more mowing. In theory, chemo should work well because it works on very small mets maybe better than on big ones because there is no threshold effect. Same goes for immune therapy where it works. But perhaps after getting enough Lu177 into and around a bone met the whole tumor could be killed because beta particles get into the

"roots of the lawn" so cell changes cause cancer death, plus a little bit of healthy cell death. The exact imagined action by Lu177 on cancer cells remains a Miss Terrey because I have no education in biology, I can only imagine, and Beta particles travel only a short distance, maybe 1.5mm. There is a lot about Lu177 we are never told because its so complicated that nobody can understand it except ppl who have studied it very closely. But at my last Lu177 inject, the doctor looking after me an another man for the day was a renowned researcher on Pca, kinda like a female version of a 40yo Albert Einstein, boy, she really did know a lot. Anyway, she sees that my Psa avidity has dropped to maybe 1/3 of what it was, from PsMa scan, and then had me start enzalutamide to make the Pca produce higher PsMa avidity to be able to make mets attract more Lu177 than otherwise, so its supercharging the Lu177 action. She did not explain if Psa would rise in this process. But Psa increase does not always equate to increase in Pca cells. I just don't fully understand all this, so I just agreed to do things her way, no wurries.

She said wouldn't be able to keep up with me on my bike, but I said I'd slow down a bit, get to know you better. She understood cyclists, and looked athletic, and had a son who did 500km a week. I am 30 years too late for her, and not as clever, she has honours degree and has published so much........ not just any old doctor.

Patrick Turner

[Miguelnumerouno in reply to Patrick-Turner]

Thank you Patrick....I find it highly beneficial to speak to different professionals.

My scans pre treatment reported " intensely PSMA avid" so I am hoping for a good bond / action to my most unwelcome guests.....we'll see.

Like you I am lining up the next course of action...firstly yh genetic testing which I'm hoping to get on a trial here in UK and see what happens with Germany.

Re- vitalising PSMA....my Onc .

has kept me on Zytiga/ Abiraterone......any views on that ?

Thank you Patrick.

Michael UK

[Patrick-Turner in reply to Miguelnumerouno]

In 2015, the first PsMa scans arrived here in Melbourne, in Oz, and in 2016 the normal ADT was beginning to fail at Psa of 5 so the public hospital specialist sent me to a Melbourne private hospital, Epworth,

to get a PsMa scan that showed big Pca activity at PG, and 2 upper thorax lymph nodes each side of oesophagus In July I had PG radiated with an additional 31Grey from Calypso IMRT, and 45Gy to each lymph, over a 5 week period. This specialist RT was not yet available in public hospitals, and Medicare paid about 45% of the bills, and because I was the first in Oz to have such "salvation radiation" where the primary PG tumor had only 70Gy from public hospital. I met men who said that worked very well - 10 years after they had had the same RT, maybe on the same Varian machine as mine. It works for men with Gleason 4 or 5 and non aggressive, but always fails with Gleason 9, aggressive cells, which I had, inoperative as well.

I began Casodex when I began the IMRT and was told this would make the IMRT more effective. In 4 months Psa went from 5.6 to a nadir of 0.4, but then began to rise so 4 more months I was back to square 1 with Psa at 5.0, so I passed the Casodex and began Zytiga, and I got a nadir of about 0.5 again, and in Feb 2017, with Pca considered to be not an immediate threat to me a surgeon gave be a bilateral knee joint replacement. I was off the bike for 10 weeks, but by July 2017 was cycling faster than guys who used to pass me in a group years before. But Psa went up AGAIN, and so I began Zytiga, and I got a nadir of 2, which my doc said was common, and then it rose again and I began chemo last year at Psa of 12. After 2 inject and a Pda flare to 36, I could see Docetaxel was not working because in other men where it does, Psa nose dives after 1 injection. But after 4 injects the doctors agreed with me it had failed and Psa was 40ish, so they granted my request I'd made before chemo that if chemo didn't work I'd be referred for Lu177. My onco figured my Pca would not respond to chemo well because by mid 2018 there were countless small bone mets, and he was right, I got my wish, and within a month of the last and 5th chemo shot I got Lu177, So I went to Lu177 having had tried a lot of other things. It now seems I am getting a good response with Lu177, and I have only been taking enzalutamide for a week before a blood test showed Psa at 5. So its the Lu177 getting Psa down, not enzalutamide. Doc said when abiraterone stops working, its no good switching to enzalutamide because it is likely to not work, and Medicare won't fund the switch because of this general conclusion. BUT, after chemo, and with some Lu177, the cancer's resistance to abira or enzal reduces, and either of these drugs begins to work again and maybe for a longer time than the first time they were used. AND the enzal is thought to make Pca cells express more PsMa avidity so when I have the next and 4th and maybe last shot it will be the knockout punch. So you can see that you and any doctor treating you needs to calmly expect a long fight, and you have to know where the stepping stones are as you cross this river, and whether to tread on this one or that one, and when you get across the river, you'll still be soaking wet, and maybe find more rivers to cross.

So while a man does all this, THERE IS LIFE, no? so live it, and learn to be OK about your mortality, you have time to love others especially if they help you. By the time the Pca finally wins because nothing else is possible, you should be ready to say goodbye. Nature has taken its course. Your molecules will be dismantled and taken up in thousands of other things in the world, and this is the real nature of re-incarnation.

When you leave behind a nice estate for others, then is that not that the finest way of a "thank you" to all you leave behind?

The Federal Treasurer never ever mentions the input of estates from those who died to the National Economy, but I think its worth a mention here, right now. Those you leave behind will not remember those who die for long unless you happened to become famous. Most of us will not be remembered for long, we are either just a humble bloke or a sheila, or an in-between, whatever, and if we were benign, its nice to un-exist and be remembered with a smile, when anyone alive finds out who we were.

I hazard a guess that the amount left in estates more than pays society for all the Medicare benefits I took from society when it so graciously insisted I have it. Is this socialism? No, its a just Great Society.

This afternoon I went to a concert with fabulous musicians, works by famous composers, and the world smiled at me, I could not wish to be anywhere else. My hip allowed me the walk to / from carpark, total 1km at least, enough exercise, and now for a swim......

Patrick Turner.

[Miguelnumerouno in reply to Patrick-Turner]

Thank you for your time Patrick....there are parallels between us to a certain extent in , and generally , that I had rather limited success with

Docetaxel and also with the Abiraterone which I am still on as per my bio.

Thankfully I am able to be the required patient chap in the wait to see if Lu/act works

and ,indeed thereafter , if the Abi is " re-ignited".

I am pursuing genetic mapping in the meantime.

Best of luck Patrick.

Michael UK

[Patrick-Turner in reply to Miguelnumerouno]

I am just lucky to be able to afford Lu177. Many men less fortunate than myself don't own anything that could be collateral to get a loan to pay for Lu177 at their age.

I never paid for health insurance because I had such a healthy life until Pca diagnosis. But I worked hard and paid taxes and my estate left to others of society will more than pay for all my treatments paid by Medicare, so society will be better off for my coming to this world and my going from it. So I can calmly pay to try Lu177, accept any add-on ideas paid by Medicare to make it work better, and hope for best.

If your mets show up well in PsMa Ga68 scans, the Lu177 is very likely to work well. Its theranostic treatment, where the treatment method is similar to diagnostic treatment, you sit in a chair and get an injection. There's no pain.

Ga 68 is a tame nuclide, but makes Pca appear in PET scans.

The trend in Germany where Lu177 was invented has been to get Lu177 early rather than later; so no need to waste time trying chemo which probably won't work especially on bone mets.

There's a trial in Melbourne starting next year to give Lu177 to men BEFORE an RP, and you'd have to wonder about that, but in my case with Gleason 9 and 9 live samples, Lu177 given as primary treatment may have killed all the soft tissue cancer at PG and maybe killed the small mets that were too small to appear in PsMa scans, all BEFORE a pile of mutations could occur over many years which is likely in my case.

This trial is revolutionary because Lu177 is not given as an end stage therapy for men where nothing else works, but right at the beginning of their troubles with Pca. Now in my case my Pca had come outside capsule to surround PG to make a big soft puffy mess that was inoperable and 3 times normal volume. Lu177 would thus maybe kill all

healthy tissue including prostatic urethra and all nerves within that puffy ball mess, so I might expect a good fix, but be left well damaged and totally incontinent and with unfixable ED. Well, there's the uncertain part and perhaps nerves and any healthy tissues within PG and not invaded by Pca could survive. A later RP would just remove the mess, and the surgery sites would not have been affected by the radiation by beta particles, so thus surgery could be done without risk of bleeding, but I'd thus get a better benefit - maybe - its all a bit uncertain in Gleason 9+ cases. The highest amount of IMRT ( Xrays ) is about 86Grey with gel pads to protect bowel et all, and brachy therapy can deliver 150Grey, but side effects of this are all high, and skill of a surgeon needed. In Lu177 delivery, no human has to guide where it goes,

and gel pads are not needed and there's no beam ray damage and the targeted treatment looks like a far better way to go - and its time to test the idea.

But for Gleason 4 to 7 cases where Pca is pea sized tumour inside PG, maybe Lu177 would be extremely effective and all nerves would be left untouched, so continence is OK and ED fine, and any mets would also perish if that is what happens where the mets are not big enough to form an image in PsMa Ga 68 scans; I've always thought tiny mets may survive Lu177, but I could be wrong, and maybe the smallest of mets that were PsMa avid would still attract enough Lu177 to kill them, maybe more effectively than where the mets have grown large.

So right now, many questions are being asked by researchers on how they can alter the timing of Lu177, ( or perhaps Ac225 ) and how they can combine such nuclides with other chemicals, enzalutamide in my case, and Keytruda in another trial here going on. If we get success here in our trials it will lead to other success for other cancers, providing a ligand chemical can be made to bond the nuclide to the tumor cells.

The ligand chemical is apparently inert in the body and causes no side effects, and its chemical action is something I know almost nothing about, but its like a tour guide, the bland plain figure who is not noticed who leads Aunty Lutetia up to the cancer party, and introduces her as Dear Aunty, and the tumor welcomes her inside without noticing she's giving them all a lethal dose from her concealed beta particle gun.

I don't know where she conceals her gun, but she gets straight past the security guys. Must have a beguiling smile.

Auntie's gun runs out of ammo after about 2 weeks shooting up the cancer, and the body washes her away with the ligand into the bloodstream where she's filtered out by kidneys and sent out down a toilet with help by Rodger, The Lu177 has become non radioactive and is inert to nearly all life, so does not lead to damaged wildlife in creeks and rivers. But there are large amounts of hormones and hormone manipulating drugs going through the sewer system and then rivers and this is altering wildlife. If we could get rid of ADT the environment benefits, and having testosterone is healthy for a man going into old age. The worst damage to waterways and oceans is the use of plastics which kill vast numbers of creatures and also end up as nano particles which may render all seafood inedible. Everyone would like to ban all plastics but not until something genuinely bio-degradable and cheap comes along so nobody has to be punished for littering. Beaches round the world are becoming beaches of plastic.

Patrick Turner.

[monte1111 in reply to Patrick-Turner]

So glad you enjoyed the concert. You are a great philosopher sir.

[AnnieAppleseed]

A family history such as you describe, may be due to BRCA gene. Usually shows up as breast or ovarian, but prostate is part of it too. That said, sounds like you are doing well with treatment. To reduce treatment toxicities it is great to use evidence-based complementary therapies. My nonprofit Annie Appleseed has an evidence-based Handout that may be helpful. annieappleseedproject.org/w...

[Patrick-Turner in reply to AnnieAppleseed]

Hi Annie A,

There is uncertainty about Brca2 genes in men causing Pca. I have watched a man with aggressive Pca go down and he was Brca2, so he had chemicals tailored to suit this, and Psa moved from 40 to 432, in 8 weeks, and his Pca in runaway mode and he does not answer his phone, so he may have died.

Theories are plenty, but they don't apply to everyone because cancer has so much molecular and DNA variation between ppl.

I found no reason to eat or drink anything to ease side effects of chemo I had or the Lu177. The next No 4 inject is likely to cause a longer time of partial dry mouth. But so far, nothing has been discovered to prevent Lu177 damage to saliva glands and tear glands. Everyone reacts a little differently to whatever treatment is given. If you like to take a little cannabis oil to make the experience of medicine more tolerable, don't let me stop you. I grew a little low THC cannabis in late 2014, and took it nightly to see if Psa went down. There was ZERO effect on Psa, just went slowly up on ADT. The high made music and silly TV shows seem real good, and I made sure I stayed home, and so feel good factor with Sativa oil is good, and benign, but I quit after 8 mths. In daytime I was fine, straight, able to think OK. No side effects. No paranoia, no addiction, and only 3mg of oil per day was needed for a 5 hour high, but there must have been high CBD, low THC. Don't use Indica. 3mg is enough to cover the head of sewing pin, aka almost SFA. I tried bitter almonds, no effect on Psa.

Patrick Turner.

[Patrick-Turner in reply to AnnieAppleseed]

Hi Annie A,

I like your simple-is-beautiful material at your link in your post.

Lots of old fashioned remedies of which not one would do anyone any harm, and all may maybe improve a person's wellbeing.

Maybe you forgot to tell folks to put down their mobile phones and get along to whatever classical music is being played live near them. Music written over 100years ago is good, maybe 300years old is even better, and if there's a loved one present its dubbly betta, and if ya holds hands its triply better. Some folks went to church and the socialness of singing hymns together in harmony with others had a sustaining effect, even if the words in hymns and beliefs were un-believable. They say joining a choir is good for the soul. Our primitive origins involved us singing together, and oldest musical instruments pre-date a Stratocaster geetah by about 50,000 years.

Hug a tree anyone? the modern world of consumerism is a horrid greedy thing, and sure, earn enough to live, but what about Nature?

And can you find sunshine in winter? there are winter days when sun shines, so strip off and let those rays make vitamin D, the soft warming and UV is virtually harmless in winter.

Always find somewhere that can be a sort of second home where there's the flow of humankind in front of thine eyes, in my case its a local café, for a sandwich at lunch time. All things are good that you mention, but how does one boost one's sanity? From the flow of ppl you should find a friend or two, never to be feared, they'll never anger thee, and it all adds up to a better possible way of survival IMHO.

Can anyone stop wanting so much as they do? more than could ever be had in many cases....

I'd never suggest a mental state would stop Pca, but if we are stuck with this challenge to our withins, then we can learn that hating it does not work, and that life can go on well for a long time. And we should question ourselves by stepping out beyond ourselves and see us from afar, and maybe reality we see won't hurt so much.

Anyway, I wish you a lot of good luck Annie, and pardon my Sunday thoughts,

after some great music earlier this arvo.

Patrick Turner.

[AnnieAppleseed in reply to Patrick-Turner]

I am a strong supporter of living in the moment and enjoying today. Our website is filled with lots of ideas - from indoor plants that help cleanse the air, to all sorts of environmental tips. Eating, being physically active and learning to handle stress, is just the beginning of feeling as well as one can each and every day. All good wishes.

[Patrick-Turner in reply to AnnieAppleseed]

I guess indoor plants might help, but are they not angry about being kept indoors? Very few indoor plants can live in my house because most need a warm climate and winter here has 100 frosts a year. But air is very clean, and I don't smoke, I eat right, no meat, lots of raw greens, have kept BMI under 25 for years, HR under 50, and blood test numbers all good except for Psa. When all sorts of horrible things happened, I was usually the one to stay calm and solve a problem. The worst that happened was a deserting wife but I settled accounts with her OK, and when loved ppl died I grieved and got over it. I enjoyed the stress of working for a living and cycling 200km a week since 2006. I came to this town with nothing in 1973, but had a good life here, but many others came and flounded, they could not commit to anyone or anything, and I doubt there's any advice to be given for ppl who on face value should succeed to stay together but just cannot, usually they have a general disposition of a child put on a floor surrounded by toys and he/she just cries and cries, never happy, and when they try to marry they just winge and moan and blame other and cannot lift a finger to get themselves together, and if I offered advice, I was told "don't you tell me what to do" and so many just found they really can't relate, and the only escape is on a late night plane, or a tirade of tears and statement that they need to go travelling again. They could enjoy sex, marriage, but just could not stay on the porch; unhappy restlessness intervened. There were men and women who fitted this pattern, a floating mass of singles and I met a lot of them, employed a few and I doubt any of your subtle remedies would work on any. I enjoyed staying in the one town after the move here in 1973, and it did not matter that I ended up as alone now as I came. I have no family, its OK, because from what I saw happen with so many other ppl family life was just a big huge burden; ppl have the strong instinct and urge to mate and produce offspring but many have no way of being happy under the weight of responsibilities that brings, and as soon or before that's done they divorce and load up with more troubles they can poke a stick at. I avoided all that. Before 30, when wife 1 left I got fairly radical about the goodness factor in others, and I chose the ladies with care, but still they wanted freedom. But I chose happy married couples to work for and it gave me great happiness and satisfaction to help others and it did not matter if I did not live a dreamy happy life that seemed to mythical. The stats show that divorced men secumb to all sorts of illnesses including cancer more than married men but I was the complete exception to that myth. I'm still living in the house I bought in 1976, I felt zero need to leave, the more I stay the more good I see around me. I shared house with maybe 20 ppl who passaged they way through life and stayed awhile, had no arguments, and when my Pca came it was expected, and if I died I would not worry after, so why worry too much before?

So how I live is my thing, maybe others are appalled at my life, that does not worry me either. Very few get to my age without needing an average of 12 medications for goodness knows what; and if Pca had not got me, something else would have, so very few have nothing go wrong til 90.

I hope to cycle a bit more, tinker in my shed a bit, be nice to all I meet, and never be a grumpy old man full of silly ideas which all have no tangible basis.

Meanwhile, its another nice day here, my hip is OK to be able to do basic things, and there's a lot of cleaning up in shed to get on with, and what the world does out there is beyond my control, and despite human failings I see, there's more good will than evil around.

So its maybe why I manage to be fairly happy, all things considered.

Being young again would be just so nice, but if I was, the ppl around me would embrace me closer, enjoying the youth in me, but wonder how come I think like a 72 yo. Would I need to explain how I time travelled?

Patrick Turner.

[GeorgeGlass]

Promises by politicians are usually not kept and promises by socialists are destructive to a nation because they overspend and they lower the quality of treatment, aka Obamacare or other socialist medical treatment plans around the world. Prevention of disease due to healthy lifestyle is the best healthcare. Countries that don't have healthy lifestyles or eating are going to have an overabundance of very sick people and I shouldn't have to pay for them though an inefficient and uncaring government bureaucracy. That's what charity organizations and for-profit insurance plans are for. Giving free stuff to people incentivizes poor behavior. People should take care of themselves, make and save money, pay into private health insurance during their life. Then their treatment for unexpected illness will be covered. We don't need destructive promises and policies from socialists that don't understand economics and don't care about their country, which will deteriorate when bad behaviors are incentivized. Plus, hard work/success is disincentived when people know their savings and income are going to pay for a bloated, inefficient healthcare system that is overrun with obese, diseased throngs of unemployed people, often non- citizens. Socialized medicine also incentivizes doctors to shorten the appointment times leading to inaccurate diagnosis and doctor attrition/ early retirement. In America, liberal politicians promise Medicare for all but it's all a destructive idea. Plus, it's a lie from jump street. If it was passed, it wouldn't be Medicare at all. It would be a much lower quality of care with huge deductibles and enormous wait times for appointments. Don't believe the deception of liberal/socialists promising expensive programs. The programs would be destructive to the current system and ultimately run the country's economy into the ground. All nations should start teaching kids how to eat and exercise to be healthy. If any big infusions of money should be spent, it should be spent on the government legally removing all toxic pesticides etc. and incentivize certified organic farms, plus lowering healthcare rates for people who meet height and weight standards.

[j-o-h-n in reply to GeorgeGlass]

J-o-h-n ------> whispering.......ditto.

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 04/05/2019 7:45 PM EDT

[Patrick-Turner in reply to GeorgeGlass]

The Australian experience with Medicare suggests that what you say about Medicare as you imagine it in USA is completely opposite to our experience.

I am not going to spend days trying to argue, but we all love our Medicare and it DOES NOT dilute the standard of treatments.

Medicare here is similar to European models. Socialist left wing governments and communists have never been popular here and we do not fear such things and we value every person's health, regardless of their socio-economic status.

If ppl here want to go to private enterprise hospitals and pay for private insurance they are free to. Some will not treat a person if they don't have insurance, but public hospitals treat all comers, and never have I ever needed a credit card to attend one. But the private give pp, what the public system cannot, such as Lu177, at $40,000 for 4 injections. 1 month of Zytiga costs $6.30 at a chemist. The completely poor person could not get Lu177 here because its not yet paid for by Medicare, but that may change. So despite the in-consistencies and delays to having new expensive drugs and therapies approved for funding, our system is so much better for us than what we see in USA.

Little did I expect that I would stir up so much talk about politics by mentioning the possible outcome of our coming Federal election where a change to Labor would be a godsend to so many ppl who through no fault of their own got some terrible cancer, battling for their lives, as we see here. In Australia, we have found it best to fund most medical expenses of everyone by taxes. Pity help any Polly Tishanne who says he or she wants to dismantle our Medicare.

[GeorgeGlass in reply to Patrick-Turner]

America's completely different animal than Australia Medicare in America is effective under the current situation least up until a few years ago what if we try to give it to everybody it really won't be Medicare anymore it'll be something else like singer single-payer insurance which doesn't work for all the reasons why I mentioned European model work for a long time and it's becoming less effective also because of all the immigration it's taking place and the demographics the values of the different cultures strain on the system America's completely different animal than most people in America eat a really poor Western diet and it causes lung cancer and heart disease it's that simple just watch Forks over knives and you'll know

[AnnieAppleseed in reply to GeorgeGlass]

So sorry you feel that way. To me, war machine, killing, bombing, destroying SPEND SO MUCH of our tax dollars, we don't have enough to help people LIVE. And of course, taxes were lowered for those who needed a 'break' the least. Wow.

[GeorgeGlass in reply to AnnieAppleseed]

What do you mean we don't have enough may help people live we can help each other that's a charities for we don't have to be forced to pay for other people I give to charities all the time that helps a charity survive and don't believe what the media tells you tax cuts help everybody they helped repatriate money to America so that those corporations can hire people and lower the unemployment rate to where it is right now which is about 3%

[Patrick-Turner in reply to GeorgeGlass]

Here in little Australia, we have decided to buy 12 non nuclear submarines from French manufacturers at a nominal cost of $50billion

which probably will escalate to $100billion over next 20 years, and by then its likely other countries like China will have sensors dotted round the world's oceans and have thousands of small drone subs that may render the sub deal with France to be pure folly.

That is the kind of expense that our taxes pay for, and thus those who pay the most taxes could be said to have paid the most to defend both themselves and the poor, who pay almost nothing to be defended. There are those who would deny the poor because they make the country poor, thus thwarting the idea of "Making Australia Great" or making any country great, and Mr Trump has gathered many votes to "Make America Great" All this grandiose ambition is just fine, but all societies have their poor who cannot afford good medicals nor afford the submarines. Would you have us exterminate the poor? Here, we give everyone a fair go, and pay for the sickness of the poor, and if our society is capable of such vast expense on submarines, is it unreasonable to pay the medical costs of the poor that are so tiny compared to defence spending. Here, ppl vote to support the idea of good Medicare for ALL, not just the rich, and the voices who hate paying for someone else's sickness just don't get many votes. The fact is that Charities could never ever pay for the troubles of the poor, mainly because the whole of society just is not very charitable or generous or loving or kind so the Government has been given the responsibility to get the taxes to pay for the submarines and the poor. And taxation is not evadable, although the rich have found many ways to avoid paying tax. Avoiding tax is damned evil. But if taxation was voluntary, nobody would pay a cent, so no submarines and the poor would die begging in the streets, maybe outside the rich man's door.

So, a fair society taxes where it can to provide for its defense and the well being of EVERYONE, without discrimination, and so someone who smokes and gets cancer then gets cancer treatment, and I get Pca treatment, without an inquiry about whether I deserve it or not.

And while the poor live, they cannot save, and they often work on such low wages to make huge profits for big companies to make their bosses richer and richer and bursting fat with obscene amount of wealth.

So far, we have known the value and practice of fairness, and most here want that to continue. And if a rich man turns up to get free treatment at a public hospital we don't shoo him away, just as we don't shoo the poor man away. Despite what the Far Right say, we can afford what we do.

And so I can get the free treatment for Pca, and have enough dough to buy the special new treatment like Lu177. I don't have to sell my house.

When I die, society collects the value of my house, the product of my hard work.

Patrick Turner

[GeorgeGlass in reply to Patrick-Turner]

Most of the right side of the spectrum and many moderates agree with fiscal conservatism. Over-spending on Military, medical, welfare, stimulus, infrastructure etc. is never advised by those who are true conservatives, who want a balanced budget and no national debt. This is what makes sense and this is my position. Nonetheless, it's difficult to get a steady, coherent budget plan when the "strategy" keeps changing every 4-8 years. We spent 7 trillion dollars from America on worthless wars (which I fought in two of them). Thus, I like strong military defense forces to be prepared to fight against China who will continue to grow in strength and aggressiveness during the century. However, there should be plenty of other tax money available for the other needed areas but increasing competition for medical insurance companies in America is part of the solution, as well as incentivizing healthy lifestyles with individual health savings accounts as well as indoctrinating kids every year from nursery school until high school graduation on what to eat and how to exercise. This would free up plenty of money for the 2 year old cancer patients because it wouldn't be spent on 300-600 pound people who do nothing but eat and go to the hospital every week or two (my girlfriend) treats many of them every week. It would also free up more money for cancer and other disease research. Like healthy eating to fight cancer, there isn't ione magic bullet. It's the synergy you get from doing several things right. Unfortunately, the political parties are so divided in America that getting all the right things done isn't going to happen, especially when nobody except Rand Paul and a handful of others, is will to cut the debt and balance the budget. Pretty soon, our debt ratios will be almost as high as Japan, meaning decades of malaise and low growth that's 19 years in the making. The democrats want a socialist style "health-treatment" plan not health prevention, and that plan will ensure overcrowded offices, poor care, long appt. wait times and lower average life spans. Throwing money at the problem through implementation of a bloated-government program would be a massive failure and also increase the national debt to close to $75 trillion within 10 years after implementation.

Although the recent tax cuts in America will increase national GDP and bring more jobs to America, there is one big negative consequence to the recent tax cut plan in America and that is it's affect on charity giving because most people will no longer be able to itemize deductions in order to lower taxes because the standard deduction will be greater than the itemized totals. I'm afraid that this will result in a major decrease in charity giving but we'll have to see how it plays out. America was founded on freedom, which is why we rebelled against English restrictions: on religious freedom, freedom of speech and high tax burdens. The majority of Americans still feel this way and we want to give directly to charities instead of the federal government wasting half of the tax money before its ever given to the people in need. There is no accountability by the federal government for wasting money and we don't need to throw a million ton can of fuel on top of an already $22,000,000,000,000 national debt fire.

[Patrick-Turner in reply to GeorgeGlass]

You have a keen sense of what is going on in your country with regard to foreign wars which seem to have yielded few good results except to starve the US of much needed $$$$ for health, education, and replacing and renewing infrastructure. But the un-elected CEOs of vast corporations who urged the wars to get rich could not care less about the poor. Middle east countries can't be forced to be democratic, often to serve the US thirst for oil. Obesity and diabetes that comes with it are problems here too, but once you exclude them from Medicare its the thin edge of the wedge and it leads to justifying not treating men with Pca because they are old and useless and a burden. Few can be brainwashed into adopting healthy lifestyles. So we treat all comers, its the Govt's duty to help everyone free of discrimination. Of every 100 ppl, maybe 20 have no control over what they eat, drink, smoke, so why are bad things sold that are non good for anyone's health? ppl voted for the Govt to allow un-regulated free enterprise.

We also rebelled against the Brits and gained independence without losing a drop of blood. We let the Queen Elizabeth be our sovereign, which is a crazy thing but she's entirely powerless unless a Govt proves it just can't rule at all. A President would be a divisive person and we has a referendum on having a Republic in 1990s and ppl voted No, because they fear change, and for good reason. We retained the best of Westminster system, and we muddle on because nothing is perfect.

So like England the Prime Minister is the Chief Bwana here, to be loved or hated depending on what his party does about our quality of life. And we didn't need to have any civil war about anything although the effect of white ppl coming to Oz decimated the natives here because they spread smallpox and other euro disease that natives had no resistance to so I have little to be proud of in that regard about my country. We enslaved blacks on cattle farms up north, same old story of use the natives and never pay them right.

I don't know what the rates of Pca are for the natives who have survived

but most don't live long enough to get it.

Our debt is about $350billion, for 24million ppl, and just how we repay all that is presently quite unknow and Polly Tishans lie continually about it and nobody really gives a pharque. Nobody can resist voting for the good life and nobody votes for anyone who says "We are gonna clean up this mess and youse are all gonna pay 200% more tax to do it"

So, despite the shortcomings and bad things about my country, its not a bad place to live, and I can get leading edge Pca treatment that is better than most other countries of the world.

I must now drive over to a hospital to have a nice talk with oncologist about how I am going again.

Its a nice day here,

Patrick Turner.

[GeorgeGlass in reply to AnnieAppleseed]

Wow

[RA-MA in reply to GeorgeGlass]

There are 2 year olds with all kinds of cancers. This diagnosis of a child flips most young families into bankruptcy as one parent has to quit a job to deal with the care, medical expenses not paid by insurance, etc. To say people led an unhealthy lifestyle that caused cancer is cruel.

[GeorgeGlass in reply to RA-MA]

most of the people that have cancer did happen because of an unhealthy lifestyle that's the fact there's outliers and smaller percentage that get it randomly and they can take care of it with the insurance if they've been paying into from their parents parents didn't pay into an insurance the other going to have a problem that's what insurance is for so you don't have those problems

[j-o-h-n]

Keep Pumping....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Friday 04/05/2019 7:54 PM EDT

[monte1111]

Don't know where all that came from, and don't care. I know nothing (in a German accent). Enjoy your day Patrick.

[GeorgeGlass in reply to monte1111]

Just some facts that I want to present to the original posting that's all