What to do about Adderall Toxicity, i.e. it messes with your endocrine system. Withdrawal, long term side effects.

[HCStymie]

Anyone else have to deal with Adderall Toxicity? Adderall messing with your endocrine system? Not overdosing or to that extreme. But long term use where your body is dependent on the medication and there are long term side effects.

i.e. if you crash and out if you stop taking adderall, or have found long term use has affected your mood (decreased labido, get no joy from things you used to, decreased motivation or energy, don't want to go out any more, stress, anxiety, etc.), off balance of testosterone and/or estrogen or other hormones, restless leg syndrome, gynecomastia, or other long term side effects that don't just stop right away if you stop taking it.

Basically, your neurotransmitters get to be elevated and your brain tries to adjust that by doing things such as decreasing the number of receptors and other things. Eventually your brain has a hard time regulating certain neurotransmitters on its own. And other neurotransmitters and hormones are affected besides Norepinephrine, Dopamine, and Serotonin.

The solution is to "detox" and decrease your levels gradually and get off the meds. And let your brain try to readjust to managing your endocrine system on it's own. Problem is, I don't have 6 months to a year or more to do that. I have to keep working, which does not happen without Adderall. I'm a software engineer so my whole job is constant attention/concentration/reasoning.

Anyone find a way to manage the changes to your endocrine system from Adderall without having to stop working? Adderall and the effects on the body is not well enough studied and very few experts who know enough about it. Trying to find the right one or anyone is hard. I can try to focus on the specific neurotransmitters and hormones that are affected, but that might just cause the brain to counter adjust even more. And most things that affect those, have their own side effects.

[BlessedLady]

A friend of mine went through this. This only works with immediate release. About every two weeks decrease your Adderall by 2.5 mgs or a little less when you have lowered your dose. It takes time to do this. The longer you have taken it the longer it can take to get off of it. There will still be adjusting to do without any medication. Also talk with your doctor about other medications. Including ADHD medications that are not stimulants..

[HCStymie in reply to BlessedLady]

I have been able to dial back my dosage sometimes in the past. But even at a lower dose, the long term effects kept gradually increasing. Currently I have a lot of compounding factors. Such as other medications that make it hard to be on a regular schedule that I can dial back the dosage. And other factors like inconsistent sleep patterns. Some days I need to be more alert than others depending on what is scheduled. Other times I need to be alert in the evening for things. So I don't take the same amount each day, and don't take it at the same times. Small increments won't be possible at this time in my life.

And variations between brands is a huge factor. I got stuck for a bit with Aurolife/Aurobindo generic Adderall which is just about worthless. Was taking 120 to 140mg a day. Which was not as effective and didn't last as long as 50mg of Teva generic. The Adderall shortage will eventually end. So that will help make it easier to get the same brand, and avoid the bad ones. Aurobindo brand didn't do much for what I need adderall for, but don't know if it affected other peripheral endocrine functions or not. Didn't seem to, but no way to be sure.

Think my best bet is taking Strattera with the Adderall. Should make big enough a difference where I can actually pull back my daily dosage. At least for a while. About a year and a half or so and it starts to make the Adderall less effective (doesn't make sense medically to me) so I will have to stop it. Can try ritalin for a bit when the Adderall decreases to take place of more of the Adderall and see from there.

SSRIs and related meds have helped some people. But I need to confirm my neurotransmitter levels first which is difficult to do. I did try Wellbutrin with Adderall. Didn't do much and didn't like how I felt. Others might be better. But they all have side effects too.

Tyrosine, L-Dopa, D-Dopa can stimulate some of the same things as adderall, which can possibly take the place of Adderall to some degree for a bit. But again, their own side effects and can require other meds in conjunction.

People with ADHD don't necessarily have the same deficiency in the same neurotransmitters as each other. And those neurotransmitter test organizations try to sell you are bunk. They can't tell how much is in the brain. What is in the brain does not correlate to what is in the rest of the body. And then there is the reduction or increase of receptors, transmitter stores and a bunch of other factors. The stuff I am getting into is beyond most Endocrinologists to attempt to address.

And that is not even the whole story...Hence my dilemmas. Maybe someone has had some luck of their own they can share...

[G7BK]

Great question,

I think the question if put bluntly and over simply is: how do i deal with life when my neurotransmitters have been thrown in the air and how on earth do I get off this plane safely?

My first thought to play devils advocate, are you thinking clearly? - i say this because i fluxate and can get overly focussed on one thing, zero judgement my friend. i am also dubious about how safe it is to pop amphetamines everyday!

I take Vyvanse so. bit different but its all about neurotransmitters I guess.

When i was trialing different doses, it wasn't much fun when i just stopped taking them for a few days! (lesson learned).

My thoughts: Do your best to boost neurotransmitters naturally as that is the issue and be aware of your mood and fatigue and adjust your dose of the meds according to how you feel progressively; as we are all different.

If i was going to do it, i would say this to myself

- forget dopemine increasing foods we know the effects aren't noticeable (not to say they dont work) we need an alternative here that is noticeable.

So I would:

- Plan it, just like one of your projects - whys, whats, SWOT analyse it! whatever works, need a goal to score, milestones and stages with dates to see progress and ultimately have your reason why in stone. just spend 10 mins doing this

- Every single morning motivate, 'visualise', simply put your head in the place of life will be like this after i do this, like when i run and cant be bothered, i just go through the reasons why, and i then im in the zone and its good. Also watch something motivational every morning, even for just 5 minutes.

- Neurotransmitters are apparently made abundantly while we sleep, so maybe get crazy strict with a sleep routine and no stimulants 4-6 hrs before bed maybe?

- Rewards and look after yourself, have something to look forward to daily and book some tickets as a reward for this, simply frame it all positively will give you the control and not be a victim.

- Exercise within your current health limits, BUT don't push it, not the time to be tired, but exercise for the positive neurological balancing effects

- Meditate, but listen to guided ones, maybe just listening to your breath isn't a great idea at present

- Regular breaks at work, i'm at the computer all day, the day i started forcing breaks regardless of 'flow' or 'in the zone' was one of those eureka moments, screw 'flow' i'm not a computer, the results at work come for me when i look after myself yesterday and last week (flow is good of course but only on top of a healthy life).

- Obvious things we all know but don't always do, hydrate a lot and up the salt to avoid the headache, limit regular sugar, refined carbs or trans fats etc and eat for nutrition like us mammals are meant to = energy/no slump.

- Be grateful, When i'm really short of energy and motivation I list what im gratefull for, if im really not in a great place I have a folder on my computer with pictures of the 'the worst jobs in the world' man it just works for me sometimes to snap out of my thinking and remind me of reality.

Hope some of that acts as a reminder to some things that usually help?

Lastly! - Maybe you know this but i found it interesting: I read a piece recently; the psychologist said that neurotransmitters make us want a reward, they do not offer a reward. And that psychology and neurochemistry is very complex and labeling everything with 'negative dopemine claims' is completely false and a trend; our reward is nearly always opioid based NOT the reason we do things… So my thinking here and for us is; the pills we take mess with our drive to do things not inherently how we feel, I think this is an important angle to consider while navigating a drop in neurotransmitters, our drive that leads to things is effected, not the feelings, the opiods.

Good luck mate, PM me anytime and mayb question all your thinking while you roll through this time, but hopefully by upping your neurotransmitters naturally it will be a seemless process, Or maybe you are as healthy as an athlete, if so, maybe stay on the pills! 😂

Take it easy.

[Phianoposis33]

Damn..and I thought my sons 60mgXR was at the highest! Or maybe the fast acting is alot different than the XR?

Sorry I can't help much. Only know how adderal affected him. About 8 years on it and he kept telling his doctor it wasn't working. So instead of trying something new he kept raising the dosage until he was on the 60mg- then the anger started so add abilify, then anxiety started so add hydroxyzine until my son had a manic episode, police took him to the ER and they locked him in a room where he ended up with felony charges. The first thing the doctors did on the psych floor was take him off the adderal and hydroxyzine cold turkey. That's after 8 years on it. They added depakote. Spent 2 weeks there. I always thought you slowly weaned off this med..

It's been 3 months and he seems to be doing ok..but he also has bad hand tremors, sleeps alot, gaining weight, gynocamastia (arimedex helping) Recently joined a gym and seems better those days.

I'm not sure yet about this product..It's new..it's $$$ but it actually seems to be helping. Maybe placebo effect~ I don't know, but something you may want to investigate. We had to wait awhile to get it because of demand. Hope it helps.

apolloneuro.com/

[HCStymie in reply to Phianoposis33]

Sounds like his psychiatrist wasn't any good. Should have recognized the anger and anxiety as being symptoms of his neurotransmitters being out of whack from the meds. But then again, a shrink isn't an endocrinologist. Even then, endos don't seem to know much about Adderall and long term effects.

With the instant release (IR), my pique levels of amphetamine would be higher than your son's was. The extended release (XR) spreads the release out over I think it was something like 6 to 8 hours. But don't quote me on that. The 120 to 140 mg of the Aurobindo brand, no idea what my pique levels were, but it was not as effective as 50mg of a good brand. So the numbers are high but the stuff was so low quality that most of it wasn't being utilized.

The Abilify and Hydroxyzine just pushed your sons endocrine system levels too far out of bounds ultimately leading to his manic episode. Sounds like one or more things ended up to high but I really don't know much about this stuff. I looked up depakote. It's an anti seizure, convulsant. Which makes sense. As soon as he was off those other meds, his neurotransmitters would have tanked. And when they get really low, they can cause those types of disorders like tremors. Also for manic episodes.

I went cold turkey after the first year I was on Amphetamines, (Adderall, Dexedrine). Still had to take it 2 to 4 times a month for job interviews and what not. Took me about 6 months to normalize. But I crashed out pretty hard for the first couple months.

Is he getting regular blood and/or urine tests to see where he may have gaps in certain hormones etc? Arimedex can drop estrogen levels too low if the dose is too high, which can also cause lower motivation and energy and libido. gynocamastia is from estrogen dominance / low testosterone. Going to the gym should help even things out faster on that side of issues.

I have no doubt apolloneuro.com is just a gimmick. Your son is doing things to fix his issues. apolloneuro.com is probably just getting some credit for the effort he is putting in. But, if your son is into it, placebos can help just on their own. I did read that for people it can take upto a year or more to normal out if there isn't any permanent issues residing. 3 months is still only a short time in considering what he is recovering from. If the felony charges are not resolved yet, make sure his lawyer understands the role of the psychiatrist in all of this. In my opinion the shrink did not fully recognize and account for the issues the meds were causing. It is known that they need to be careful with meds that activate on the same neurotransmitters and related things which can compound the issue. In my opinion the shrink should have backed off on abilify instead of trying to treat the next disorder the meds were creating.

You can pretty much see my concerns. I know I can't get by without medication for the type of work I do. Other things I have tried were not strong enough. But amphetamines for me have too many side effects. And many of my side effects are what you see with a deficiency of things like certain neurotransmitters, hormones, or the mechanisms they work through. Then throw in other medications of other things that have side effects and it is hard to say how much of each is contributing to what. But the amphetamine has been a consistent issue for about 15 years so I am pretty sure most of the issue is from that for me.

When your son is ready, and if he needs ADHD meds, if a better shrink agrees, Strattera might be an option. It is a non-stimulant (reuptake inhibitor). Wasn't strong enough for me over time that I built up a tolerance fore it (in part due to lack of sleep). But for me, many of the side effects were positive and the opposite of amphetamines (stimulant). Also depending on his specific ADHD type and symptoms, there are many other meds on the market that are used for ADHD symptoms that are non stimulants.

[Phianoposis33]

His psychiatrist stinks even though he is affliated with a large psych hospital here. His words were "I guess the meds weren't working". .Ya think?? He is now seeing the one who treated him on the psych floor. He does get blood work done every 3 months- especially being on the depakote. He's also XXY.. applies testosterone gel daily..which is why he is on the arimedex..only 1 mg. Never knew stimulents can cause gynocamastia.

You seem to know your stuff!! I hope you find something to help or someone who can steer you in the right direction. If only it were easy..

[HCStymie in reply to Phianoposis33]

I had problems with tamoxifen trying to lower my estrogen. The result was it caused my body to convert more testosterone to estrogen trying to make up for it I guess. Then I was on Anastrozole which worked too well to lower my estrogen levels. When they are too low, they cause problems of their own. Due to events over the last year, my intake of Adderall increased. Long story as to why. Which made my testosterone even worse. 300 to 1000 is the typical normal range. Max dose of generic androgel and my last blood test I was at 67.

I did have one endocrine mystery solved. I was having high ACTH and Cortisol levels. Cortisol is highest in the morning and should tapper off into the afternoon. My afternoon levels were double the max of the normal range for 4pm. Turns out Adderall increases cortisol levels during the day. I assume by affecting ACTH which controls cortisol levels. High cortisol also decreases testosterone. There is more going on than that, but I did learn that much.

Currently not working while trying to get off Adderall. Have taken a hardcore dive into Amphetamine and Nootropics. Have found out that Modafinil is often prescribed to people recovering from Amphetamines/Methamphetamine addiction to alleviate withdrawal symptoms. It is also neuroprotective where as amphetamines are neurotoxic. Strattera is also neuroprotective and can help with getting off or reducing adderall, it helped me drop in the past from 60mg IR that wasn't working that well to 40mg that was working better than 60. Weird thing was after about 15 months, strattera actually started to reduce therapeutic effect when being taken. But when I stopped taking it, no negative effect and my therapeutic adderall level was reduced. Wellbutrin is also sometimes prescribed to help with Adderall crash/withdrawal on cessation. It is sometimes added onto adderall to boost therapeutic effects but does nothing if on moderate or high levels of adderall.

Memantine helps to potentiate adderall so somehow it must help to fix some of the damage done. I have started taking it myself. It is neuroprotective Like Modafinil and Strattera of the NMDA receptors which gets over excited by amphetamine and cause excitotoxic effects. Memantine is sometimes prescribed by psychiatrists to protect against some of the ways amphetamine is neurotoxic and to reduce tolerance.

Some things that help to stimulate the brain without negative effects. Fish oil believe it or not helps some people and it is very healthy. Can say it makes a difference each day for me but not sure if it works by itself or if positive effects is working in combination with adderall. Either way, worth taking. This brand is a walmart brand and is actually very good. There are a lot of variations but this one is the best by the brand. Take 4 a day. Better option is to get prescribed Lovaza prescription and take 4 a day like I do. walmart.com/ip/Spring-Valle...

Magnesium is very important. Most people in western cultures get too little each day. It is neuroprotective to a point. In the brain, calcium is often utilized in an excitatory way and mg in the opposite way. The NMDA receptor I mentioned is usually guarded by mg. Too much is bad. Recommend taking 250mg a day of a quality form. RDA is about 420mg for most men 31+ yrs old. There are over 2 dozen forms of it that can be consumed. Best are magnesium Bisglycinate, Threonate, or glycero-phosphate since they don't have laxative or antacid effects while also increasing serum levels in the blood. Adderall can deplete mg from cells

Calcium is important to have the right amount daily. Can check online based on age and sex for RDA from all sources. Think it is about 1000mg typically but body can only absorb about 500 at a time. Even more important is the ratio of magnesium to calcium. Too much calcium compared to mg can cause calcium to kick mg out of the cells in the brain. Too much mg is bad for a person. Target ratio of ca:mg is about 2.3:1 to 2.1:1but best to stay between 1.7:1 to 2.6:1 . from all sources

depakote I did look into since it is supposed to among other things help rebalance neurotransmitters. But expensive and hard to find the right doctor who knows enough about it.

If I get time I can add on more stuff that can help boost, fix, or protect the brain without the negative side effects of stims. But, they don't work as well. Still, better to need less ADHD meds with other stuff. In the mean time, look into antioxidants since much of the stress from stims is oxidative stress and antioxidants can help mitigate.