Out of control at school

[B2Walkie]

My kids are high energy. No surprise there. But when my three year old started preschool his teacher thought he was odd because he would pull the nap mat on top of him, stick his head in the floor fan and fall asleep. I already knew he liked compression, white noise and the feel of air blowing over his skin. She had never seen behavior like this before.

Then in pre-k at 4 years old he would get really mad and make these incredibly imaginative threats, clench his fists or take things out of other kids hands. The school started calling me nearly everyday because once he got upset he showed no remorse and stayed mad an especially long time after wards. When he was completely calm he would feel and express remorse, but they would never leave him alone long enough to calm all the way down, like 20-40 minutes is what it would take. When I would pick him up from school he would be intentionally provoking to all the kids in the car pool, pulling hair, kicking, spitting and wouldn’t stop. Then at home there would be an almost immediate meltdown over something that simply didn’t make any sense, like four crackers on his plate when he wanted five. And he would get mad then cry and I would hold him and he would be held by me for an hour. It almost always lasted exactly an hour. Then it’s like he would completely reset and be his normal self for the rest of the night. After a few months he began fighting going to school. He would beg and argue not to go, saying all they do at school is boring work papers and he hates it. Halfway through pre-k they told me they would not be letting him go to kindergarten because he only knew four of the letters of the alphabet and the numbers 1, 2 and 3. That didn’t sound right given the interactions I’d had with him. I checked, tested him myself without helping him and he knew 22 out of 26 letters of the alphabet and the numerals one to ten they had asked for him to show proficiency in. I also was getting phone calls nearly everyday for behavioral issues of aggression and threats. Observing him with his teacher, I noticed that she had no rapport with him. He would just ignore her if he didn’t want to do the activity.

Going into kindergarten at a new school he really wanted to please this teacher. They had a rapport, but she reported significant issues with his executive function skills and referred him for occupational therapy, speech therapy and a vision screening. We began the occupational therapy right away but it took four months to get the vision appointment. In the meantime I began getting phone calls nearly daily from the school again about aggression and inappropriate behavior. We had almost no behavior issues at home at this point, but as things got worse at school the aggression and conflict came home too. Everything became a fight. Everything. Halfway through the school year he was expelled.

Within days of this we found out that the vision issue he has is neurological and couldn’t be treated where we lived, so we moved to get treatment. We got set up with a local occupational therapist and enrolled him in a new school. I was upfront with the new school about previous schools challenges with him but still pretty skeptical that it was as bad as they said it was. I still had never seen him behave the way the schools report he had behaved.

We have been at the new school for four months and they have now suspended him again. Which is actually safer for him as The school keeps letting him elope out into the streets. He has about a half mile radius from the school at this point. They seem incapable of keeping him on campus.

Since he started going to school there they haven’t been able to keep him in the classroom ever. It’s the last month that he has widened the eloping to the community surrounding the school grounds. They report that when they keep him from eloping he becomes aggressive and violent. He has been suspended previously from this same school for violent behavior after he’d been there only a month.

During the summer before kindergarten i homeschooled him because they weren’t going to let him into kindergarten unless he showed sufficient academic proficiency. In between kindergartens I homeschooled him because I didn’t know we were going to need to move and he needed maintain the learning. What I found was that he had forgotten most of what he had known from the previous summer. Now that he has been suspended I am homeschooling him again because the school hasn’t said when/if he will be allowed back. I am again finding he has forgotten most of what he could do at the end of January. His teacher at this school tells me she has no idea what his academic level is because he is never in class, so she can rarely observe his abilities. We are four days into this suspension, the first day was rough behaviorally. He was sad missing his friends and anxious that he wouldn’t be allowed to go to first grade and he would be stuck in “boring kindergarten” he said in a voice of utmost disgust. The last three have been a return of the kid I know. The kid who has all but disappeared since he started school.

Does anybody have experience with this level of challenge at school that normalizes at home? Any help on how to make school safer for him?

Alternately, does anybody have success homeschooling while being a single parent needing to also earn income for the whole family?

Thanks

[poppysage]

I'm so sorry you have to go through this. It sounds scary and frustrating. Have you considered pursuing an IEP or 504 plan? Do you or your child have a therapist who can advocate for you and him? If your son is in public school, they're legally obligated to provide your child with a free and appropriate education. Unless you want to homeschool him, they can't just expel/suspend him and leave the situation for you to figure out on your own.

[B2Walkie in reply to poppysage]

Thanks, we have been going through the IEP evaluation process for months. Ever since we got to the school. The IEP he had previously couldn’t be used or this school couldn’t offer the same accommodations to him.

Now the IEP meeting to discuss the plan and out it in place has been postponed because the school says it needs to consult with the district about what might work for him.

My biggest concern is the fact that he is kept in fight/flight mode all day long at school. He cannot learn like that and what he does learn and bring home from school is cuss words he never had before and high stress hormones I spend all night and all weekend helping him try to get out of his system.

He’s been out now for four days and he’s the boy I know again. Rational and playful and pleasant. Not the provoking, boundary pushing aggressive and agitated child that comes home from school. So I am asking about anyone who has had experience homeschooling as a single parent because I am worried about the constant fight/flight adrenaline and stress hormones in his system all day, five days a week.

[poppysage in reply to B2Walkie]

I can understand why you want to help him get out of that fight/fight mode. It's great that at home, he's doing well, he feels safe. That's so important. I don't have any experience with homeschooling, it's not a road I want to go down personally but it makes sense you're leaning that direction given the circumstances.

[Knitting20projects]

I would ask your pediatrician for a developmental behavioral pediatrician referral. It sounds like he needs a careful assessment and honestly he sounds like he needs to be formally evaluated for autism in addition to having learning disability testing at that specialist appointment. He sounds like he might be sensory seeking given the nap mat & fan behavior. The elopement is concerning. Has he ever had a referral for your public school district IEP evaluation? He really sounds like he needs it, if that hasn’t been done. If the public school system cannot meet his needs, then your district should be explaining why. A private school will not be equipped to handle this behavior. And just because he can talk or seems to make good eye contact do not eliminate autism as a possible diagnosis. I’m sorry for posting something worrisome. But I have a son not diagnosed until 12 & was reassured too many times that he couldn’t have it because of those features. I have been there with our son practically getting expelled from 1 daycare, having epic tantrums, leaving work many times to get him—-it was sheer torture. It was among the most stressful things I’ve ever been through.

[B2Walkie in reply to Knitting20projects]

I have been working with the school to get an IEP and we have been referred for evaluation. What confuses me is his ability to function int he community or at home but his inability to function at school.

I have asked about autistic tendencies since he cannot abide having a substitute teacher, he forms close rapport with some adults while others he ignores entirely, when he is emotional he refuses eye contact, when he is angry he becomes non-verbal, and I have been told that the upcoming evaluation is comprehensive and will consider all possibilities and combinations.

He is definitely sensory seeking, and we have known that for a while. He is working with an occupational therapist regarding his SPD.

When he’s upset being held tightly by someone and letting their calm heartbeat calm his heartbeat is really helpful. I have just been told this is called co-regulation. The school is really struggling and honestly I don’t know why he gets so upset at school. He is also distraught when he doesn’t get to go because he is SUPER SOCIAL and loves playing with other kids and his friends.

I don’t want to hear it, but thanks for mentioning that some autism gets diagnosed at a later age. “Everyone” keeps saying that is he were autistic we would have noticed it when he was much younger.

As for LD it is possible. I have worked extensively with the LD population and my boy has such a good memory it’s possible he is masking what’s really going on. He is a whiz at maths and pretty good at reading for a kindergartner. He hates writing with a fiery passion. Which could be LD or just could be the lagging fine motor control skills. Or both.

I am getting really frustrated with all these school just giving up on him because he is curious and inquisitive and really smart. He loves learning but just struggles at school. A big part of it is the sitting still and waiting turns. He struggles like crazy with those!

[Knitting20projects in reply to B2Walkie]

I have been through several difficult life experiences (losing a parent to cancer, chronic illness myself that’s luckily better, etc) and nothing prepared me for the agony that is watching both my beloved children struggle to learn, function at school, make friends, etc. There is really nothing worse than feeling you can’t figure out what’s wrong, you don’t know what to do, school staff are befuddled, and nothing is improving. Not to mention the constant worry not only about today but about the future. I’m not saying at all that he has autism. Those evaluations can actually reveal a lot of underlying executive functioning deficits even if he doesn’t have ASD. Our son was actually seen by 2 child psychiatrists, a play therapist, a child psychologist (for 18 months), 3 pediatricians, many teachers—-none ever raised the possibility of autism. It took me paying $$$$ for an out of network child psychiatrist and point blank saying I was wondering about HF ASD to get my concerns of “something not quite detected” taken seriously. I would add that, because he was around many peers & talked to them, his social skills deficits weren’t noticed. However, he was often following kids around instead of starting conversations, or initiating conversations by asking questions about topics that interested him and not asking about topics that interested the other person. It can present more subtly than people realize. When I hear of a child having epic meltdowns, I wonder about it, because I ask if that child is rigid, frustrated things aren’t going a certain way, and at home could people be adjusting unconsciously to prevent meltdowns? I don’t know, of course. We were treading on eggshells & everything rotated around preventing him getting upset at home. It sounds like you’re not having to do that at home, which is good. I’m sending you big hugs. On a positive note, we have really improved our understanding of him, our expectations of his behavior, our relationship with him—all of these things—-since reframing things in light of that diagnosis.

[Knitting20projects in reply to B2Walkie]

PS to clarify what I said above, I don’t think most typical private or parochial schools can handle that type of behavior. There are a few specific schools for kids who are neurodivergent—tend to be $$$$ and occasionally school districts will pay for kids to go there a while if school district can’t meet child’s needs. We have a great one here and in my dreams our son would go there, but it’s $40,000/year. Nope!

[Aspen797]

I am so sorry that you and your child are struggling. Kids who struggle with anxiety, inflexibility, sensory issues, and/or understanding the social piece of things often struggle at school and do well at home—especially when their needs are not being addressed at school.

The school world is very demanding and overwhelming with so many sensory inputs, demands for personal flexibility and group play/work, expectations/demands that don’t seem logical and are given without explanation, social hierarchies that don’t make sense, etc. Kids who struggle with these skills are often (but not always) on the autism spectrum. A neuropsych eval (often out of pocket) or an assessment by a developmental behavioral pediatrician (covered by insurance) can help more thoroughly determine any needs and offer referrals to providers that can help. Assessment is key in determining the cause of behavior. It’s always a lagging skill, an unmet need. With the right therapies and accommodations in place, replacement behaviors are learned and things improve.

Schools are required to conduct a functional behavioral assessment and provide a behavioral intervention plan when a child who has/or is suspected of having a disability exhibits behavior that impedes learning. Clearly, being suspended and expelled for behavior meets this criteria. The law governing IEP’s limits the amount of time a child can be removed from their normal educational placement for disciplinary causes and places requirements on the school to evaluate whether the behavior is a result of the disability. If your child had an IEP, it is still in effect until the new school meets to craft a new one. The protections and requirements remain in effect from school to school.

The school is supposed to implement positive behavioral interventions and supports, including accommodations and related services like speech, OT, in addition to a behavior plan. The behavior plan should be based on the causes of the behaviors and how they might be reinforced/what unpleasant task might being avoided. Ideally, it should be developed by a certified behavioral analyst.

It doesn’t sound like any of that is happening. If you haven’t already, consider reaching out to your state’s Protection and Advocacy Agency, a federally authorized no-cost agency that provides education and legal advocacy to protect the rights of persons with disabilities, including kids like yours. Find yours here: ndrn.org/about/ndrn-member-.... Also consider reaching out to your state’s parent resource center for families of children with disabilities. They provide resources, information, training and non-legal advocacy. They are also federally funded and are no cost to you. Find yours here: parentcenterhub.org/find-yo.... The issue of disciplinary removals of children with disabilities is a big, big issue right now. Lots more info on it and legal requirements and protections is here: osepideasthatwork.org/feder....

[Hidden]

All I can say is that in ‘oppositional defiant’ often behaviour is present in one environment but not the other. That’s the most confusing thing.

I was told that often as kids grow older and they don’t get any help/ they evolve negatively and are ‘oppositional defiant’ everywhere and with everyone.

My son has always been good at school but at home he has been always oppositional with me and it felt very lonely as it was hard to believe for school (like their attitude was- that’s not our problem). But he has never been this challenging as your child. It’s just my son tells me he hates ‘work’ and I do expect my kids to work- study and read books and attend clubs and tuition etc.

I’d say your child may benefit from a screening for ADHD and from a medication. Often times parents say that non stimulant ADHD meds such as Intuniv calm kids at the same time.

[NYCmom2]

Both of my boys High functioning ASD (now 13) and ADHD (now 10) have had some of these same issues at their schools.

Neurodivergent kids can really struggle with the transitions, changes and demands of typical school days.

Can you get him a neuropsychological exam? I’m not sure which country you’re in to give you ideas on how to access this comprehensive testing.

[Eataash]

First of all, I would like to say that I hear you. I’m sure you have tried everything. I would also like to say that traditional schools are not always the best fit for neurodiverse kids. Has your child ever been assessed for any learning differences? Do they have an IEP? If those needs are not met and they are requiring a higher level of supervision, if it’s a public school, they are obligated to provide the appropriate level of instruction/supervision. They may fight you tooth and nail to pay for a alternative none public school, but if your school district has done it, it will be worth it for your child in the long run.

Is your child on medications?

For neurodiverse people it’s exhausting to kee it together for 8 hours or more.

I heard on average kids that are neurodiverse get 10,000 negative feedback for one positive feedback.

I can’t imagine your child would feel good about hearing constant negative feedback.

Document everything and keep all your exchanges with the school and or school district.

You can try hiring an education advocate, they are more affordable than hiring a lawyer.

Best of luck.

[Bookworm365]

Hi there. I am so sorry to hear about the challenges your son is having — I feel our family can relate.

Our son is also very much high energy and sensory seeking (largely proprioceptive and also auditory). He has *always* struggled to engage with peers socially but absolutely desires/craves it. We’ve done private speech therapy and occupational therapy to help with social skills and appropriate social language, etc., but, in pre-k, he would still approach peers by knocking down their tower of blocks or hitting/pushing, being physical. We see an LMHC and she believes most of his days at school were spent in fight or flight, so he wasn’t able to tap into any of the coping skills that had been taught to him (and he can rattle off if you ask him) in the moment he needed them. He also struggles significantly with transitions of any kind, and he was often eloping at school (sometimes making it outside the building).

At home, the physicality was much less. However, we were constantly battling over just daily routine things (time to brush teeth, let’s try to go potty before we leave for the park, etc.)

He had an IEP and functional behavior assessment plan at school for a year and a half (a full year of pre-k and the first semester of kindergarten) before we finally reached out to his pediatrician to do the Vanderbilt evaluation (adhd). He was nearly off the charts in all areas except anxiety and depression. The pediatrician started him on a stimulant and referred us to a child psychiatrist. The psychiatrist said our son has adhd in spades but also has a toe on the autism spectrum (as indicated by the sensory processing disorder, “social oddities” and the agitation seeming to come out in the form of aggression).

Our son takes a low dose of vyvanse each day (high doses of stimulant can exacerbate side effects for kiddos who don’t have cut and dry adhd) and a low low dose of Abilify. The Abilify has been an absolute game changer for us when it comes to smoothing out those transitions (we ask him to do something now and he almost always says ok and does it!) and it has brought down the aggression. It also increases his tolerance for frustration and, if he does get yo the point of becoming very frustrated, his come down to a calm state is a matter of a couple of minutes and he is always apologetic. The vyvanse has been critical in stopping the eloping and helping him stay (more) on task.

We still have work to do, but it feels good to make some progress and at least feel like he is able to tap into his thinking brain more than before. I hope this helps and might give you some idea as to where to go next.

ETA: I am not a single parent, but my husband and I both have jobs.

[Knitting20projects in reply to Bookworm365]

Interesting about the Abilify. I’m going to file that away as a possible idea for our 12 year old w ADHD/HF ASD

[Bookworm365 in reply to Knitting20projects]

It was a bit nerve-wracking to add it to the mix, but we want to get him to a good place at school and socially. I have been incredibly impressed so far with the benefits and no negative side effects for him. After a slight increase in dosage, we hope the effects will be sustainable for the long-term. 🤞🏼

[B2Walkie in reply to Bookworm365]

how did you find a pediatrician that could do all that?

[Bookworm365 in reply to B2Walkie]

Our pediatrician conducted the Vanderbilt assessment process and, based on the results and his belief that this would likely not just be resolved with a stimulant, recommended we find a child psychiatrist.