BTA and 'T3 does not cross the placenta'

[jimh111]

The BTA guidelines on liothyronine state 'T3 does not cross the placenta'. There is some truth in this in that type 3 deiodinase (D3) in placenta converts T3 to T2. However, they fail to point out that D3 also converts T4 to rT3. The transport of T3 and T4 across the placenta is very complex but the evidence is both hormones get from the mother to the foetus. There have been numrous successful pregnancies to mothers on liothyronine with very low fT4. I have sent the following email to the BTA asking for evidence.

Sense About Science - Ask For Evidence

Bijay,

The BTA 'Patient leaflet about the use of liothyronine (T3) in hypothyroidism' btf-thyroid.org/patient-lea... asserts 'L-T3 is not recommended in pregnancy since it does not cross the placenta'.

Please supply evidence that T3 does not cross the placenta and T4 does.

Background:

Many sources claim 'T3 does not cross the placenta' (and implicitly imply T4 does). In each case they cite a previous publication that makes the same assertion but none cite a study that shows T4 crosses the placenta and T3 does not. The 'evidence' seems to consist of 'Chinese wispers'.

Until the introduction of levothyroxine ALL babies were born to mothers on 'combination therapy', usually a combination of T3 and T4 from the mother's thyroid.

I am asking as part of the Ask for Evidence campaign and will share the response I get publicly.

Thank-you for your assistance,

Jim Harwood.

[SlowDragon Administrator]

There’s been a few members on here who have had successful pregnancy on T3 alone

[jimh111 in reply to SlowDragon]

I've indirectly heard of many from John Lowe and others. T3 and T4 getting to the foetus is incredibly complex but common sense confirms it's so. For example: - When does the foetus develop the ability to convert T4 to T3? The experiments tend to be done with donated placentas which I assume have developed significantly from the early stages of pregnancy. The BTA and other endocrine societies are making up stories to scare patients. Everyone throughout history (apart from those with levo monotherapy mothers) was born under combination therapy with some T3 coming from the mother's thyroid.

[waveylines in reply to jimh111]

I glad you are holding them to account. There seems to be a witch hunt onT3 products which is not back by scientific evidence. Am really not sure why they have become so anti T3! A lot of what they spout does not make sense.

[Zephyrbear in reply to waveylines]

I think, perhaps, that patients and even scientific evidence are proving all their pet theories about T3 that they’ve desperately clung to for so long totally wrong… and that won’t do at all for these fragile little egos!

[knitwitty in reply to Zephyrbear]

There's one particular person at the top of the BTA who thinks the majority of people on Levothyroxine don't have a problem, and don't even need Levothyroxine let alone T3, so heaven help those of us who need T3 !

I just don't understand some doctors !

[shaws Administrator in reply to knitwitty]

Maybe if we insist that the above 'particular person' of the BTA have their thyroid gland removed and they can then experience what many of us have had to go through in order for our body to function as normal.

Even though my TSH was 100 I was told I had no problems. I was feeling very unwell at that time and had never heard of hypothyroidism. Neither did any of those who were supposed' to be trained/qualified. Thank God I had internet connection.

I am grateful that Thyroiduk was just being established by Lyn Mynott around that time.

[knitwitty in reply to shaws]

I agree with every word Shaws, I have suggested many times that in the interests of science that many of these "experts" should volunteer have their thyroids removed to prove their own point that a little bit of Levothyroxine would fix them, but only give it too them when their TSH is nice and high. Following that they could be told that any residual problems are in the their heads !!!

I'm becoming quite sadistic in my old age !!

[shaws Administrator in reply to knitwitty]

Why is it that our 'original doctors' could diagnose a patient with a dysfunctional thyroid gland? - no blood tests back then but diagnosis was upon our clinical symptoms alone.

I was very, very fortunate to have consultations with Dr Gordon Skinner and Dr Barry Peatfield towards the end of their careers . Both were pursued as if they were criminals and their lives must have been very difficult and worried if they would lose their livelihoods.

Dr Peatfield resigned his Licence due to stress/strain but could still 'advise' us but could not prescribe.

His clinic saw many people who were desperate as he seemed to be the 'last' doctor who could diagnose and suggest how what they could do restore for health to improve.

Dr Skinner collapsed and died whilst at work and all of his staff were heartbroken, but afterwards his staff collated all of their 'scientific evidence' and they hoped to publish it. They couldn't yet because they didn't have sufficient money to do so. They stated that if it could be published it would 'shake up' how a dysfunctional thyroid gland is treated.

[knitwitty in reply to shaws]

Again I agree Shaws, doctors many years ago were trained to listen to their patients, and respond accordingly, that seems to have gone by the wayside , (now much of the prior knowledge has been lost ) especially as we seem to be so short of NHS staff in all settings .

I think that the main problem today seems to be that doctors want a quick fix for everything, consultations are so fast that patients do not have the time to detail their , often , numerous symptoms when they see a doctor, so many , many doctors lose the knowledge of what points their patients diagnosis to a thyroid problem. I was told on many occasions , we can only look at one symptom in a consultation, so the dots were never joined up , or not for many years.

This coupled with the fact that inadequate blood tests are held up as the gold standard for diagnosis of anything, again it's far easier to look at a blood test , even if it doesn't test the most important hormones and proudly tell the patient that everything is "normal ". Thus ignoring the ( by omission ) the most important diagnostic tool ( T3 and T4 levels alongside antibody and vitamin /mineral levels ).

Doctor training to recognise and treat Thyroid problem is , or appears to be woefully inadequate if this forum is anything to go by !!

[waveylines in reply to knitwitty]

I think the main problem today is doctors rely on their screens far too much, have been forced to follow standardised pathways and if they don't can be and are disciplined. Consequently many have lost or never acquired proper clinical skills.... Can't spot the clinical features of a hypothyroid patient even when it's blatantly obvious. Coupled with getting an actual face to face appointment is a lottery and a scarcity. Their love of sending text messages rather than consulting and lack of knowledge over pharma medicines makes contact from a doctor a truly scary prospect these days. Avoidance seems the best policy.....

[TSH110 in reply to waveylines]

I’d like to knit then some brains 🤣🤣🤣

I bet knitwitty would be good at it too!

[loueldhen in reply to TSH110]

....and a heart too please. Or at least some empathy.

[waveylines in reply to loueldhen]

Ah ha...... I think that got chucked out years ago.... Lol. Does it even exist? Eg I actually had a face to face app last week! First time in nearly four years. GP response was its well out of my area said she'd 'drop a line' to specialist (who I'd seen 5 months ago & were not interested when I raised it & told GP so) Consequence was a letter in post with re-referral telling me if I don't hear by mid Oct re app then I can ring the booking agent. Not a peep from GP! Given it was to do with management of sunny days... Means I'm on my own as usual & aren't they meant to consult me before referring on? Or has that been ditched too....

[TSH110 in reply to loueldhen]

Yes hearts a good suggestion but not sure how you knit empathy tho! & I suspect they’d not wear them either 😖😖😖

[shaws Administrator in reply to knitwitty]

Initially my TSH was 100 but GP phoned to tell me that I had no problems! He obviously had no idea about TSH.

My new GP has been very helpful and has increased my dose.

[knitwitty in reply to shaws]

Really glad you have a knowledgeable GP now, they are worth their weight in gold !

[jimh111 in reply to shaws]

I think your GP was bone idle, they could see the result was abnormal and didn’t bit her to check it out.

[TSH110 in reply to shaws]

The GP certainly had problems saying that - how utterly terrifying . Poor you it’s awful.

[waveylines in reply to shaws]

And to add to this Shaws is the machinary they bought for labs so they can do multiple assays. Turns out they're not very reliable. I was listening to a talk on B12 and that particular test is now only picking up 8%,of deficiencies!! Apparantly the labs are aware but dont know what to do....... Give me strength!!!

[shaws Administrator in reply to waveylines]

It's awful that someone 'supposed to be' medically trained is ignorant and it's so awful as my mother who had P.A. developed stomach cancer when she was told by GP that she needed no more injections.

When my mother was dying we had to plead for more pain relief.

This phrase is awful:-

"I was listening to a talk on B12 and that particular test is now only picking up 8%,of deficiencies!! "

[waveylines in reply to shaws]

So sorry to hear what happened to your Mum Shaws. Shocking &, so sad. Big Hugs xxYes indeed the B12 assay isn't reliable.... Misses many. Makes me feel that maybe mine would've been picked up much earlier and I wouldnt have the neurological damage I now have. Infact it was me who.pushed it all, self diagnosing. Deciding to self treat and telling my GP I was doing so. It took another 6 months to see neurologist and another nearly three months before nurse signed off my injection technique so they would then prescribe. I would've ended up in a wheelchair.

There rarely seems to be a consequence for late, inaporopriate or poor treatment. It's no wonder many of us who've been there learn we have to work stuff out for ourselves then tell them...

I can't tell you what a let down it all is. Can't fault surgery (though after care ure on ure own - GPs don't want to know and don't care.... My experience) or my cancer treatment but the rest off it amounts to negligence tbh.

[shaws Administrator in reply to waveylines]

I agree.

[TaraJR in reply to shaws]

That certain person has lost part/half of his thyroid. Let's see how things develop

[RedApple Administrator in reply to TaraJR]

Chances are, being male and probably no autoimmune involvement, he will do just fine on T4 only, if he ends up needing to supplement his existing partial thyroid. Which will be the ultimate proof of course. And even if he isn't 'just fine' he won't let on to anyone.

[TSH110 in reply to RedApple]

He’d cop for it when he’s old tho cos they don’t need any treatment according to him - that would be divine justice a TSH of over 20 - I bet he’d like that.

[Kowbie in reply to shaws]

That would be a very good idea, and not just the one to have there’s removed, I like it

[Zephyrbear in reply to knitwitty]

Would you be talking about the “Somatoform Kid” by any chance?

[knitwitty in reply to Zephyrbear]

I could be, but I haven't heard him called that before

[Zephyrbear in reply to knitwitty]

I made that up to avoid actually writing his name… won’t sully my keyboard with it.

[knitwitty in reply to Zephyrbear]

Inspired :) !!

[waveylines in reply to Zephyrbear]

Pretty sure this is the one who heads up Endo in my area..... Strangely I refused to be referred there when I had to see a NHS Endo in order to retain my prescription for NDT. If its the same one still tried to interfered.... But failed. That gives me great pleasure!!

[TSH110 in reply to Zephyrbear]

🤣🤣🤣

[Gingernut44 in reply to Zephyrbear]

No, that’s the other one, initials TW. The one who was bragging that he’d had a hemi thyroidectomy for Christmas initials are SP.

[waveylines in reply to Gingernut44]

Oh flip two of them? I've been hoping one in my area would retire soon.

[Gingernut44 in reply to waveylines]

They both need to disappear up their own exhaust pipe 😂😂😂

[TSH110 in reply to waveylines]

The S.Kid has grey hair so unless it’s a thyroid symptom he’s no spring chicken

[waveylines in reply to TSH110]

Some hope there then... T'other is in charge of medical training which is very scary.....

[TSH110 in reply to waveylines]

I hope the bright young things see through the rubbish he spouts and read the latest quality research. It’s scandalous a charlatan like that is being given carte blanche to corrupt young minds with thyroid trollop.

[TaraJR in reply to TSH110]

I'd like to think so. But the bright young things have you start learning from someone. And "he/they"are doing the teaching. Scary

[TSH110 in reply to TaraJR]

Eventually it will be seen for the rubbish it is, but I totally agree it is scary it’s brain washing.

[arTistapple]

I just want to say So Well Done jimh111.

[humanbean]

I have this link that should be of interest to any woman wanting to take NDT or T3 during pregnancy :

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

[Blissful]

Is there a test to show how the Deiodinases are functioning - or is it "deduction" e.g. X amount of T4 giving high RT3 = one of the enzymes being too much/too little?

[TSH110]

why would a foetus only need t4 - it is utter nonsense, just like they say we only need it and t3 is not necessary. Daft and not up to date on latest research and they made the darn stupid rules