Cyclical dips

[Murphysmum]

This is going to be a female- only post unless any men on the forum have any words of wisdom! 😂

So two years after starting my T3 journey I’m now feeling amazing... most of the time. Having tried various things and made some properly stoopid mistakes, I think now I know what I’m doing and what I need from my T3.

I’m struggling with one thing though. Having realised that I definitely need to supplement my progesterone to aid my thyroid hormone uptake (I’m 44), I’m struggling for the 12-14 days that I don’t use it.

I’m still menstruating (stuck with that for a while yet me thinks), so the advice is to stop using it for the first part of your cycle until ovulation. For the last couple of months though this means I don’t feel great, my motivation drops and I get dizzy spells.

If anyone has experience of progesterone replacement and can advise what I can do, I’d be grateful. Otherwise, what are people’s thoughts? Am I likely to be slightly “over” dosed because the hormone isn’t going anywhere, or am I under medicated because my body can’t use it? I’m inclined to think the latter but I’m not sure increasing my dose would help, as it’s not going to be utilised. My latest bloods show that I’m very slightly over medicated but as I feel so well I’m sticking with it. I’m trying to reduce my second dose slightly but as it’s so tiny it’s a bit hit or miss how much I take each time (trying to split 20mcg into 2.5mcg bits!)

What I really want is to be able to supplement all month long, but I don’t think that’s an option or sensible. I’m aware of options like the mirena coil but I can’t say I’m convinced that it wasn’t involved in my becoming ill in the first place, so I’m not keen. Plus, it’s synthetic hormone and I’m not keen on that.

Any ideas? I feel so great when I’m great now that I really take this couple of weeks feeling poorly again ill out.

Thanks in advance 😊

[Jazzw]

Hmm. Tricky!

You might have to experiment with a few more blood tests. Because as I understand it, T3 stimulates the release of progesterone from luteal cells. It stands to reason that your progesterone levels would be higher when you’re using the cream than during the days that you aren’t? (Think that makes sense—happy for others to check my logic ). So I guess what you’re experiencing during the non-progesterone-cream-assisted part of your cycle is effectively a huge drop in progesterone. Makes sense you’d notice it!

How much T3 are you taking? And at which point in your cycle did you do the last thyroid hormone test?

I’m just speculating at this point but wondering whether you might need to take fractionally more T3 during the part of your cycle when you aren’t using the cream?

(Had to edit this almost immediately as I did indeed use some faulty logic! So I had another go at explaining what I thought I meant... In fact, I think now I could be completely barking. ).

[Jazzw in reply to Jazzw]

Thinking about it some more, maybe it’s actually that you’d need to reduce your T3 dosage slightly during the part of the cycle that you’re using the cream...

[Murphysmum in reply to Jazzw]

😂 thanks - this is exactly where I’m at!!

More? Less?

I mean the obvious thing is just to try it but it would be lovely to hear people’s thoughts first.

I hadn’t actually thought about the action of the T3 on progesterone production, I kind of had it the other way around - the progesterone aided the uptake of T3.

Either way, I need to find a solution!

[Serendipitious in reply to Murphysmum]

Murphysmum,

I read here:

health-truth.com/the-relati...

"Progesterone aids in the retention of zinc and potassium in our cells. Zinc and potassium allow the thyroid hormone to enter the cell and then to be converted to the active form known as T3."

How much progesterone are you taking?

[Murphysmum in reply to Serendipitious]

Tbh I can’t remember! I’d need to check exactly what it is but it’s just the measured pump as recommended. It makes such a huge difference though, I can feel within a couple of days when I stop taking it.

Tbh my ferritin and folate could be a bit higher (heaven knows I’ve tried) and this will affect my monthly cycle too but I really really need the pg.

[Serendipitious in reply to Murphysmum]

Which progesterone cream are you using?

[Murphysmum in reply to Serendipitious]

Biovea 😉

[Serendipitious in reply to Murphysmum]

Interesting so this page here says each dose contains 20mg of progesterone per dose:

biovea.com/uk/product/detai...

Have you ever tried more than that?

This website recommends a lot more, 100-200mg which does sound like a lot 🤔

progesteronetherapy.com

[Murphysmum in reply to Serendipitious]

Good grief, I don’t think I have enough skin to spread that much in!

Ill have a read, thanks. I have wondered if it about reaching a level where it doesn’t so obviously drop when I stop for a couple of weeks.

[Serendipitious in reply to Murphysmum]

If the amount you’re using works for you then I’d stick with it. Everyone is different and more could be harmful for you.

[Murphysmum in reply to Serendipitious]

Having read through that page, I may increase slightly and see what happens. As mentioned on there, I do feel slightly like I’m fire fighting, not actually fixing the issues so maybe an increase would help.

I’ve been careful to keep an eye out for any side effects though so I’ll keep doing that. Thanks, it’s all useful reading 🙂

[Serendipitious in reply to Murphysmum]

All the best, let us know how it goes x

[Murphysmum in reply to Jazzw]

Oh, and I take 60mcg split twice 😉

[Murphysmum]

Ha ha! Yes actually that’s very true. My DH certainly could comment on mine 😂

[Murphysmum]

Thank you. I was wondering about a reduction earlier. And the only reason it popped into my head is that I’ve noticed around half an hour after taking my morning dose of T3 (doesn’t happen with the later dose), is when I get some dizzy spells or tend to feel a bit “off”. This used to be the time when I began T3 that I’d get crazy heart beats and palpitations that were quite scary initially, so it’s obviously the time when my meds kick in.

The pg-cortisol-T3 thing makes sense and oestrogen dominance is something I’ve struggled with since my thyroid issues started. In fact, with hindsight it was around before the problems really started but that definitely exacerbated things. Now with regular supplementing of pg I’ve got my thyroid levels sorted and the issues that oestrogen dominance causes are much less - I just need to find month long consistency!

I might be chasing the holy grail on that last point, and starting on the slippery slope toward 50 maybe I’ll never find it, but it’s worth a shot.

[london81 in reply to Murphysmum]

i can’t really advise but i’m in a similar position about really missing the progesterone cream when i stop it day 26-14. i just got my thyroid labs back ( on my profile) and weirdly my ft4 and ft3 are much lower. i decreases my ndt around 6 months ago after my female hormones and thyroid seemed to show over medication ( my shbg was high which i now understand from sttm site is quite common when on t3). my fsh and lh were high last year as was my ft4 and ft3 so i’ve over done it with reducing from 5.5-6 to 4.5, so now i’m taking it back upit’s really hard trying to navigate female sex hormones as well as thyroid and there doesn’t seem to be much good info out there!!

watching your post with interest!

thank you

[Murphysmum in reply to london81]

Isn’t it?!!

Last year for me was finding my ideal T3 dose, and I thought I had as I felt great but I started to notice the monthly correlation when I did the couch 2 5k. I’d feel great and have more in my legs until I hit days 28-3 and my energy levels just plummeted. I knew it wasn’t my dosing, that never changed. I did find out my testosterone was very low so that wasn’t helping either.

After (stupidly) trying pregnenolone for a while, I’ve got my thyroid doses and levels back on track but this female hormone interaction thing is really bugging me!

So to be clear, your bloods suggest your under during this time? I really should do some next month maybe, just to compare.

It’s odd because the dizzy spells I get tend to happen when I’m taking about too much, but the rest of the symptoms suggest I’m a bit low.

Ffs! It really is a minefield isn’t it? Can’t wait for menopause proper to kick in! 🤦🏼‍♀️

[london81 in reply to Murphysmum]

yes my ft4 is 4% and ft3 50% ( there is a little spreadsheet on my latest post). i went from 5.5 grains to 4.5 over the last 6 months as i understood progesterone increases t3 uptake?! may be true as my t3 isn’t too bad but my ft4 crashed. it’s as low as when i was unmedicated in 2014 ( i never had ft3 tested before starting ndt so hard to judge what’s going on there)

i also started weight training again 12 weeks ago after a year off, so that could account for why my body is needing more thyroid meds. maybe you becoming active has impacted your bodily needs too??

i’m getting a day 3 test this week and day 21 next month so i’ll let you know if anything of interest

i really suffer when i stop the pg cream on day 26 but i’m worried about taking it all month as i don’t want to play around with my hormones too much!

[Murphysmum in reply to london81]

I’m EXACTLY the same. I’d love to feel the same all month too but like you, I don’t think playing about with hormones is a very clever idea.

More activity definitely increases demand. At the start of last year, just pre lockdown as it tuned out, I saw my endo and at that point was taking 40mcg a day and said to her I thought I’d end up on around 50mcg as my activity levels were generally much better.

Fast forward to mid summer and C25K and I’m at 55 to feel well. After my latest little blip I’m now on 60 but as I say, my last bloods tell me that’s slightly over.

I stopped taking levo completely last year too so have no FT4 at all. I feel much better this way.

I thought that progesterone aided thyroid hormone uptake/use which I guess is kind of the same idea as you but on that theory it would mean I’m maybe over medicated over those days I’m not using pg cream? I need to do bloods I think... it’s the only way I’ll know.

You’re getting thyroid bloods days 3 & 21 or hormones? Yes, let me know how you get on, I’d be really interested to know.

See this is why we can’t approach doctors about this.. not only are they fairly clueless on thyroid matters (she says, making a sweeping generalisation 😂) but there’s no way they’d ‘get’ what we have going on here.

Thank goodness for this forum!

[london81 in reply to Murphysmum]

PS i used to get the heart palpitation and chest pain both when over and under medicated so i’m totally confused on that!

[Murphysmum in reply to london81]

Me too. It’s only as times gone on I can usually work out what’s happening!

[london81 in reply to Murphysmum]

i found this website called alva for menopause info. it was set up by a GP and her daughter who were shocked at the lack of info on menopause after she went into it after breast cancer. they can help with HRT for relatively low cost. it might be worth looking them up? i can’t do anything until i see where my sex hormones are at currently. i tried to post their website here but it wouldn’t let me. just google alva menopause

[Hidden]

Well both Male and Females need Progesterone it's that Least mentioned of the hormones but more important than either T or E as it's the Precursor to both of them.

Also, Progesterone works on Prostate issues no less!

[Murphysmum in reply to Hidden]

Well I guess this is true, maybe I was a bit premature with my women-only posting! I have testosterone issues too so I should know better!

[Dee8686]

Hi Murphysmum I'm just wondering where you ended up since this thread ten months ago? I've started taking progesterone and I am starting to see a pattern of better days generally 1-14 then crashing, so opposite to you, but wondering what you found out, if anything? Also what dose of progesterone cream you ended up taking since the progesteronetherapy site recommends such a high doseage. I have read the website with a lot of interest and keen to increase dose slowly. I'm very fatigued still (bedridden mostly) but recent hormone bloods showed me as having progesterone and estrogen both on the floor! Working on things now but keen to hear other experiences! Thanks

[Murphysmum in reply to Dee8686]

Haha! Funny timing - see my post from earlier today and that’ll probably answer your question!