I have just read some information about how T3 stimulates production of progesterone, and also, how progesterone increases thyroxine levels.
I wonder if this could be why when some of us increase t3 meds and lower t4 meds, end up still with increased ft4 levels. Just a thought 
I am always puzzled as to why my ft4 levels are going up on lowering levo and increasing t3.
I started suddenly with frequent night terrors in 2004.
Sleep terribly for the next 15 years despite everything I tried.
At the same time I started struggling with my weight, feeling tired and very constipated.
Fast forward to 2019 and I’m put on oestrogen HRT.
My thyroid prompty dies.
I start Thyroxine.
I then start Progesterone.
A few months later and hormone levels are still very low for Oestrogen and Progesterone despite HRT.
I double doses ( off my own back just to see).
Low and behold I sleep like a log! Every night and no night terrors
If I just take one I dont sleep well.
2 Progesterone tablets and no night terrors - sleep well and wake up refreshed x
It seems that doctors often put women on estrogen only, forgetting about progesterone, as they both have to be in balance with each other.
The most important is knowing the cause. It seems that for you it was the female hormones and thyroid giving up after being put on estrogen.
I have had undiagnosed Hashis since teens, which could cause low female hormones if not treated optimally.
Cuppaofcha, I think my Thyroid was dying from 2004 with some kind if relationship to Progesterone. 15 yrs later the Oestrogen inbalance finished it off.
I went through sleep studies and the lot. But no medic thought to check my Thyroid or my hormone levels in all those years! Absolutely ridiculous! All that suffering for no good reason x
It is quite unbelievable that no one checks it, I am very sorry you had to go through it.
I started to have sleep issues when my thyroid meds were drastically lowered, then again when I was put on levo only. I am now in a process to remove most of my levo add more t3. My endo believes that thyroxine can make you very, very hypo in some instances, majority of his patients take 50-75 mcg t4 and 30-40 mcg t3.
So far I can see that my PMS like symptoms are dissipating as I increase t3.
My TSH very high and I keep lowering my dose to sleep cuppa!! BUT I CANT SLEEP! I am so anxious with such hypo labs.
If you want to read more about natural progesterone and progesterone cream, and the differences between natural vs synthetic, dr john lee’s site is v informative johnleemd.com/cgi-johnleemd...
Hi Michelle, What a relief to find the medication that works for you. I think we are in the stone age of research into the complexity of female hormones! One thing that gets in the way of making sense of the role of progesterone currently is that when researchers were trying to create a synthetic substance that would work in some ways like progesterone as birth control, it was decided to call it a progestogen. It can, as in your case work brilliantly.
It can be taken by mouth, whereas progesterone, which is basically the same stuff as our body makes, though derived from yams, gets destroyed in the stomach, so needs to be used as cream or pessaries/ suppositories.
Dr Katharina Dalton, who was responsible for naming Premenstrual Syndrome explained why progestogens differ in many ways from progesterone.
I was helped by her over many years to manage PMS and also severe morning sickness. That was before my Hashimotos was diagnosed . I now wonder how much the PMS was a symptom of low thyroid.
The medical profession needs to lead the way in clarifying what the 2 different substances are best used for-they both have important uses. But I think most GPs would not have been taught the difference.
It isn’t only GPS who don’t know, most consultants, gynaecologists included don’t know either. Hooray that someone besides me does and that kitty’s work isn’t completely forgotten. She did know there was a connection between PMS and thyroid disturbance.
hey wilddeer, I can only speak from my experience that PMS has almost resolved for me as I increase my t3 meds, levo did nothing for me. I also had nausea with being hypo. I am a believer that an adequate dose of thyroid meds can restore female hormones and cortisol levels.
I’m nauseas too cuppaofcha now that I’m on no T3 and low t4 dose 
Have you decided what you will do about it?
Stay on my T4 and keep increasing
What were your issues when increasing your levo when you reverted back to more T4. Says you made it up to 112 with issues? Idk if I can tolerate my T4 after the T3.
Cuppa, another person is still dealing wit the anxiety from T3 months later! Damn cuppa, I am SWEATING
I take micronized progesterone only too - the estrogen gel makes me feel awful! Progesterone helps me sleep and keeps me from feeling bloated. And with 30 T3 and 75 T4 I feel closer to fine than I have in years. And I hit the sweet spot for me only by experimenting, slowly and carefully, following directions of this group, and also getting my supplements on track. I don't get blood tests though - I would rather feel well and not know
hey thyroqueen, I am also progressing to less levo and more t3. In your case, was it the 75+30 mcg that possibly helped you sleep or were you taking prog pill before you reached this combination?
I was taking the progesterone already, but with estrogen at the time - I think the fact that I found the amount of T3 that allowed me to move around during the day helped a lot. It took a slow process, and I was actually intending to go to much less T4, but as I was titrating I hit this point and it worked. Then I got off the estrogen as it makes me feel crappy but my gyno said I could stay on prog only. I can load the dishwasher and unload the washer on the same day now, which feels like a miracle to me!
Thank you, this is very very helpful. May I ask how you titrated (how much levo dropped and how much t3 increased, was it at the same time etc.)? I have now lowered my levo to 100 and increased t3 to 25 mcg, which is only by 2.5 mcg. The idea is to go down to 75 mcg t3 and add an adequate amount of t3, which should be around 35-37.5.
ah, I am sorry I don't remember - I just followed the forum instructions, keep the dose change low and the changes slow!
Do you split your T3 into different doses? My doctor has me taking 5mcg am and then 5 more around 2:00 pm. Just wondering if anyone else does it this way?
I have read on here that lots of people do that, however apparently the famous thyroid doctor used to take his huge dose all in the morning? I tried that and it worked well for me, better than trying to stagger the doses throughout the day.
I also take once daily, if I split I feel quite unwell with peaks and throughs all day
Yes, I often forget to take the second dose.
John Lee's work would suggest blood tests would be a useless measurement method anyway as the hormones carried in serum are bound by protein and are therefore not available to the cell receptors whatever levels they are showing - the more accurate way to measure is via a salivary test as that shows up what is available to the body. Symptoms and keeping a record can tell you a lot but at some stage a salivary test might be a good idea to make sure that everything is in balance. Sadly the conventional medical profession always seem to rely only on blood testing - I doubt they are even trained about salivary testing - and tell you everything is "normal". Not much of a surprise that people are allowed to get to a very pronounced stage of sickness indeed before an "abnormal" result turns up.
I know that oestrogen is not good for thyroid patients with under active thyroid - but not sure of the science of progesterone. I know that my testosterone is very low having hashimoto’s as well. What articles are you looking at? Im on a progesterone only pill.
I’m post T! Have Graves, and am on Estrogen cream.i sleep terribly, feel awful...
hey Peachykeen, what do you take for your thyroid after TT? Edit: I see you take levo only. After TT you should really be looking into a combination treatment of t3/t4 as you have lost the ability to convert t4 to t3 in your thyroid gland (this is where part of your t3 comes from when you are healthy).
I was on 100 mcg Levothyroxine a day
Dr just upped it to 125 mcg
I get regular knock out headaches nowadays , been building up
Do you know your results?
Being on a progestin pill is the opposite from being on natural progesterone. A progestin pill will actually shut down your thyroid. It takes up the receptor sites in your body and prevents ovulation. It can cause blood clots, cancer etc. You can't produce cortisol from progestin.
I am not sure of different actions based on formulations, I know one person who suffered from terrible symptoms after taking prog pill, but seems like most people here get some relief with it. Not sure prog pill supposed to help you produce cortisol, is it not the other way around (not sure how it works), cortisol is essential to produce progesterone? Another point is that prog cream can be dangerous as it accumulates in tissues, while prog pill doesn't. A lot of women feel great a first with cream and then become severely overdosed. I would like to see some studies or links on how progesterone in a pill shuts down your thyroid, very interesting.
Edit: utrogestan, micronised prog is derived from yams, so it seems bioidentical?
Yes only utrogestan and prometrium is natural in pill form and supports your thyroid. If you open up an utrogestan pill it is filled with progesterone cream. Utrogestan is 5 or 10 times stronger than progesterone creams. The pills I was talking about are provera etc these are all bad for your health and yes cortisol is made from progesterone. Without adequate progesterone you would have low cortisol and hypoglycemia. If this happened you wouldn't have glucose in your cells. You would become thyroid hormone resistant as T3 can't enter your cells without glucose. Progesterone controls blood sugar regulation.
Ah I see, my GP mentioned utrogestan years ago, and this makes sense, my cortisol was high because other doctors messed up my thyroid meds, that caused low prog at the time and also low estrogen. In terms of t3 getting into cells with inadequate glucose, is it the same process for t3 from thyroxine and straight t3? Thanks, I am keen to learn more.
Synthetic T3 raises blood sugar so gets into cells easier this is why people with low cortisol prefer T3 supplements. Yes it's why there are problems with levothyroxine. It has to convert but if cortisol is low it will pool or convert to reverse T3 due to lack of glucose in the cells. It is cortisol's job to break down protein into amino acids. That's why you have to eat plenty protein and carbs also play their part. Some interesting videos on how the adrenals work. I was surprised just how complex a job they actually do.
Thanks for the explanation. Very interesting! My cortisol thankfully is normal now, my deionidases don't work due to low tsh so I need t3 to bypass the whole process.
Excessive estrogen isn't good and if it causes dominance over progesterone I believe. If you have low estrogen, you certainly may need estrogen, but you should also be prescribed progesterone (unless it is high in range) to prevent estrogen dominance from occurring.
Progesterone and thyroid 
Progesterone-only contraceptive pill now available OTC yet Liothyronin/T3 is still like gold dust
estrogen and progesterone
Progesterone & hasimotos 
