T3 impossible to take on its own??? Need t4??

[Olsbird]

Hi all. Would appreciate any thoughts. My endo (who I like and is generally good and open minded) says as some cells use t4, you cannot just take t3. You have to have a background dose of t4. Anyone agree with this? I’ve seen loads of posts on here from people taking only t3. My concern is I need such a low dose that I don’t see how I can take both and he’s saying I have to if I want to take t3. Appreciate any thoughts on this. Any ideas what cells use t4? Perhaps I’m ignorant but I thought it was t3 that did all the work? Thanks all.

[MaisieGray]

Here's a paper regarding T4 and brain cells: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[christa1 in reply to MaisieGray]

maisiegrey, thank you for the link. but sadly I lost it half way through the first page. I always wanted to know the importance of t3 and t4. I got some of it!😉

I take both. and just upped my oroxin from 50 every day to 5 days and 100 on 2 days.

[Jazzw]

I’m not sure I can make head nor tail of the paper Maisie’s linked to (seems to be about the importance of T4 to the development of babies brains rather than the adult brain unless I missed something - and I probably did, too many big words )

In any case, I think I’d ask the doctor to put his money where his mouth is and explain which cells use T4 and can’t make use of T3. Cos I reckon he might not be able to answer...

Sounds like a brush off to me, I’m afraid.

[MaisieGray in reply to Jazzw]

No, not simply babies. Since posting the study, I've discovered that diogenes also posted it a couple of years ago, at which time he wrote:

"T4 has a role in the brain as well as T3

This article studying rats has shown that the brain's receptors for thyroid hormones predominate in those that are more sensitive to T4 than others elsewhere in the body. This is just to let those who have no thyroid and also take T3 only that this might not be optimal."

[Olsbird in reply to MaisieGray]

Thx. Will read tomorrow. 😀

[MaisieGray in reply to Olsbird]

Here is diogenes' thread if it might help to read it

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

[christa1]

olsbird, I would try some t4 if I was you...

I take t3 10mcg and t4 50.

but because my GP cut my t3 off I now take thiroid-s

1 grain and also upped my oroxine to 100 on Saturday and Sunday. later I might cut the thiroid-s in half and see how I feel.

maisiegray gave a pretty good link to read up on the importance of t4, even if you, like me, only understand a small fraction of it, it is worth to read.

x

[Sewnsew]

I have found this recently regarding T4. It is from another website so admin please delete if not allowed.

tiredthyroid.com/rt3-7.html

[Olsbird in reply to Sewnsew]

Thanks. V interesting. The whole reason I wanted t3 was I know it gets rid of my brain fog in a way ndt isn’t doing. But reading this that shouldn’t necessarily happen. The more I educate myself, the less anything makes sense. But I do seem to have promoted an interesting debate 😀😀

[Missydoo82 in reply to Olsbird]

I was taking NDT and had brain fog. I started adding a bit of t4 since I was also hyper on NDT and I find that my brain fog has cleared as well as hot flashes. My doctor wanted to put me on t3 only because he thinks that my hashimoto will only respond to t3. However I did not want to go on t3 only as it is the last resort when everything else failed and usually only if there are major disbalances with thyroid due to various reasons. It just makes sense that you have both t3 and t4 in your medication and it is just about finding the right balance. Some people need more t3 than t4 and some need more t4 than t3. You keep adjusting according to symptoms and the lab results. Thats my reasoning anyway.

[Maddux123 in reply to Olsbird]

I believe you, I also take t3 to help with the brain fog from T4 it works for me too don’t let anyone tell u how it feels every one is different I’m very I am very sensitive and allergic to this synthetic to you for medication I’m on and $83 gelcaps off of T4 was only three fillers ers and I’ve been on it for a week now in the brain fog as lesser than the synthetic but the deal is if he wants me on this T4 I have to be on some kind of T3, and so dar🤞 Try it works for me

[punkyb]

Well, I would think blood test results would decide what is necessary.

[Howard39 in reply to punkyb]

Hi

Not necessarily. Blood tests don’t show how you feel.

Everyone is so different. Some people simply can’t tolerate thyroxine and do better on t3 alone.

Also many of us have to factor in diet vitamins absorbtion and adrenal issues.

[punkyb in reply to Howard39]

Ohhhhh...

[shaws Administrator in reply to Howard39]

I am such a person in that T3 resolved all symptoms. Whereas T4 and NDT didn't.

[fiftyone]

I don't take T3 at all, just levo, T4. My T3 is always a good level. However, when I reduce my T4 dose, even slightly, I start to get hypo symptoms. I experience pulsatile tinnitus, slight hearing loss, disturbed sleep pattern, directly in line with my T4 dose. Although we are told T3 is the important measure, I am beginning to think T4, itself, has a part, somehow, in general wellness because I respond so quickly to loss of T4. I am no doctor, just a mere patient who has had my T4 dosed messed about by doctors over 6 months. I have noticed changes in wellness within two or three days after the T4 dose has been altered up or down. Obviously, my experience may not be yours or anyone else's, more to do with the way my body uses thyroid hormones.

[shaws Administrator in reply to fiftyone]

As you state, your T3 is always at a good level, so you are a good converter of T4 to T3.

[JacqS71]

I can only comment from personal experience. I went down the T3 only route for a year. Had been on T4 for 25 years. I felt worse and worse and didn’t make the connection. Then I found a site - tired thyroid. Talks about 10:1 ratio T4 t3. I have been on this 2 months and feel much much better. Waiting for blood tests. But I felt better reintroducing T4 and believe it is more than a storage hormone.

[Blossom13 in reply to JacqS71]

I found this site too and bought her book on kindle. It makes very interesting reading. I also was intrigued with the ratios, especially the 10:1 you mentioned and have done the same and do feel more stable. This is just my opinion, but T4 in some discussion groups can be made out to be like poison, but I also started to think that T4 has a place for some people and as you say, may be more than just a storage hormone.

[heathermr]

I am a just T3 person as I cannot take T4 as I dont have a TSH due to a head injury. I am functioning well after just T3 for well over 8 years and I have metabolic dementia (previously called hypothyroid dementia caused by years of mis management of my hypothyroidism). I don't have any T4 in my body and I take my T3 in small amounts throughout the day which keeps me functioning well and my brain clear. Interestingly I had some extensive physchometric tests done a year after my dementia diagnosis once I was on T3 only and they showed I had improved both brain function and memory. As long as I keep taking the T3 the dementia decline is very slow and I am still functioning well.

So Just T3 is right for some people, others it may not be, but these scientist are far too keen to lump us all together and come out with all sorts of rules and regulations. We are all infinately different at the end of the day and one magic pill does not suit us all!

Heather

[Angel_of_the_North in reply to heathermr]

I don't make TSH properly either due to genetic defect and possibly multiple head injuries, so I don't convert well. I find that I need to take some T4 every so often (every couple of months) and keep my free T4 at the low end of normal, otherwise I take T3 only. If I take more T4 my FT4 rises really fast, FT3 does not and I feel dire.

[JoyCA in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

Angel... can you please tell me which genetic defect effects not making TSH properly? I’ve recently had extensive genetic testing done and can look to see if I have those. I have difficulty converting T4 as well and so far no docs can figure me out. I’ve tried so many different combinations of T4/T3 different brands, ndt, supplements and still doubt my protocol is optimum. I can’t seem to tolerate T4 at all. Every doc I’ve been to wants to start with it and make it the focus and eventually we end up with T3 only. I currently take only 5mcg of T3 1x first thing in the morning. Without it I can’t function. Last time I added 25 mcg of T4 and I felt super sick. Laid on the sofa all day. Legs swelled really bad, headaches. Tried taking just half of that, same thing. Without the T3 my TSH is over 6. With it it came down to 4ish. Recently after adding folate and selenium it was 2.8. I Am heterozygous MTHFR.

[shaws Administrator in reply to JoyCA]

You could have a condition called 'Thyroid Hormone Resistance'.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/128...

web.archive.org/web/2010103...

[JoyCA in reply to shaws]

Shaws, I’d love to read the info at those links but can’t get them to work. ???

[shaws Administrator in reply to JoyCA]

I can open them so don't know why you're unable to.

[JoyCA in reply to shaws]

The links get cut off on my cell phone and nothing happens when I click them. I just discovered they work directly from the individual email. Reading that doesn’t sound like me either. I was put on very high doses of thyroid hormone a few times and had a horrible reaction. Intense pain in my neck, back, headaches that were debilitating and eye pain. My gums started bleeding constantly. It was horrible.The doc I saw kept insisting I needed even more so I stopped seeing her. Is it possible to be hyper sensitive as opposed to resistant? Or both somehow? I can’t tolerate more T3 either even though I still have hypo symptoms.

[Angel_of_the_North in reply to JoyCA]

Oh heck, I'd have to go and look up the exact thing, but it's problems with both TRH receptors and TSH Signalling for me. It looks like central hypothyroid with low normal free T4, low normal free T3 and low normal TSH, but free T4 sometimes rises to quite high in range (if I take any T4) with no change to free T3 or TSH - no change to TSH if it drops below range either. My TSH is always between about 0.3 and 0.7 (even when I wasn't on any meds). My feedback loop is just broken

[JoyCA in reply to Angel_of_the_North]

Hmmm... that doesn’t sound like me. Next time you take a look at those genetic markers I’d still like to know what they are. Thanks for the reply.

[Angel_of_the_North in reply to JoyCA]

Like I said, TRHR and PDE8B - TSH Signalling. I have excellent/perfect DIO1 and 2

[Maddux123]

I take 15mg of Armour that has both and 13 mg of T4

[helvella Administrator in reply to Maddux123]

I think you have not got the right numbers and units there. From Armour's own website:

¼ Grain (which is 15 milligrams)

T3 2.25 mcg

T4 9.5 mcg

armourthyroid.com/about-arm...

[Maddux123 in reply to helvella]

I live in the state so I have 15 mg of Armour Thyroid, and I’m taking 13 mg of TIROST , which is the gel capsule of Levo thyroid, And so far so good brain fog not too bad not too many side effects and I’m doing OK we will see you in another two weeks with my blood work does,Only reason that I am on armor is because I like it and then I mean I don’t like it but my body seems to adjust to it it was up to me when taking a medication at all but the T4 is so strong for me that I am a kind of cuts the brain fog strange enough it works

[helvella Administrator in reply to Maddux123]

Ah - I see. Sorry I mis-read your reply.

[radd]

Olsbird,

A small proportion of hypothyroid people appear to thrive on T3 only medication. Many survive on only T4 and some require both.

You require a low dose of thyroid hormone replacement ? .... You can take your amount of T4 and 2.5mg/5mg T3. Many do and Dr Peatfield claims a little additional T3 helps the T4 (we are medicating) convert so we end up with more T3 ( and essentially enough) than the small amount we are medicating.

There is also the line of thought that the body requires and utilises all thyroid hormones (T1,T2,T3, T4).

Also, thyroid antibodies may raise and lower according to Hashi attacks meaning you may have tested negative when you are in fact positive. That's the nature of Hashi.

[helvella Administrator in reply to radd]

I find it difficult to understand how anyone can survive of T3-only.

In healthy people, a considerable proportion of the thyroid hormone in our brains arrives as T4 and is converted within parts of the brain to T3.

However, when people report that they are fine on T3-only, I believe them.

My not understanding of how it can work well certainly doesn't mean anything except my understanding is inadequate!

[shaws Administrator in reply to helvella]

I have tried all of them over the years i.e. levo (which had no effect whatsoever except made me unable to get out of bed), several NDTs, T4/T3 but T3 works for me. It has resolved symptoms.

[radd in reply to helvella]

helvella,

Yes, it is truly mystifying and leads me to wonder if these people were always predisposed to require only T3 for well being, or if their demise into hypothyroidism led their bodies to adapt as illness took over.

If we administer hormones that aren’t required, or are required but are unable to be utilised due to an impaired cellular/tissue response, peripheral resistance or conversion inabilities/receptor defects/etc, etc … ) .. there are repercussions down the line.

So maybe it is because of one (or several of these multifactorial complications) that larger amounts of T3 mono therapy is not only tolerated but able to bring well being to those few people.

Also, taking T3 all in one go mystifies me further as a single dose (taken on an empty stomach) usually reaches peak circulating concentration in just two to three hours. Blood serum concentrations are then elevated for six to eight hours and then usually decline, necessitating another dose. So maybe the said complications above reduce the rapidity of onset, prolonging the duration of its action and making multi dosing unnecessary.

T3 always gives me a welcome lift so further mystifying are those who medicate their T3 dose at bedtime as say it helps them sleep. We are all different.

[helvella Administrator in reply to radd]

There are coastal locations where the high tide fills a lagoon. The level of that lagoon drops slowly and, most of the time, stays within a narrow band.

Is it that the high tide is needed to fill the lagoon - anything lower just doesn't achieve?

Do something drastic, like build a dam, and the lagoon simply disappears as the tide never reaches it.

[Hillwoman in reply to helvella]

That's a really good analogy.

[radd in reply to helvella]

As shaws says it's about reaching saturation point for some.

As for the rest ...... a tidal flow without too many spring tides and sediment, brings that gentle and much wanted ebb.

[JoyCA in reply to radd]

Yes, I wonder abt that too. Without that dose of T3 first thing in the morning I can’t get out of bed and start getting really depressed. However, I sure wish I had some in my system in the morning to make it easier to take that first dose. If it only lasts 6-8 hrs if I took it before sleeping it would be gone right? I haven’t been able to tolerate a second dose an hour after lunch so I’ve been afraid to try before bedtime thinking it would give me a boost and keep me awake.