T4-only; T3-T4 Combo, T3-only or NDT? How do yo... - Thyroid UK

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T4-only; T3-T4 Combo, T3-only or NDT? How do you know?

GKeith
GKeith

Decisions … decisions … decisions but the truth is we all got to make them & for ourselves, our own health when the dr.'s fail to do anything but say you're okay, your blood's are fine. So, is it T4-only, T4-T3 combo or NDT? I would like to get the (right, for me) T4-T3 combination but, alone with an endo who commiserates, at least, it is hard.

I have taken T3 only, for the past two days and skipped T4 completely & I actually feel a bit better. I was reducing the T4 from 75, while upping the T3 from a prescription 5mcg to 7.5 and I cut the T4 Synthroid pill in half because it was giving me heart palipatations until the past two nightsWednesday & Thursday night, as I took only T3, and when I woke up, at the usual palipatation time (about 3 hours after I ingest the T3) I barely felt anything. I'm really in unknown territory here, I know, but I so dislike T4 I am at my wit's end as to what to do about it. It gives me these heart palipatations which T3 appears not to, so......? I am in a bind, not sure what I will do but one thing I won't do is ask my doctor what to do; he took me off T4/T3 combo and stuck me on T4 only and when I called the Endo his sec/nurse said I had to call my primary doctor to get another appointment with him because of the insurance procedures. I very barely made it through last night, Thursday, (without taking some T4) because the tendency to “obey the doctor,” as my mother always said (as everyone always said, it is ingrained into our minds) kept ringing in my ears, along with the tinnitus, but I held fast, for some “unknown” reasoning, and woke up this morning feeling great. I took my temperature. I usually have ice-cold hands and feet early in the mornings and late in the evenings but not this morning. Also, I usually have a temperature anywhere from 94-95 to mid 96's. This morning it was 97.5, the highest I usually ever experience and that in the afternoon, not first thing in the morning.

I really can't discern if this is a “temporary” state or not but why would I (now) (re)take anymore T4?

I can only wonder what comes next. I realize T3 is said to be good for the heart and adrenals and that cortisol and hydrocortisone may help if I have adrenal fatigue but, right now, I'm just trying to figure out if I should take a low dose of T4 this evening or stick it out another night, the 3rd, on T3 alone?

66 Replies
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Hi GKeith, I don't know your history but are you saying that you have only taken T3 for two days? I take T3 only but also did ok on Naturethroid but never liked Synthroid. You know you still have lots of T4 IN your system right now. It has a half life of two weeks so I'm thinking you may eventually want to try a combination of both since you've had good results. On the other hand, you should choose what you think you can maintain. If you take only T3 and can get enough of it, I feel good about it. But you were taken off it so how will you obtain it? You will probably be taking 40 mcgs. or thereabouts.

Since you did poorly on Synthroid, you probably had a conversion problem but if you have no idea because no free T3 tests were done, it's going to be guesswork. They must have tested T3 when you were on it. What was the result? You need certain enzymes in your liver to make T3 from T4. You need enough thyroid peroxidase as well.

Can you get T3?

Others will have some suggestions as well.

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to Heloise

I had bloods for 7/14 & posted them here a day later. The TSH was 0.11 mIU/L from range of 0.40-4.50. T4 TOTAL was 7.4 mcg/dout of range 4.5-12.0; T4 FREE was 1.2 ng/dL from 0.8-1.8, T3 FREE was 3.3 pg/mL from 2.3-4.2 range and T3 TOTAL was 106 from range of 76-18.

Since the T3 only has been 4-days today I haven't got a blood test yet, on T3 only, but I don't know yet, what I'm going to do. If I tell my endo that I've "lost" my T3, he will probably not write me a prescription; it's free here, so I may have to go back on a low dose of T4 just to get it. I am seeing another GP on Monday, with the VA, & will try to get a govt. endo, just to see what he will do? Although I have many veteran friends who complain about the time wait, etc. but two days & I'll see. I think I'm going to stay on T3 only for now but only wonder what the bloods will show on that?

Heloise
Heloise
in reply to GKeith

That's a good question but you have too many unknowns. Your T4 is dissipating and your addition of T3 is miniscule. I suspect you are not going to feel very good in a short time. Your results show that you are too low in both but enough to lower your TSH. What are the chances of getting natural desiccated thyroid hormone like Naturethroid although they had a problem with supplies. I can get you a list of what is available. Would you consider self medicating and ordering outside the UK?

I posted this article which is very precise about thyroid hormones before and it might give you an idea of how to handle this. drjockers.com/beat-hypothyr...

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to Heloise

I am in the U.S. of A, where presidents are jackasses and jackasses are on the Republican Party's flag. How do you get NDT or any drugs, through the mail or? I don't know if I'd trust the mail for thyroid drugs; much rather have a compounding pharmacy. What do you mean by my T4 is dissipating, disappearing, to where? I'm too low in both what T4 & T3?

Heloise
Heloise
in reply to GKeith

I'm in NY where Hillary won, haha. Oh well. In a way, the prez is getting down and dirty where all these dictators reside so maybe he'll prove something. The last republican got us into a horrendous, wasteful, calamitous war. Why don't people learn.

May I ask if you are male or female? I'm kind of assuming female but the vet thing sounds male.

When you began taking levo, it was building to a certain level and without any increases it was being maintained as long as you took the same dose you were on. When you lowered your dose the level in your system began dropping and within several months you had NO levo in your system. You have essentially used up your stores unless your own thyroid is producing something. It is possible if you stop having the same conditions that caused the problem, your thyroid could potentially begin producing hormone again.

Do you know how to look for a private message? At the top where it says "chat".

Heloise
Heloise
in reply to GKeith

I was thinking about progesterone when I asked the question. Estrogen dominance can prohibit thyroid and actually men can also have too much estrogen since it's in many different food and also in the pesticides used on crops. Glyphosate has a bad effect on the stomach and Round Up or Agent Orange, whatever you want to call it has exponentially increased by millions of pounds even being sprayed in agriculture even after the crop is harvested. We have a very unhealthy environment for our bodies to deal with. I won't even go into how our brains are involved.

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to Heloise

If what you say is true: When you began taking levo, it was building to a certain level and without any increases it was being maintained as long as you took the same dose you were on. When you lowered your dose the level in your system began dropping and within several months you had NO levo in your system. You have essentially used up your stores unless your own thyroid is producing something. It is possible if you stop having the same conditions that caused the problem, your thyroid could potentially begin producing hormone again.

If this is true, shouldn't I be able to "prove it," to myself by taking the half-pills of .75 MCG and add it to a whole .75MCG, which would be about 112.5 MCG, correct? I am willing to try (just) about anything to find my correct dose. Do you really think this would work? Because I am in a process of trying to figure this out. I am a writer and this is quite an (unbelievable, almost) story that would positively show the absolute "worth" (less than Donald Trump telling me the correct dose) of all these GP's. This is worth pursuing if it is true? What do you think I should do?

Heloise
Heloise
in reply to GKeith

I don't understand why you want to go back to Synthroid. I've read parts of the thread you posted and you saw how many had problems with T4 including yourself.

The problem is the conversion process. You need several enzymes to work on T4 which could be your problem but whatever, if you want to pursue this. You can increase by half a pill until you get your FT4 and FT3 in the upper ranges or where you feel good. This might take about three months.

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to Heloise

I feel good now, on T3 alone. The thing is I have ice-cold hands and feet and temps near 95, 96 in the morning & late evenings but not since I took T3 alone, probably because T3 increases your metabolism, right?

My only desire is to fix something when it's broken and my thyroid is broken; all I want is the quickest way to fix it: if that way is take a higher T4 than that's what I would do if it's take NDT, I would do it but the problem is this: I don't want to go straight to NDT if I haven't first addressed my adrenals or why no doctor ever increased my T4 and if it's just a T4 increase, 1 pill, of course, I would do that. Why would I not? I know very well that T4 turns into T3 once in the bloodstream and if I had an under-dose of T4 and can correct that simply by upping the strength, the mcg, I would want to do it. My whole thing is now because I'm in a hurry and the doc's have been ignoring my problems forever.

If what you said is possible than I will look into it.

Heloise
Heloise
in reply to GKeith

People are led to believe that hypothyroidism is simply a result of a dysfunctional thyroid gland.

But there’s so much more to it than that.

With hypothyroidism, you can’t just look at your thyroid gland alone.

You have to look at your entire Thyroid Hormone Pathway.

When addressing your entire Thyroid Hormone Pathway, we need to evaluate if your poor thyroid function is the result of…

Your thyroid gland being blocked from releasing thyroid hormone.

Your liver not being able to convert your thyroid hormone into the active form.

Your carrier proteins not being able to transport your thyroid hormone to where it needs to go.

Your cells receptors being blocked from allowing thyroid hormone into your cells.

Your cells not being able to use what thyroid hormone you do have available.

Your hypothyroidism can be caused by any one of these problems with your Thyroid Hormone Pathway.

Most hypothyroid people are dealing with a number of these Thyroid Hormone Pathway problems.

Not just one. forefront health

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to Heloise

Okay, but my problem(s) are simple, or at least to me they are, and as the doctors have all proved themselves to me, to be simpletons, I will state thusly: It is my comprehension that in the hypothalamus, the brain, there is a pituitary gland that sends messages out to the other body parts and then it (the pituitary gland) sends out a half-dozen or more hormones, including the growth hormone, the adrenal gland hormones, ACTH, but it also sends out TRH, A HORMONE THAT THEN TRIGGERS & SENDS OUT TSH, yeah, the Thyroid-stimulating hormone, which regulates all our metabolism, energy & growth, this is the one that the doctors all so praise and bow down to, glance at the number & say: you're fine, here, here's a prescription for Lexipro. Okay, the piututary is the sender, it releases the hormones, it's a small pea-sized gland about the size of a GP's entire brain (just kidding) and the Thyroid Gland is, let's say, the catcher, which then sends to the liver, what we're concerned with, the T4, so it can send it into the bloodstream converted to T3. I know these glands can become cancerous, but, for this post, I skip over this, assuming I don't have it.

This gland also produces PIH, aka dopamine, which doctors fed to Muhammad Ali, along with other pills before he fought Larry Holmes, why, only the idiot doctors must know?

Anyway, that aside, the thyroid sends the liver the T4 you ingest which then sends it out into the bloodstream to turn into T3, if it's working correctly, but if, as you say, the dose is too little it stops and waits until another dose comes in, then sends out what? T3? Or does it just stand around waiting for the proper dose, which, I imagine, would then turn it into Reverse T3, if enough doses come in short, say my .88 mcg, when it should be, say, 125 mcg?

I'm saying that if I have Hypothyroidism (I do) and have begun on said .88 mcg of T-4-only but over 27-28 years the dose was never changed by any of the four GP's who have written the prescriptions for the T4-only .88 mcg pill, it was (only) because they never once bothered to ask me “how do you feel,” or do you sleep good? Do you have cold extremities, a light intolerance at night, noise intolerance, etc. and all because they are interested in only glancing, if that, at the bloods and then dismissing you to make more money. Here, in Florida, the home of the Trump palace getaway, hideaway, these doctors are slaves, literally, to Big Pharma, and insurance companies. They labor (little) under a Capitation system, a form of the vilest Capitalism yet practiced: which stated, plainly, says that they, the docs, are paid a LUMP SUM OF BEN FRANKLINS at the end of the year, after they have reported their (likely) number oif patients and their (average) cost per patient. In other words, the less they spend (charge the insurance company) the more (money) they (the idiots) make (net profits).

Okay, so my question is this: Do you think (believe) that if I go and tell my endo to up my dose of T4 it will turn it into T3? And how would he figure the correct dose, without doing as I am, experimenting with different doses, which should have been done years and years ago? I am stymied but, if my adrenals check out as good and everything else also, cortisol etc. would a simple raising of T4, along with 4-1, 5-1 dose of T3 work? This considers all the upsets you mentioned to be cleared.

Heloise
Heloise
in reply to GKeith

I think you have skipped a few steps. Right, big pharma has used capitalism as their chief ally to our detriment. Call it sin, call it corruption; there is too much of it in this world. There is no guarantee that T4 will eventually become T3. stopthethyroidmadness.com/t...

How the thyroid works. health.howstuffworks.com/hu...

Trial and error by your doctor or by you is usually the way it goes if all you want to do is replace thyroid hormone. This is not the same as trying to cure your condition or minimize your autoimmune attacks and/or antibodies.

You are right about adrenals. If you are in a chronic fight or flight you cannot attain homeostasis and that means you will not be completely well.

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to Heloise

From my "understanding" of hypothyroidism you can never "cure" it; as my understanding of "cured" would be you no longer have to take any pills. So, exactly what do you mean? Do you know, or can you point to, anyone, any human being who has had (been diagnosed and taken T4, T3 or both for (any number) of years who has been "cured?" i.e.: takes no pills whatsoever?

Heloise
Heloise
in reply to GKeith

You have to understand that very few people are attempting to "cure" their condition but I've seen a woman in a wheelchair with MS who could ride her bike for twenty miles after therapies. I would like to see a mindset where everyone works to rid themselves of autoimmune conditions. I realize at our age after decades we probably can't restore our thyroid gland but did you know that we have just as many new brain cells as a young person? The body is constantly being renewed and displaces old cells. There is something about telomeres that pertain to how long they last. If you watch any of Dr. John Bergman's videos he always looks to restoration of the body. If it only takes one pill a day to make me feel great because I've established healthy habits, that is enough for me.

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to Heloise

Well, I agree that autoimmune diseases should be addressed, and by the patient also but, then again, how does one cure a disease that actually uses your immune system to attack itself? Obviously there has to be something besides, I would imagine, just a natural way of curing this phenomenon would (almost) be too difficult for any one person. Maybe with enough knowledge, though, you could do it. After all: "give me a lever big enough and I shall move the world."

Heloise
Heloise
in reply to GKeith

Your immune system is not attacking itself. It is attacking what is perceived as a foreign protein. First you need a leaky gut for those proteins to enter the bloodstream. They would not be there except that gut lining has been compromised by several elements. One is gluten which resembles your thyroid tissue, another is cortisol which shuts down the ileocecal valve. Glyphosate, the toxin used on crops is also known to injure the gut lining. So, the immune system is doing exactly what it is designed to do. Would you use a lawn mower to remove snow? But you can't blame the mower for not being able to. Shutting down the immune system should be used judiciously in my opinion.

We're brainwashed in a way and you can break through some of the tradition but isn't easy. It is always ridiculed at first, isn't it?

I began years ago at a website where the doctor had his medical license taken away after 35 years of practice simply because he was using alternative therapies. I followed the conversation for ten years and it was easy to see what was happening in medicine and the ugly hostility toward anything that encroached their right to all the money. I've watched so many of my friends deteriorate which certainly was encouraged because of pharmaceuticals. It's partly our own fault because we don't want to change our lifestyle or make sacrifices for our health. This generation is the unhealthiest of all.

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to Heloise

I am going to address these problems ... in print ... soon as I (physically) can.

There's no way you can know in advance what is going to suit you. You have to try things for yourself. There's no point in me telling anyone NDT is poisson, just because it didn't suit me, because it suits a hell of a lot of people. Same goes for levo. I had to go through the whole lot, and many different brands and doses, before I found that T3 only was the way to go for me.

I suppose I was lucky in that my entire family had a healthy disrespect for doctors when I was growing up. So, I never felt the urge to 'obey' them! I did, however, expect them to know more than they actually do - that came as a shock! But, I'm quite happy, now to go my own way and self-treat. Plenty of people do very well on T3 only. There's no proof that T4 actually does anything other than wait to be turned into T3. And if you can't convert it, is there any point in taking T4? No-one can answer that with any authority. It's something very individual. Some people feel better when taking a little T4. But, you will have to be on T3 only for a while to know if you are one of those people.

So, continue experimenting and listening to your body. You're doing well! You've taken the plunge, now you just have to keep swimming. :D

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

Brother,

I know you (appear to be) very knowledgeable and appreciate your concern because I, for one, read between the lines, and know you mean what you say. What do you think about the post I sent to T3 sortedme? I really am stressed about this and have a lot of anxiety due to having T4 "fix" my hypo for probably 27 years and that is a very long time. The "problem" actually began for me about 6-months ago, when, in Switzerland, with my wife, vacation in her hometown, I made a "decision," after experiencing a very healthy diet compared to mine (all Americans) and totally went off all (literally, I am an extremist about such things) processed sugar. I replaced it with honey and replaced candy bars and cookies, my favorites, with grapes, raisins, watermelon, etc. but I got ear-splitting headaches (which, I later realized were sugar-withdrawal symptoms) and, to make matters worse (I now believe) I continued to take my .88 mcg Levothroid, never once thinking, or even having the slightest hint that the T4 could (actually) be the problem? I never doubted it because, obviously, it (T4) was the "drug" that had "saved" me from hypo.

Now, as I think back (a bad thing to do, you can never go back) I realize I may have been "killing" myself with no need of anyone else's help, the T4 did it easily enough. This doctor "mistification" so many of us labor under had captured me, that, plus 27-28 years of health. I still have a hard time comprehending this because it (T4) "worked" for so long. What happened? I'm 72 years old now, so is that it? I mean, what else could it be? I'd be very interested, greygoose, in your input?

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

It could be all sorts of things. Your conversion has got worse, perhaps. Perhaps your thyroid has got worse. Do you have Hashi's? I can't remember. These things happen and very often we never find out why, we just have to try new things to see what else will work

Age doubtless plays a part, because hormone production slows down in every gland. Could be - and I'm just surmising - that other hormones decreased, but you T4 was still the same, because you were still taking the same dose of levo, and the delicate balance between the hormones went awry.

But, I very much doubt levo was killing you. At the worse you were just under-medicated. What else could it possibly do?

So, your post to T3curedme...

He put me on 75 mcg of T4 and 5mcg of T3. I already knew that NDT has a 4 to 1 ratio and here he was giving me 15 to 1 but I took it ... for 2 weeks and had palpitations right from the get-go

So, how much T4 were you taking before he reduced it? He was right to start you on 5 mcg T3. You need to start low and increase slowly, let the body get used to it. But, could be he reduced your T4 by too much, they often do that because they're useless at maths! Forget ratios! Ratios are for healthy people. They have very little relevance for hypos - what sort of a ratio is T3 only? We forget them where that is concerned. Palpitations are often due to under-medication, not just over-medication.

I then cut the Synthroid pills (which were, I believe, giving me palpitations) in half.

Doubtful the Synthroid was causing the palps.

The Synthroid is synthetic and he prescribed a generic T3.

Don't know what you're getting at, there. All T3 is also synthetic. Are you saying that maybe the brands didn't match? I don't think that's a consideration. However, the fillers in certain brands may not be right for you. In which case, you need to try other brands/generics. But I don't think that mixing a brand with a generic is necessarily a problem.

So, why do I, now, after 28-years on T4 only, respond so well to T3-only?

I think the only answer to that question is : because you do. And, be thankful that you do! Although, to be honest, it's early days, yet. But, there's not much point in questioning everything when there's nobody to give you answers. Doctors don't know anything about it. And I doubt anybody on here has ever asked themselves that question. And, why is it so important, anyway? Could be something to do with an aging pituitary or hypothalamus. Who knows. To be honest, you sound as if you suspect some dastardly conspiracy! lol

I certainly don't feel as if I am going (back) to taking (any) T4 anytime soon, unless it is a very, very low dose.

Let me tell you my story… I was started on T4 only, like most people. Before my diagnosis, I hadn't had much in the way of symptoms. Losing some hair, putting on a ton of weight… That was about it, really. But, after I started on levo only, all these horrible symptoms came rushing in on me and I felt dreadful! My endo was no help. She said it was 'all down to my negative attitude'. Thank you, Sigmund, don't call us, we'll call you!

So, long story short, changed endos and was put on T4+T3. Felt so much better! But, by then, I'd started reading on-line and set my heart on Armour. Found a doctor to prescribe it for me and it was the biggest mistake I ever made! NDT made me so ill! So, after a lot of messing around, I finally found out that I was best on T3 only. For ages, I thought it was because I was a poor converter, and swore never to touch levo again! But, recently, when I looked over my old blood test results, I find that I was converting perfectly. It was just that any sort of T4 made me ill.

Fast forward to earlier this year, and two of my T3-only friends had decided - for their own reasons - to add in a little T4. I resisted. No, I could never, ever do that! But, it didn't seem to do them any harm, so I got curious. What would happen if I did the same? So, finally, I got hold of some T4 and tried. I added in 25 mcg and held my breath. Nothing happened. I felt well. Perhaps not any better than I was on T3 only, but certainly not worse. After six weeks, I went up to 50 mcg - adjusting my T3 accordingly - but, no. That wasn't good. I went back to 25 mcg, and been on it ever since.

My theory is that I had some hormone resistance at a cellular level - because I was on a pretty high dose of T3 only, at one point! Now, I take a lot less, so perhaps I'm not as resistant as I was, and for that reason can tolerate the T4, now. But, I don't really know if there's a connection. :)

So many things we don't know - nobody knows. We don't know if T4 has any purpose apart from waiting to be converted to T3. We don't know what T2 and T1 - or even rT3 - really do. I wonder if we'll ever know, or will we just have to take it on trust that Mother Nature knows what she's doing and that everything has a place in the Universe, even if we don't know what that place is? It's all very well to have a questioning mind, if there's someone to answer the questions. If not, it can be awfully frustrating! :)

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

So, your post to T3curedme...

So, how much T4 were you taking before he reduced it? He was right to start you on 5 mcg T3. You need to start low and increase slowly, let the body get used to it. But, could be he reduced your T4 by too much, they often do that because they're useless at maths! Forget ratios! Ratios are for healthy people. They have very little relevance for hypos - what sort of a ratio is T3 only? We forget them where that is concerned. Palpitations are often due to under-medication, not just over-medication.

I was on .88 mcg of Levothroid

I then cut the Synthroid pills (which were, I believe, giving me palpitations) in half.

The palps lessened with T3 only.

The Synthroid is synthetic and he prescribed a generic T3.

Agreed, I meant the fillers.

So, why do I, now, after 28-years on T4 only, respond so well to T3-only?

I think the only answer to that question is : because you do. And, be thankful that you do! Although, to be honest, it's early days, yet. But, there's not much point in questioning everything when there's nobody to give you answers. Doctors don't know anything about it. And I doubt anybody on here has ever asked themselves that question. And, why is it so important, anyway? Could be something to do with an aging pituitary or hypothalamus. Who knows. To be honest, you sound as if you suspect some dastardly conspiracy! Lol

Well brother, the only conspiracy would be the doctors. I think every single Hypo patient should get together, get all the endo (in the world) in one large group and demand that: THEY BE EDUCATED PROPERLY!

I certainly don't feel as if I am going (back) to taking (any) T4 anytime soon, unless it is a very, very low dose.

Let me tell you my story… I was started on T4 only, like most people. Before my diagnosis, I hadn't had much in the way of symptoms. Losing some hair, putting on a ton of weight… That was about it, really. But, after I started on levo only, all these horrible symptoms came rushing in on me and I felt dreadful! My endo was no help. She said it was 'all down to my negative attitude'. Thank you, Sigmund, don't call us, we'll call you!

So, long story short, changed endos and was put on T4+T3. Felt so much better! But, by then, I'd started reading on-line and set my heart on Armour. Found a doctor to prescribe it for me and it was the biggest mistake I ever made! NDT made me so ill! So, after a lot of messing around, I finally found out that I was best on T3 only. For ages, I thought it was because I was a poor converter, and swore never to touch levo again! But, recently, when I looked over my old blood test results, I find that I was converting perfectly. It was just that any sort of T4 made me ill.

Fast forward to earlier this year, and two of my T3-only friends had decided - for their own reasons - to add in a little T4. I resisted. No, I could never, ever do that! But, it didn't seem to do them any harm, so I got curious. What would happen if I did the same? So, finally, I got hold of some T4 and tried. I added in 25 mcg and held my breath. Nothing happened. I felt well. Perhaps not any better than I was on T3 only, but certainly not worse. After six weeks, I went up to 50 mcg - adjusting my T3 accordingly - but, no. That wasn't good. I went back to 25 mcg, and been on it ever since.

My theory is that I had some hormone resistance at a cellular level - because I was on a pretty high dose of T3 only, at one point! Now, I take a lot less, so perhaps I'm not as resistant as I was, and for that reason can tolerate the T4, now. But, I don't really know if there's a connection.

So many things we don't know - nobody knows. We don't know if T4 has any purpose apart from waiting to be converted to T3. We don't know what T2 and T1 - or even rT3 - really do. I wonder if we'll ever know, or will we just have to take it on trust that Mother Nature knows what she's doing and that everything has a place in the Universe, even if we don't know what that place is? It's all very well to have a questioning mind, if there's someone to answer the questions. If not, it can be awfully frustrating.

I plan to look for those answers but first … yeah, gotta fix my problem. I started on .88 mcg of Levo and for 27-years, give or take, it worked and then I went on a sugarless diet and went through a little piece of hell. Now, on the other side, I believe I must do the same as you—and everyone else--- experiment until I find what I think is right for me. Grey goose your insight and empathy have helped me a great deal; and I'm quite sure a lot of others, keep it going, brother. Peace Be with You.

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

Ah ha! That's why you stopped converting! The sugarless diet. Just how far did your sugarless diet go? Did you cut out all carbs and anything that converts to sugar? You need some carbs - sugar even - to convert.

Well brother, the only conspiracy would be the doctors. I think every single Hypo patient should get together, get all the endo (in the world) in one large group and demand that: THEY BE EDUCATED PROPERLY!

No, the conspiracy comes from Big Pharma, not the doctors, they just do as they're told. Most of them don't have the nounce to think for themselves. Big Pharma controls what they learn in med school. And it's not in Big Pharma's interests for them to learn too much - not make us better, just keep us alive!

But, I'm not a 'brother', I'm a 'sister'. :) Why did you assume I was male?

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

I don't know but I do know one of my favorite writers, Edna Ferber, always said that: "the best writers can be read without thought to their sex," in other words: the reader will not know, unless he is told, what the writer's sex is. You are a great writer: who knows, maybe these posts will make their way into a book.

And, you are right about Big Pharma, it is also the sugar lobby in Florida, sugar is in everything in Florida, literally, including medications. Also the doctors are all tied to insurance companies, who tell them what to prescribe.

BTW, do you think I'm over or under medicating?

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

I very much doubt you are over-medication on 7.5 mcg. Much more likely to be under-medicating. But, you really ought to get your FT3 tested from time to time, because you can't always trust symptoms.

Thank you for the compliments. :)

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

I'm getting a blood every six weeks. If I take some T4,having .75 mcg and .88mcg leftover pills, one synthroid, the other Levo, which would you take? And, how do you get NDT or any drug yourself? Mail? I don't really trust that?

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

Well, Synthroid is levo - levothyroxine, T4. But, Synthroid is a brand, and I imagine you also have a generic. Depends which one suits you best. The fillers might be different, but the basic hormone, T4, is the same.

Mail is the only way to get prescription medication without a prescription. Unless you drive to Mexico. Why don't you trust it?

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

I am pessimistic about anything going through the mail, esp here, as I know and have experienced mail-theft, damaged packages, etc. I would prefer a compounding pharmacy, which they have here.

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

Ah OK. Yes, I see what you mean. I did have six bottles of T3 sent from Mexico, and they were all smashed on arrival! And, there's always mail-theft, everywhere. Another problem I have with the mail is our stupid postmen not being able to read, and putting my mail in the wrong letterbox! I once had a parcel turn up right the other end of the road! Fortunately, it went to an honest man. But, sometimes we just have to trust in fate and take the risk. The compounding pharmacy would want a prescription, I imagine, and if you can't get one...

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

You're right, you have to take the hand you're dealt and it's very hard for any one person to change an entire "system" but we gotta try. If Hillary Clinton takes Armour, and she does, she needs a prescription, of course, money isn't a "problem" for her but in a country where (supposedly): "All men are created equally, endowed with inalienable rights ...

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

Well, we all know that's not true! And it's getting worse! Not many people have as many rights as she does, she can access the right doctors, and pay for any treatment she needs! Not the same for the majority of people.

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

True but if I was arguing a case before the (Supreme) Court, I would state that for anyone (politician, judge, etc.) to continue referring to the U.S.A. (as Trump constantly does) as being the greatest "Democracy" and the "freest" country in the world is a direct misnomer which must (should) be corrected by making the Hypocritic oath the Hippocratic oath once (again). Doctors need to be held accountable for what they do and what they don't (won't) do. Public health in this world is horrible and the Congress should be held accountable also. How this will be done is a good question and I'm still working on that and just as soon as I get this Hypo totally figured out, I'm gonna ...

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

Totally agree with you! Unfortunately doctors in the US are held accountable for their actions far more than in any other country. So, you can imaging what it's like in some places! It's a universal problem.

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

I know you posted this a month ago but I never figured out why you said:

Ah ha! That's why you stopped converting! The sugarless diet. Just how far did your sugarless diet go? Did you cut out all carbs and anything that converts to sugar?

You need some carbs - sugar even - to convert.

How is it that I would need sugar & do you mean processed sugar. I'm sure I got

(get) enough "sugar" & carbs from all the fruits and vegetables I was eating? I was

still eating (buffalo) meat & fish also. How much "sugar" & were you referring to processed sugar?

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

I wasn't referring to anything in particular. I was reacting to your statement : then I went on a sugarless diet and went through a little piece of hell. I took it that the little piece of hell was due to you going sugar-free, and associated it with a low-carb diet. Perhaps I was wrong, but you didn't answer my question : Did you cut out all carbs and anything that converts to sugar? So, I didn't pursue it any further. But, the point was that we need carbs to convert. Low carb diets are bad for hypos. And, it would explain why you stopped converting your T4 to T3. I don't think the conversion process differentiates between processed sugar and other types of carbs. And I have no way of knowing just how much fruit you were eating or the carb content of your diet. That's why I asked. :)

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

Thanks for that because, in fact, my headaches were terrible & I was, basically, "bedridden" in that I only took walks about for a month. I cut out almost all processed sugar, eating fruit and vegetables with their own "natural sugar sweetness," raisins, oranges, blueberries, blackberries, raspberries, etc. The thing is, before I made this drastic move, I regularly drank at least a gallon of sweet tea a day & made it myself with 2 cups of processed sugar. I had sugar withdrawal, I now believe, because the only thing that stopped the headache(s) was awakening and drinking large gulps of O.J., the only "drink" I had with any processed sugar in it. I sometimes awoke at 2 or 3 am to drink the O.J. and really, truthfully, had no idea why the orange juice made the headache go away. I was a sugar freak for 40-years but I "justified" it by working out extremely hard and sweating it out. I consume very little processed sugar (knowingly) now and don't miss it that much. In fact, I must "water down" any drink with (any processed) sugar in it because it tastes much too sweet for me now. I work out again but sweat much less and I do wonder how much of the T4 not "working" could have to do with the sugarless diet and what, if anything, I (could) should do about it.

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

OK, so it must have been a terrible shock to your system to just go cold turkey like that. And, it could have had an effect on your conversion. Obviously you don't want to go back to consuming all that sugar again, but do make sure you are getting some carbs, and then let your body settle down again. Don't over-do the exercising if your FT3 is low. That uses up your calories, and you also need calories to convert. :)

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

I will hold it down. Here is my last bloods, just got them today: TSH

CURRENT RANGEOVER TIME

TSH

4.96 H 0.40-4.50 mIU/L

T4, FREE

CURRENT RANGE OVER TIME

T4, FREE

0.8

0.8-1.8 ng/dL

T3, FREE

CURRENT RANGE OVER TIME

T3, FREE

2.3 2.3-4.2 pg/mL

VITAMIN B12 CURRENT RANGE OVER TIME

VITAMIN B12

464 200-1100 pg/mL

My last blood test, before this one, was on 7/14 and my TSH was 0.11

my T4 FREE was 1.2, my T4 Total was 7.4, my T3 FREE was 3.3 and my T3 Total was 106. A big difference? This was when I was still taking T4. When I saw my endo today he mentioned that my TSH was too high & when I replied that it didn't matter when you were on T3-only, he laughed & told me I was crazy but, nevertheless I talked him into writing me a prescription for 20 mcg of T3 & 50 mcg of Levo, even as I told him I wasn't taking the T4? Notice that my FT4 & FT3 are both at the lowest amount in the range & he didn't say a word: just focused on the TSH, as usual.

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

Well, perhaps that was because, with a TSH that high, your Frees are obviously going to be low.

I think you got a bit confused about the TSH and T3. It doesn't matter if the TSH is suppressed when taking T3 only. But if the TSH is over one, it still means you're under-medicated. And, you are very under-medicated.

Your B12 is a bit low, too. Should be at least over 550.

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

Under-medicated in what way? I mean, if I feel better on T3 only & I'm "still" under-medicated, do you mean? because, if I took some T4, which would, I'm sure, bring down (way down) my TSH, as it was O.11 just a month ago but I felt terrible and feel much better today on T3 only. Taking the t4 would "medicate me properly but at what cost Tto my health? I'm willing to take some T4 but not if it gives me "brain fog, headaches & heart palpitations, as it did for three straight months.

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

Who said taking T4 would 'medicate you properly'? Did I mention T4? No, I didn't. It's perfectly acceptable to be on T3 only if you're on the right dose. Your FT3 is right at the bottom of the range. Are you saying that you feel well with such a low T3? If so, then good for you. But, will it last?

Your TSH has nothing to do with how you feel. It doesn't make you feel anything. It has two jobs : 1) stimulate the thyroid to make thyroid hormone - but if your thyroid cannot respond, then it is redundant for that 2) stimulate conversion of T4 to T3 - but if you're taking T3 only then it is redundant for that, too. The pituitary knows this, and reduces its out-put of TSH. So, you TSH is low because you don't need it anymore when taking T3. If you felt bad when your TSH was at 0.11, it was for some other reason. It wasn't the low TSH making you feel bad, that is sure and certain.

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

Actually, since I've stopped taking T4 I feel pretty good. It's been 2 months on T4 & T3 and aImost a month on T3-only. I will be taking T4 to see if it continues to "kill me" but not for long, if it does "kill me." I am "looking" for NDT or maybe a pill that contains both T4 & T3. I will see. I just hope it all works out and I can find the "right" dose. Don't we all? I am doing my best to feel right and if you have any suggestions please tell me, because I am all ears at this point to anyone (except a GP or endo!)

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

The 'right dose' is only found by slowly increasing your dose of hormone. The 'right' hormone. I would not recommend a pill that contains T4+T3 because it's not flexible enough. But, you will only know if NDT suits you by trying it. It doesn't suit everyone, but you can't know if it suits you except by trying it. It's all trial and error. You have to be willing to experiment. But, if you're feeling good on T3 only, why not stay on T3 only?

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

You're right, as far as "feeling as good as I can." I still get cold hands and feet and am reticent to attempt to sleep with being in pitch darkness but can "live" with that. Still, NDP may "cure" every hypo "sign" I have. I can only "experiment" until I find out, of course. Thanks for your advise & time. May peace be upon you.

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

You're welcome. :)

I’ll tell you my recent story to illustrate just what rt3 does...

I had been treated for my Hashimotos and Hypothyroidism with compounded t3 (liothyronine) for years. As usualy, every six months I got my labwork done. About 7 years ago, my TSH had shot up from 0.01 to 57 due to a bad batch of compounded liothironine. As a result, my doc put me on 100 mcg per day of Cytomel in an effort to kick start my thyroid. I remained on this dose for a few years, although my TSH over time decreased from 57 to a level that was practically undetectable. Mind you, I felt and looked better than I had in years.

My doc was worried at each 6-month checkup, according to the labs, that I was “hyperthyroid” due to being overmedicated; that I’d get osteoporosis and possibly have a heart attack. I’d argue each visit that, if I am hyper, then why is my pulse always normal? Why don’t my hands tremble? Why is my blood pressure great, my A1C great, my cholesterol and triglycerides finally normal? My HDL, the “good” cholesterol was almost above the normal range! No more body aches, brain fog or debilitating exhaustion! No more obesity! Felt normal for the first time in 25 years.

In an effort to please my doc, I finally “caved” and I managed over a year’s timespan, to lower my dose of Cytomel from 100 mcg to 25 mcg a day. My thyroid levels, however, continued to “look” like I was being overmedicated: TSH remained at 0.01 (reference range 0.450-4.50) free t4 <0.11 (reference range 0.82-1.77) and free t3 10.6 (reference range 2.0-4.4). So she said she wanted to add some T4 and eventually lower the Cytomel. I begrudgingly said okay, but insisted she now check my Rt3 level. This is why: T4 is converted to either t3, the usable hormone as you know, OR it is converted to rt3, which is unusable and keeps recirculating throughout your body. It is the rt3 that makes you feel ill, gives you all the crappy hypothyroid symptoms. So because I’d been taking T3 only (Cytomel), it was like bypassing my hypothalamus thus no need to make T4 as I cannot convert it to T3, for whatever reason. With no T4, there is no Rt3! So now that I’m taking t4, my symptoms are creeping back. Oh, my thyroid labs may look better to the doctor, but just wait till she sees my cholesterol, triglycerides, etc. She swears she won’t treat just the numbers, so we’ll see what happens my next visit!

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why you're telling me this. For one thing, I already know it, and for another, I don't see the relevance. Not do I think you're strictly correct in what you say.

There is always some rT3 in your body when you take T4, that is true. But it's also true for euthyroid people. T4 always converts to T3 and rT3, it's just a question of how much is converted to rT3. If it made people feel ill at any level, then every one on T4 and every euthyroid person would feel permanently ill. Which is not the case. Problems with rT3 - if problems there are, and that's never been proved - happen when the rT3 is over-range. If you're on just a low dose of T4, the it's unlikely to be causing high levels of rT3. It's when the T4 reaches the top of the range that it starts converting to more rT3 than T3. Even so, it's more likely to be the lack of T3 causing symptoms than the presence of rT3.

But, high rT3 can be caused by many more things than just high T4. Starvation diets, infections, low ferritin, high/low cortisol, are just some of the other reasons for high rT3. But, it's not, and never has been, low T3 that causes high rT3, so taking high doses of T3 will not get rid of it, if that's the just of your response. :)

I’m not sure how my comment went to you—so sorry for the confusion! I actually meant to respond to GKeith’s comment that we don’t know what rt3 even does. I am aware that it’s normal to have rT3 but, for me, going back to when I was on Synthroid many years ago, I believe that I felt so ill when my rT3 level was high, although my doc never checked for rT3 levels back then. My point is that I want to avoid taking T4 like the plague to minimize any chance of creating a high rT3 level; that I felt great on T3 only, despite my labs looking like I was overmedicated. I am frustrated at my doc, who seems now to want to treat TSH numbers, despite her reassurance to me that she will consider my symptoms and not just treat the numbers. My frustration is ‘if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.’

But, it's perfectly true that scientist and researchers do not really know what rT3 does. And, you have absolutely no proof that you even had rT3, let alone that it was causing problems. So, it's a bit rash to post on here that you know what it does when nobody else does. As I said, your symptoms were more than likely caused by the reason for your high rT3 - if you even had high rT3 - rather than the high rT3 itself.

But, you're right that doctors should not be dosing by TSH only. That is very, very wrong, and a sure way to keep the patient sick!

Hi Greygoose, thank you for your reply—you raise some good points regarding rT3. I am attaching an article on Reverse T3 from Dr. Westin Childs; this is where I postulated what may have contributed to my feeling ill in the past. You are correct that I didn’t know for a fact that my rT3 levels were high as they hadn’t been tested—it was just a hunch on my part. Anyway, I appreciate your wisdom and find this forum to be extremely informative!

restartmed.com/reverse-t3/

Take Dr Weston Childs with a pinch of salt.

If too much goes down the INACTIVE Reverse T3 pathway, then the active thyroid hormone is BLOCKED and you may become symptomatic.

There is no proof that this is true in anyway. The problem with Dr Weston is that he dumbs everything down so much, you end up unsure what exactly he's talking about. How is the T3 blocked? He doesn't say. It used to be believed that, as the rT3 wasn't the right shape to fit into the T3 receptors, it got stuck and blocked them. But, it has now been shown that the rT3 has its own receptors, so doesn't block the T3 receptors.

As I said, you're far more likely to become symptomatic because your not converting well, and your FT3 is low, rather than because your rT3 is high.

As for 'flushing' it out, rT3 doesn't need 'flushing'. It only stays in the body for a couple of hours, and is then converted to T2. Rather than trying to 'flush' it out, what you need to do is remove the cause. Which very often means decreasing your dose of levo, and adding in some T3. :)

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

Not meaning to break into a conversation but speaking of RT3, I stopped taking any T4 5 days ago because my GP told me he was going to stop my T3 because taking it (T3) would "harm" me. He said he could prove it was "bad" for me, by my blood test (I'd been on T3 a month) which I took the next day, but it tested at 3.3 pg/mL (whatever the hell pg/mL stands for) out of a ref. range of 2.3-4.2 & when I went to his office, a week later, his partner shows up saying that the doctor had been confused (wrong) but I am still stuck in the mud taking T3-only at a very low dose (7.5 MCG) & with an endo who doesn't "believe in" RT3. Well, if I am "cured," (feeling my "old" self; i.e. no "brain fog") then T3-only is good by me, however, if not, then would I not need "someone" to check on my RT3 level?

From everything I've "learned" about this, it appears (to me) that it's when the T4 comes out of the liver that it "turns into" T3, as an active hormone, as opposed to the inactive T4, meaning, to me, that when my T4 leaves the liver it doesn't convert thereby becoming RT3.

I mean, two of the "symptons" for RT3 are increased cortisol (stress) and

Low cortisol (adrenal fatigue) so, go figure that one out?

Bottom line: If I feel 100% better on T3 alone than on a T4, T3 combo, I gotta figure I am T4 intolerant. As far as NDT is concerned, if I find an endo who will prescribe it, I will absolutely try it, which "should" end my "search," so I can "work" again.

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

NDT contains T4 as well, you know.

Actually, it's not that low and high cortisol are rT3 symptoms, but that high rT3 can be caused by low/high cortisol. You need your cortisol just right.

I'm not sure that T4 'leaves the liver - why would it do that? - and converts to T3, most T4 is converted in the liver. But, if your FT4 is high and your FT3 is low, then you're a poor converter.

Did your GP 'prove' that T3 was bad for you? :)

Doesn't matter what pg/ml is, it's just a measurement. It's the range that is important.

How can your doctor not 'believe' in rT3? It exists. Whether or not it's actually a problem is a different matter. But, who said you're cured? And why can't you increase your T3? 7.5 is only a tiny dose, and your FT3 is only just mid-range. So, there's room to increase if you feel the need.

But - think I've found your question! - no, no point in anyone testing your rT3. It's one of those what I think of as red-herring tests. It tells you if there's a problem, but doesn't tell you where it is. If you stopped taking your levo five days ago, high rT3 is unlikely to be due to high FT4. But, there are many other things that could cause it - like high/low cortisol - and an infection, low-calorie diet, low ferritin, etc. etc. etc. How would you know where the problem was? You might just as well test your ferritin, cortisol now instead of the rT3, which is a very expensive test.

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

Actually, it's just a word switch; either way you paraphrase it, the T4 enters the liver and comes out T3, whether it's converted to T3 inside the liver or not, the result is the same.

My GP never proved anything about T3, he, apparently, wasn't “familiar” with T3 at all.

My eno didn't really say he doesn't “believe” in rT3, he just told me to “forget about rT3” as soon as I mentioned it. I plan to bring it up in 2 weeks when I see him with a blood test after three weeks on T3 alone.

Not only can I not increase my 7.5 dose, I am on his T3 prescription of 5 MCG & I will just about run out when I see him next, in 2 weeks. I raised it myself.

I just would like to know what the problem with T4 is, after 26 years with no problems and if I do have rT3 then, at least, I'll know that. What if I have low FT4 & high FT3? A lotta unanswered questions. I would think that if my FT3 & T3 total are both low then I have low T3 and if I do have rT3 in my system, then if the rT3 is higher than the FT3 I have too much rT3?

I don't think they've ever tested my cortisol or ferritin, or, come to think of it, my adrenals. The rT3 test is covered by my insurance, as far as I know.

Are you in the U.K? It must be 2:00 A.M. There?

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

My eno didn't really say he doesn't “believe” in rT3, he just told me to “forget about rT3” as soon as I mentioned it. I plan to bring it up in 2 weeks when I see him with a blood test after three weeks on T3 alone.

Well, your endo is right. There's no point in testing for it because it wouldn't give you any useful information, as I explained.

I just would like to know what the problem with T4 is, after 26 years with no problems and if I do have rT3 then, at least, I'll know that. What if I have low FT4 & high FT3? A lotta unanswered questions. I would think that if my FT3 & T3 total are both low then I have low T3 and if I do have rT3 in my system, then if the rT3 is higher than the FT3 I have too much rT3?

Wow! OK, well, these things happen. And, the likelihood of you getting to the bottom if it is pretty slim. But, did you change brands around the time it started not working for you? And, if you do have rT3 then you won't know anything - except that you have rT3. It doesn't prove a thing. It doesn't stop your levo 'working'.

Everybody has some rT3 in their system, anyway. And, by the time you manage to get it tested, the levo will be mostly out of your system. So, if you have high rT3 then, it will be nothing to do with the levo, but you won't know what is causing it, will you? Levo causes high rT3 when it's up the top of the range. At that point, it starts converting to more rT3 than T3, so FT3 drops, and rT3 goes over-range. But, you can see that just by looking at your FT4 level. And, all you have to do to lower the rT3 is drop the dose of levo. rT3 only hangs around for a couple of hours, anyway, and then it's converted to T2.

If your FT3 is high and your FT4 is low, then look at your TSH. It will probably be high and driving conversion. Or, did you mean 'what if my rT3 is high and my FT4 low'? In that case, the high rT3 will be caused by one of the many other things I mentioned, and nothing to do with the levo.

You only have too much rT3 if it's over-range. If it's still in-range, then it's OK. But, even if the rT3 test is covered by your insurance - and I can't imagine why they would cover such a useless test - it's still not going to give you any information you can work with.

I'm not in the UK, I'm in France. It was late - don't know what time - but I'd been to sleep and woken up again, realised I'd forgotten to turn my computer off, got up… and the rest is history! lol

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

Well, when you come right down to it we can't “prove” anything except what? What the scientific or (in this case) medical authorities want us to. There are really no “absolutes” in this world and I have always been one to 'think' that when 'everyone agrees' with this or that 'thinking' it's because few, if anyone, is 'thinking' (to begin with, they are all too busy to “think.”)

From what I can discern from this rT3 thing reverse T3 is either an autoimmune disease, whereby body tissues are attacked by our own immune system, and/or the failure of the pill, T4, converting into what it is supposed to, to “work.”

As to rT3 converting to T2, all I've ever come up with, concerning T2 is that it (T2), aka diiodo-L-thyronine is an energy inhibitor which has been used in “diet & weight loss” pills by the never-ending pharmaceutical “monsters,.” which have been known to “influence” not only scientists, researchers, doctors, publishers (to print 'their books') writers (to write it 'their' way) researchers & scientists (by funding their 'study' and to write the 'results' their way) and any other resource that they (conglomerates making fortunes from their “products,” ) are selling.

Well, actually there is (only) one thing that I, personally, can prove (to myself, anyway) how I feel, and I don't 'feel good' at all when I take any, so far, Synthroid & Levothroid, T4 pill. Really, my aim is to just “feel good” again. I just really want the "brain fog" gone and so far, it's been much better without the Synthroid or Levo. I want what most human beings want: to “feel” like myself, free of anything that holds me back from speaking my mind. I do not trust (completely) anyone who does something, with the lone (primary) intention of making a 'profit' from his endeavors (work) when he speaks to me, giving his “adivce” of what I should do to “feel better,” to be “cured,” (of my disease) or anything else with profit being his main and/or primary (only) goal.

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

You're possibly right on that, but you'd have to walk a long, long way before you found any doctor that knew anything about rT3. So, the test is no good for advancing your cause.

From what I can discern from this rT3 thing reverse T3 is either an autoimmune disease, whereby body tissues are attacked by our own immune system, and/or the failure of the pill, T4, converting into what it is supposed to, to “work.”

No, that's completely wrong. rT3 has nothing to do with autoimmune. It is a safety mechanism for the body to stop it going hypo, and to slow it down at times it needs to concentrate its forces on recovery. It is a very necessary mechanism. Everybody has some rT3 in there system at all times. It only denotes a problem when it is over-range. rT3 doesn't attack the body.

But, yes, if you can't convert your levo, you will probably end up with high rT3. Depends how much you take. But, poor conversion is a failure of your own body, not the pill itself.

It's true, T2 has been promoted for weight-loss, at various moments, but it's another thing that we know very little about. All we know is that it's absolutely necessary, because T2 is converted to T1, then the last atom of iodine is removed and recycled by the body, and it all starts again - T4 to T3 and rT3 to T2 to T1. I've never heard that it inhibits energy. If it did that, it wouldn't be much good for weight-loss, would it.

You right, the only thing any of us want is to feel better, to get back to our old selves.

I do not trust (completely) anyone who does something, with the lone (primary) intention of making a 'profit' from his endeavors (work) when he speaks to me, giving his “adivce” of what I should do to “feel better,” to be “cured,” (of my disease) or anything else with profit being his main and/or primary (only) goal.

Well, no problem with that, here, because none of us get paid!

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to greygoose

I am still taking T3 only, twice a day, 7.5 mcg every 12 hours because the life is apparently 12 hours. I would rather take it once a day, in the morning but fear it would only work for 12-hours. I seem to remember that said you take it once a day. Are there T3 pills that have a 24-hour "life?"

Also, I'm very curious about taking NDT & what my chances are it wouldn't work due to the T4 in it?

realize no one is paid on this website, which speaks for itself the authenticity of those who spend any of their time here, esp people like yourself, because when you know a thing, it is good to state it, and also to state when you do not know something: for this leads to knowledge, as nothing else does and it takes a great amount of courage & character just to be a human being & "trade what you know with others freely and with spirit."

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to Kellykitty

I believe that (sometimes) the T4, somehow, maybe from conserving energy or from an excess of T4 building up, or an euthyroid disease turns into RT3, in other words a thyroid dysfunction shows up in someone who has had no thyroid problems in the past, why I don't know, but, when you come right down to it why won't doctors, esp. Endo's, even check the RT3? It's a simple blood test and yet refuse to test it, even as they continue to deny T3 is worth anything?

greygoose
greygoose
in reply to GKeith

Because it's an expensive test and has no practical use. I think I've said that several times, but you don't really want to know, do you? You just want your test! lol

I believe that (sometimes) the T4, somehow, maybe from conserving energy or from an excess of T4 building up, or an euthyroid disease turns into RT3

T4 will start to convert to excess rT3 when it gets to the top of the range, yes. Even if you are a good converter, if the FT4 gets too high, it will convert to more rT3 than T3 - and that's what it's supposed to do. As I said above, it's a safety valve.

Any time you have any sort of infection, whether you're hypo or not, T4 will start converting to more rT3 than T3 to conserve energy so that you can rest and heal.

in other words a thyroid dysfunction shows up in someone who has had no thyroid problems in the past,

That is why the protocol says that after the first high TSH, you should wait a few months and get retested. If the TSH is still high, then you were hypo. If it isn't then it was something else, like a virus, raising the TSH. This prevents diagnosing someone as hypo when they really aren't. Absolutely nothing to do with the rT3, and testing it wouldn't have helped.

GKeith

It is a long process to get well with thyroid unless you are one of the many lucky ones who take T4 and are well. They simply increase the dose until everything comes into line and they feel well. This applies to many people and is probably ‘normal’ and works for maybe 80% of people. They probably don’t use this forum so much as their problem is solved. For the 20% or so T4 does not work so well and life is much more complicated. That includes me.

All our bodies are different and our problems and responses are different. To get well we have to find the right medicine/combo, right dosing and timing for us. This is not a quick process. Each time we change something it takes a month to settle down before we really know it’s impact. It takes time for all the body cycles to adjust each time. If we rush, we will get lost along the way because we have not properly assessed that step. It is also true that cortisol and vitamin issues can significantly impact and we need to check those and solve them.

I would buy the book ‘Recovering with T3’ by Paul Robinson so you understand the background of thyroid, how to measure your vitals and the steps to take.

In brief you start with T4 and slowly increase the dose until you are well. If it doesn’t work, you reduce T4 and introduce T3. If you get improvement, keep increasing T3 and reducing T4. Either you will find the right balance or eventually get to T3 only. That can happen if we have conversion problems with T4. I ended up on T3 only but it’s a disciplined way of life with exact dosing at exact times through the day.

Others can add to what I’ve said or correct it. But my main concern for you is that you are changing things too fast and will get confused and uncertain what is working. I hope this is helpful. Sorry it’s not a quick process.

Best of luck.

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to T3sortedme

Brother,

I appreciate your time and thoughtfulness.

Now, what happened to me this morning may not shock you but it did me. I have been on T4 only for 27-28 years until I talked the first endo I saw ( a month ago) into giving me some T3. He put me on 75 mcg of T4 and 5mcg of T3. I already knew that NDT has a 4 to 1 ratio and here he was giving me 15 to 1 but I took it ... for 2 weeks and had palpitations right from the get-go, mostly weak but occasionally up to a minute or so. I then cut the Synthroid pills (which were, I believe, giving me palpitations) in half. The Synthroid is synthetic and he prescribed a generic T3. I don't know if this makes any difference but I also have some left-over, 3-month old generic T4 pills I may try with the generic T3 but, not to diverse, this morning I had decided to take my Basal Metabolic temp's. I had taken them before and hit an average maybe of 96, 97 at the highest. Well, this morning on T3-only for the past 3 days, my temp was 97.9 and my pulse was 62, better than ever on T4-only and/or T4T3 combo, and here I am taking T3-only for the past 3 days straight.

I expected the usual low 94-96-range but got a hair away from 98? Hmmm? Yeah, what is going on? I know it will take (guessing) at least a week to clear all the T4 out of my system but this T3-only and a low dose at that, 7.5 mcg, seems to suit me. I feel twice as good, strong and energetic than with (any) T4. I had been cutting the T4 in half anyway.

So, why do I, now, after 28-years on T4 only, respond so well to T3-only? I am absolutely bedazzled but also very wary of such a turnaround because it's not as if I'm on NDT, my (I think) eventual goal, after clearing out, if I can, any adrenal, cortisol problems. I understand it's not a quick process but this: this unexpected temperature (I still need two more, tonight and tomorrow, and then averaging the three for the final Basal) but it, indeed, is quick, but then, what's real is real. I pray a lot (who with any pain doesn't) but never expected this. What do you think, I'd be interested to know because I certainly don't feel as if I am going (back) to taking (any) T4 anytime soon, unless it is a very, very low dose. I don't understand anything (anymore) except that this T4 'menace' is just that (or, it appears so) a 'menace' (to me) anyway.

T3sortedme
T3sortedme
in reply to GKeith

GKeith

It looks as though you are a T3 only candidate (like me). The response to T3 is quick as it is a very active hormone. T4 is storage hormone and turned into T3 when the body thinks it needs it. If you have conversion problems, you won’t get good T3 from conversion and often reverse T3 (rT3) is formed which counters it (blocks normal T3 from getting into cells). As you say it will all slowly clear from your system. Next step will be seeing when to take T3 and how much you need. Yours sounds like a low dose. As T4 clears, if you get any benefit from it (you may not), you will need more T3.

Have you got any recent results?

Can you get a prescription for T3?

Do you already know most of this or am I being helpful?

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to T3sortedme

I posted the bloods from 7/14 on here the day after I got them and also just above. Since then I've been on T3-only and haven't posted because I will get them to be determined. I will post them then even if I have to low-dose T4. Thanks a lot for your concerns too. I dislike even a thought of RT3 but what else can I do?

Hello GKeith my fellow American . My sympathy for your thyroid issues . I had TT many years ago and was dosed on Synthroid Only . I had palpitations anxiety high B/P jaundice fatty liver ,weight issues panic attack insomnia heat intolerant . It's wonderful and Great Forums like ours empowered me and asked my new Endo for some T3 knowing very little about it . I was given a script for 5mcg Cytomel with no instructions . It said on the bottle one a day . Now I did not know that T3 needs to be split especially if you have not had T3 for a very long time . I started to have terrible adrenal pains . I started with adding nutrients to my daily regiment . It was a bit better . I found a new Endo who goes by symptoms first labs last and introduced me to NDT . I now dose with NDT split with T4 combo . And Nutrients are very important . Vitamin "D"/K2 , B-12/folate , Iron (If low) Vitamin "C" B-complex magnesium fish oil Selenium . Selenium can raise glucose levels and cause constipation in some .

I would love it and many more if you would start a movement for NDT/T3 to be given readily for thyroid patients who ask and who need it . We shouldn't have to beg plead for our well being . It's "BIG PHARMA" that is causing all this . They would rather keep society sick and sell many drugs instead of NDT/T3 . Like sleeping pills anti anxiety pills blood pressure pills , pills for cholesterol do you see a pattern ? It's called follow the M-O-N-E-Y .

Further Medical Academia should teach future Endo/Dr's how to dose with NDT/T3 . Most Dr don't know how and don't bother to learn either . And Dr are terrible listeners too . There is Lots of Blames to go around . Now we need to Fix The Problems Universally . NDT/T3 should not be given to the Elite Only . But should be available to all mankind who needs it and requests it . I propose that we need not need scrips for it . The only control it should have is PRICE CONTROL . Keep it affordable for all .

Wishing you better days ahead .

GKeith
GKeith
in reply to jgelliss

Brother, I am with you all the way. The biggest problem we face is money and it is spelt Big Pharma and insurance companies. The only doctors they do not run are the only ones with any character at all.

I am seeing another GP tomorrow at the VA hospital and am going to try to get more T3 and a bit less T4 and NDT, in the end after I try to figure if a T4-T3 combo is enough or not. I sweat the T3 because the majority of GP's are given the authority by the government to run these Capitation Programs, which is Capitalist ruse to bribe the doctors with more money the less they do and it is working. Their entire mantra is to make their patients take T4 and not T3 and it is working. I see these docs and wonder how they can live with themselves but then I see many of them actually either believe this bullshit or they are just capitalists looking for a moneyed lifestyle.

When I write my story, if I ever get my head clear enough, I will remember you.

Peace, brother, peace.

AMEN !!!! Wishing you much success and well-being . Peace and Success To ALL .

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