I'm sure I read somewhere that Dr Lowe advocated increasing T3 quickly in the early stages to get the best results

[Everdean]

Has anyone else read this?

Or Did I read it wrong?. I know some have said on this site that T3 should be introduced slowly.

[shaws Administrator]

Personally, I think it best to increase gradually as 100mcg of levo is equal to about 25mcg T3, but I will link you to Dr Lowe's website and click at the top of the page on T3. Some of the links within may not work. T3 is the active hormone so goes straight into your bloodstream and is absorbed within about 3 hours. This means that our cells are saturated - quote As a result, a single dose of T3 will be long gone from the patient's system before he or she experiences most of the benefits of that dose—a molecular and metabolic yield that may smoothly spread out over one to three days. The "rocky road" ( August 7, 2001

web.archive.org/web/2010103...

[Everdean in reply to shaws]

So then Shaws.

As I was on 100mcg of Levo it may be possible to go strait on to 25mg of T3 then?

I was prescribed recently 10mg of T3 along with the Levo as I wasn't converting well. However I didn't feel well until I came off the Levo completely.

I know though that just 10mg of T3 isn't enough for me as I still have a very slow heart and low temperature.

[shaws Administrator in reply to Everdean]

I am not medically qualified but I think a straight switch-over to T3 from 100 levo is fine. If you should feel at all overstimulated, I would take 3/4 of the T3 and work up after a few weeks. I only felt better when I switched to T3 and I also felt good on NDT (but not all of them).

[Everdean in reply to shaws]

Thank you Shaws

[tDR1980 in reply to shaws]

T4 has a 14:1 occurence to T3 naturally when excreted by the human Thyroid - hence my (well known) Endo working on the principal of 140 mcg T4 to 10 mcg T3 daily when using combination treatment.

I was on 175 mcg T4 only and when my Endo wanted to change me to combination treatment, he lowered the T4 dose to 137.5 mcg (150 then 125 on alternate days) to introduce 10 mcg T3. The ideal would have been 135 mcg T4 but that was the closest we could get given available T4 dose sizes. So he did work to 4:1 T4 to T3 equivalence given he lopped off 40 mcg T4 to introduce 10 mcg T3, which also meant I was close to the natural ratio excreted by the Thyroid of 14:1.

That said, my recent bloods made my Endo see me as slightly over medicated so my T4 dose is now reduced to 125 mcg. It seems the T3 has a higher potency in my body vs. expected.

Merry Xmas all!

[Everdean]

Thank you reallyfedup.

I will have to trawl through his stuff again and see if I can find it.

[Heloise]

r. Lowe: It is possible that a fibromyalgia patient with normal thyroid test results can recover with the use of timed-release T3. However, the likelihood of recovery is far less than with the use of plain T3. Your normal thyroid test results suggest that your fibromyalgia symptoms are the result of partial cellular resistance to thyroid hormone. For most patients with thyroid hormone resistance, timed-release T3 doesn’t work well, if it works at all.

This past year, several Internet doctors, who give advice on thyroid hormone therapy, sired a false belief about the effects of plain T3 on the body—that it causes "physiological instability." These doctors must have a large audience. I say this because I’ve heard (through e-mails, letters, and phone calls) echoes of their false belief in almost every conceivable variation of words. Your doctor’s belief about plain T3 being "a very bumpy road" is an especially creative and graphic variation of the false belief.

Let me explain the error in the Internet doctors’ thinking. Within a couple of hours after a patient ingests a single daily dose of plain T3, the blood level of T3 peaks. The Internet doctors infer that because the blood level of T3 peaks, the metabolic reactions of body tissues also peak, resulting physiological instability. Their inference is wrong.

The origin of the doctors’ erroneous thinking may be the reaction of the heart to T3 in some individuals. In some patients who take a single daily dose of plain T3, the heart rate slightly speeds up for a short time. The speed up results from a direct effect of the T3 on heart cells. Avoiding this increase in heart rate in patients with fragile heart conditions is prudent. However, in the vast majority of patients, the increased heart rate is transient and harmless. This is especially true for patients who take heart-protective nutrients and engage in regular cardiovascular exercise. (I have written more on drlowe.com about the effects of T3 on heart function.)

In contrast to the heart in some individuals, most other body tissues don’t react to plain T3 with a metabolic surge. Certainly, plain T3 doesn’t cause physiological instability. Recently, I explained the biological systems that buffer the physiological effects of plain T3, preventing physiological instability. I encourage your physician and you to read this explanation. I hope the explanation will make one thing clear: that overall, only two reactions of the body to plain T3 might, by a stretch, be interpreted as physiological instability: (1) the short-lived peak in the blood T3 level, and (2) a slight speed up of the heart rate. In most patients, neither of these is of any clinical importance.

My research group has spent the past ten years studying fibromyalgia caused by thyroid hormone resistance. We have laboratory proof that about one third of the fibromyalgia patients we’ve evaluated and treated have thyroid hormone resistance. Our treatment results have forced us to a firm conclusion: For most fibromyalgia patients with thyroid hormone resistance, using plain T3 (as part of comprehensive metabolic rehab) is the only route to recovery. With the proper use of plain T3, 75% to 85% of these patients permanently recover. It will be tragic indeed if, despite our research findings, some resistance patients are blocked from taking this route to recovery by a well-intended but false idea that plain T3 is "a very bumpy road" to travel.

[Everdean in reply to Heloise]

Thanks Heloise. That is very interesting

[Arabella33 in reply to Heloise]

Hello Heloise, I realise this is an old post but your information is fantastic and I wondered if you could help me. I’ve been getting sensitive to adrenaline which is common on t3 only (I take 125mcg with brain fog resolving wonderfully) my heart shoots up when I eat certain carbs and in the morning first thing. From 56 to 90-100 with no real exertion. I know that t3 makes the heart sensitive to adrenaline and caffeine in some individuals. Does this resolve? It started when I hit about 100 mcg and it’s lessens over the 10 days until my next raise of 6.25 mcg. I’ve been searching for more information but have not found any yet. I’d love to get dr lowes book but it’s so expensive on Amazon for £1500! Thank you

[Heloise in reply to Arabella33]

Hi Arabella, I think I found Dr. Lowe on the internet in the 90's desperately trying to find answers as to why my TSH was so high. We're brainwashed into thinking that T3 can cause a heart attack. Has anyone ever had that happen? Are you following Paul Robinson's T3 program? Dr. Lowe was on a very high dose of T3. I take 50 mcgs at bedtime. You must have a lot of resistance to be on 100. When do you take it?

If you are sensitive to a certain food, your body will react with adrenaline and that's why they use an epi-pen if you don't produce enough. Is it gluten? Your adrenal gland should actually settle down when your thyroid is sufficient. So, something here isn't making sense.

[Arabella33 in reply to Heloise]

That’s wonderful that’s you found him, and a shame for me he is no longer with us.

Paul Robinson uses t3 split 3 times per day and ct3m. I have issues with ct3m as I do not sleep well enough to do it. I’ve been insomniac for far longer than I’ve been treated and it’s not improved.

I was taking three split doses t3 but wanted to try one dose so I’m gradually moving everything over to the morning. 125 mcg so far so yes I do believe I have a lot of resistance.

My symtoms are not gone yet although greatly improved. I’m getting high heart rate when I wake also adrenaline related. 100 bpm lying in bed ! The food that cause a reaction are sugar, potato, bread and oats.

I need to raise further. Do you know if adrenaline rushes will resolve when I’m optimal ?

Thank you ever so much for your time

[Heloise in reply to Arabella33]

Have you done a cortisol saliva test? Naturally it should be at highest level after revving up around 4 a.m. [ Cortisol, the primary stress hormone, increases sugars (glucose) in the bloodstream, enhances your brain's use of glucose and increases the availability of substances that repair tissues.] Adrenaline works much faster than cortisol so it is quicker to react if necessary but I think cortisol takes over and then adrenaline lessens. But at night cortisol should be at it's lowest levels. That might be a helpful test if you have never done it.

Are you insulin resistant as well, often it goes hand in hand.

Your heart is reacting appropriately. Look at what is causing that because it is not a problem with your heart.

(I try to limit those four foods you mention but I'm olderly, ha)

Do you realize your brain is more active when you are asleep than when you are awake? Do you realize your vagus nerve controls heartbeat and blood pressure? That is a cranial nerve that goes to more of your organs. Your brain has more dense mitochondria along with your heart and your retinas. I would say mitochondria determine whether you are alive or dead.

[Arabella33 in reply to Heloise]

I have done a cortisol test. It was low at noon and 4pm but moderately not too much. That’s why I’m at a loss to know what is causing my heart rate increases and insomnia. I think it’s adrenaline / cortisol because it’s didn’t happen before 100mcg but I was still heavily symptomatic.

I don’t know if I’m insulin resistant, how would I know that?

I don’t think I have an issue with my heart, in fact I know I don’t because I was rushed to hospital with a low heart rate of 31 bpm two years ago. They did loads of tests but could find anything structurally wrong.

I’m planning to give up the food causing the palps. Do you think I’m ok to keep raising my brain fog insomnia and heart rate will resolve. I think my adrenals need to heal ? It is too high because my walking rate morning was 150, it was always low before

[Heloise in reply to Arabella33]

Do you know what your A1C score is? If you don't utilize sugar - the process of glycolosis turns sugar into energy-I assume it builds up and then stores as fat. If your pancreas is producing enough insulin but you gain weight you are probably resistant. I think estrogen has an effect on all this, not the hormone itself but the fact that you are not detoxing estrogen metabolites. So you often hear of estrogen dominance.I think your heart is doing its job but you might look into these other factors. I'm no expert on those but I found progesterone helpful.

I'll have to look at your previous posts as I haven't done that yet.

[Arabella33 in reply to Heloise]

So my a1c was 32 mmol/mol I don’t know what that means. I know my blood sugar drops I’m hypoglycaemic as I did the keto dot so tracked it and it was low a lot of the time.

I’m not fat however, quite thin actually which is another confusing effect.

I think my actual heart is ok but my heart rate is too fat at times and it’s scary. 100 on waking is very high and 150 walking is also. I’m wondering if this effect lessens so I can continue to raise until symptom relief. I’m struggling a lot with brain fog and feeling so down about it.

Thank you very much for looking at this for me.

[Heloise in reply to Arabella33]

Let's begin again. I have found when my blood pressure drops very low like 90/50 for instance, my heartrate goes high. Do you have a device to check your BP. Again this is your vagus nerve probably advising your adrenal gland to do something to raise your heartrate. I don't know if I have proof for this but my own findings.We've had videos by functional doctors who know that the gut sends messages to the brain much more often than vice versa so your microbiome is controlling your health really.

Arabella, I will probably pm you some links. I just saw your age so it may make a difference and you say you do not have Hashimoto's? I read about your hair loss as well. One thing about low metabolism which affects stomach acid is you may not "metabolize" nutrients. Minerals are most difficult and amino acids need enough acid as well. I think it's a good idea to try digestive enzymes with meals or an acid like HCL.

[Arabella33 in reply to Heloise]

Hi Heloise,

Yes I do have a bp monitor. It’s fine in optimal range it does fluctuate but it’s not out of optimal range.

I’m U.K. yes I went to my gp and got that reading it’s that correct measure. I built up nutrients vit d b12 folate and iron.

My hair loss happened when I started Armour it was immediate I was hypo for years before so I know it was definitely that. I’m really upset about it, it just seem like another kick in the teeth on top of everything else, and hoping that it will grow back.

My pounding heart started after I began t3 never before 100mcg. Blood sugar is a problem yes but what can I do about it ? There doesn’t seem to be a method that can rectify that. I was hoping it would resolve with optimal t3 as it’s a hypo symptom but I don’t know if I can raise any more ? Do you think it will be ok ?

Thank you again

[Heloise in reply to Arabella33]

A friend raised her dose of T4 and started losing hair hoping to lose weight instead. She decided she wanted her hair instead. I've actually just gone through a period of hair loss myself. High selenium can cause it and I've checked to see how many supplements have included selenium. I see you took 200, right?

[Arabella33 in reply to Heloise]

I do believe it was the t4 causing my hair loss. I hate it now it’s so thin and dry. I took selenium only last month so it would have been that. Something in the ndt for sure.

[Heloise in reply to Heloise]

I have Dr. Datis Kharrazian's latest book. He's very popular in the thyroid world as it affects the brain. He suggests using deglycerized licorice to stabelize blood sugar. I know it helps people with acid reflux but not familiar with this.

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK in reply to Heloise]

Just in case anyone has a problem searching for that, do you actually mean deglycyrrhizinated licorice?

[Heloise in reply to helvella]

OK, OK, Mr. Perfectionist. Even DGL will get you there. You know google rarely needs more than five letters to identify. " DGL is a form of licorice that people have processed for safer consumption. They remove a substantial amount of a substance called glycyrrhizin."

[Arabella33 in reply to helvella]

Thank you helvella

[Arabella33 in reply to Heloise]

I have his book actually I’ll check it out. It would be nice to have dr lowes book as well

[Heloise in reply to Arabella33]

That is great. He is a researcher which means he analyzes results of tests. Looking up PubMed articles can be very helpful. Dr. Lowe died many years ago as you know in the same type of accident as Dr. Atkins. It was troubling to see that. Research has come much, much further I think although the old timers had a lot of practical knowledge.

[Heloise in reply to Arabella33]

A1C is usually measured as a percentage or as mg/dl. Are you in the UK? Are you sure your test was mmol/mol? It seems it is usually mmol/L (per liter) Low blood sugar is a problem.

[Heloise in reply to Arabella33]

Well your first and last measure of cortisol would be more indicative. Highest in am and lowest in pm. Melatonin should be increasing at night. Have you considered a 1 mg of melatonin at bedtime?

[Arabella33 in reply to Heloise]

I’ve tried many things over the years melatonin is one. I’m trying a sleep cbt and I can’t sleep for longer than 5.5 hours and I’m exhausted

[Heloise in reply to Arabella33]

cbt?? or cbd. The problem is they wear off in about 4 hours so for melatonin you can take another dose after a few hours.

[Arabella33 in reply to Heloise]

Melatonin hasn’t worked for me unfortunately. I’ve read that’s insomnia is a common hypo symptom but I wish I had the science behind it to figure out what going on. I wore my watch to bed last night and it tracked my heart rate and it didn’t rise and go nuts until after I had woken.

Cortisol I am high optimal in the morning and night I couldn’t really tell but I don’t have any issues with dropping off so I think it fine. Also I can never sleep more than 5.5 hoirs no matter what time i go to bed.

[Heloise in reply to Arabella33]

How about an adaptogen like l Theanine or Gaba but you are saying that you can get to sleep easily? but then wake. That's a bigger problem but adaptogens are a little different from melatonin but it is good for your brain and other issues. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/180... Your circadian rhythm might be "off". Blue light and electromagnetic fields are messing up our hormones. But I am keeping in mind you are still trying to locate your therapeutic dose and every increase impacts a lot of other functions. Once you get there you can find out if you have other symptoms. You say your doctor doesn't want to increase past the upper third of range? Are you getting your own T3 now? (so you can take what you want) I know Dr. Lowe was on a huge dose of only T3 but not exactly the amount. Shaws takes a high dose of T3 if I recall. Maybe you can contact her.

[Jackie]

Hi A lot of people have terrible side effects from T3 ( often then give up on it)and some other drugs too. Unless life threatening drugs, some very good consultants advocate all drugs should be started slowly. I know this certainly helps lessen side effects as on very many drugs myself.

Happy Christmas,

Jackie

[Everdean in reply to Jackie]

Thank you Jackie. I will take that into concideration.

[humanbean]

I don't know what the "correct" thing to do is, but I'll tell you what happened to me. I started on two doses of 1/4 tablet of T3 per day. I had a very quick but very short-lived effect from the T3. One thing I noticed was that the chest pain I'd been suffering from for quite a long time actually improved. But when the T3 wore off I could barely walk. I staggered a lot. I also suffered from severe memory problems.

So, I increased my dose within a couple of days. The staggering and memory problems continued every time the T3 wore off so I increased more and more. I am now taking 150mcg T3 per day and I've got up to that dose within three or four weeks. I did have problems with a fast heart rate on 175mcg, so I reduced back to 150mcg and I intend to stick with that for now. But I suffered from intermittent tachycardia before I ever started on thyroid medication, so I don't blame the T3 completely for the fast heart rate.

For what it is worth I think what has happened to me is that my body stopped producing thyroid hormones altogether as soon as I started taking the T3. Either my pituitary no longer produces TSH or my thyroid can't respond to TSH any more.

But I am much improved health-wise since starting the T3. Once I was on enough of it my staggering stopped, my brain works and, although I am astonishingly unfit, I have been able to do a tiny bit of housework in time for Christmas.

[PinkNinja in reply to humanbean]

That sounds very familiar. My heart issues are also greatly improved - almost immediately in fact. I am currently on 100mcg because 125 me a fast heart rate at night. I may have to increase again but I am so much bets it is almost unreal!

Of course, everyone is different and I would advise anyone to proceed with caution and listen to their bodies. Even better if they can be overseen by an expert in this type of treatment.

Merry Christmas to all

Carolyn x

[Everdean in reply to PinkNinja]

Thank you all for your input.

[forever_tired in reply to humanbean]

Hi, I realise this is an old thread, but I stumbled across it as I recently posted a related query. I have been gradually increaing my T3 dose and am now on 80mcg (which feels good). I have not told the doctor yet (I have been prescibed 40mcg), but I do need a blood test to see where my levels are.

Have you had any undesirable side-effects since increasing? What were your bloods like? And was you doctor okay with you increasing? (Hope I'm not being too nosey).

I believe you are right about the body not producing any thyroid hormones after taking t3....I think that's why I've needed more and more.

Hope to hear you are well! X

[humanbean in reply to forever_tired]

Ooh, so much water has flowed under the bridge since I wrote the post you replied to. Everything has changed for me several times. I no longer take T3 only, I take a small dose of NDT and a minute dose of T3.

I stopped involving my doctor in my thyroid treatment before I ever wrote that post and have self-treated since then, so I haven't needed permission to do any of my experiments. I don't want to involve doctors in my thyroid treatment ever again if I can possibly avoid it.

My overall health is so much better than it was three years ago.

[forever_tired in reply to humanbean]

Thanks for replying HB, much appreciated. Unfortunately I need to involve the doctor as I plan on getting pregnant soon, so need to know everything is as tickety-boo as possible. Cheers.

[Donnell_65 in reply to humanbean]

"I stopped involving my doctor in my thyroid treatment before I ever wrote that post and have self-treated since then, so I haven't needed permission to do any of my experiments. I don't want to involve doctors in my thyroid treatment ever again if I can possibly avoid it." Love it !!

[Everdean]

Thank you Sandy12. That makes sense.

[StarFlower2]

I followed Dr Lowes protocol a few years ago and it didn’t work for me I felt awful. I had to take small amounts and build up.

[The_will_of_Jill in reply to StarFlower2]

May I ask what amount you are taking now StarFlower2 ?

[StarFlower2 in reply to The_will_of_Jill]

I reached 75mcg T3 with very slow increases of 6.25. I’m now reducing down under guidance from my endo.

[The_will_of_Jill in reply to StarFlower2]

Thanks for responding. I’m taking T3 only now and I feel like it’s working better than the WP-Thyroid and T3 combo was. Doctor was prescribing one grain of WP thyroid and 15 µg of T3. I didn’t feel any noticeable difference from when I was taking 125 µg of Synthroid and 15 µg of Cytomel (T3).

I had to get some extra T3, which is from another country, and a different brand.

Today took 31.25 mcg of T3 in the morning, and 22.5 mcg of T3 in afternoon. It seems to me that the T3 from my local pharmacy is stronger. I do this one sublingual but the other brand I swallow or chew and swallow.

[The_will_of_Jill in reply to The_will_of_Jill]

My carotid arteries were feeling a bit strange... almost like a slight pain in them but hard to describe for the first week (apprx) of adding the other brand. This seemed to stop when I quit doing them sublingual. Fillers?

Body clearing out the pipes (so to speak) from years of being under medicated?

I’m not sure. I definitely can feel my body coming back to life, and my mood seems to have lifted, but the severe brain fog and inability to focus on anything-even from moment to moment much of the time, is still there and very severe.

I am wondering how much my adrenals and B 12 deficiency are playing a part in all of this.

[StarFlower2]

It is always worth doing an adrenal saliva test. If they aren’t functioning correctly thyroid meds can’t do their job properly and more stress can be put on the adrenals.

I took my T3 4 tines a day at 5 hourly intervals, first dose on waking and last dose just before I went to sleep. You might need a pill cutter to do this. Make sure your first dose is the highest if you can’t take even doses.

Some brands are weaker than others, I find it works better taken sublingual.

[The_will_of_Jill in reply to StarFlower2]

Thank you. I will try and get some saliva tests (ordered online?).

I should probably start a new thread to ask about my carotid arteries feeling strange and all that..

🦋

[The_will_of_Jill in reply to StarFlower2]

PS how long from eating did you wait to take your T3 when taking every five hours?

[StarFlower2 in reply to The_will_of_Jill]

I’ve never found eating around my dose to make any difference but we are all different. Having said that I usually leave about 30mins and sometimes it can be over an hour.

[The_will_of_Jill in reply to StarFlower2]

Thanks again!

I’m very unwell.. and not really functioning much. I think I will try to do it three or four times a day now instead of just too. I took it three times a day for a couple days but decided maybe I didn’t need it in the evening and it does cost more money that way...

I’m broke!

But yeah if it will help I’ll do it.

I got some mercury thermometers as was suggested to me but I can’t figure out how to use it.

That’s how bad things are.

[StarFlower2 in reply to The_will_of_Jill]

Do your temps by take it 3, 6 and 9 hours after waking, add up all 3 readings and divide by 3.. this will give you your daily average. What I aim for is to get to 98.6.. below that I’m hypo.

Hope this helps.

[The_will_of_Jill in reply to StarFlower2]

I meant that I can’t figure out what my temperature is after I take it when I look at the thermometer. What I am experiencing I can only describe as dementia 😢

Thank you for all your help.

I’m sorry I keep bothering you.

I haven’t felt together enough to do my own new posting for a while now.

xx

[StarFlower2 in reply to The_will_of_Jill]

I understand, I’ve been there and it’s horrible to feel so I’ll. Try and look for the line on the thermometer which is at 98.6f or 37c that is where you need to get to.

If this is too much for you at this time I would not worry, leave temps for another time.

Are all your vitamin and iron labs at a good optimal level? You need to get all this checked. Magnesium Glycinate is a good supplement to take, it helps you to relax and can promote better sleep if you take it before bedtime.

I hope you feel better soon.