In 1958 I had the skin test for the BCG vaccination and there was no reaction. In other words I had not been in contact with anyone with TB and did not have natural immunity. The vaccination followed and it was horrid !

And so one would expect to be protected. I was constantly unwell - just feeling below par - and at 17 had my appendix removed and told there was absolutely nothing wrong with it - and given the impression I was wasting their time.

10 years later after the girls were born and I had struggled with various conditions that were mostly ignored - both by me and the Doc ! - I went into hospital and after many weeks was diagnosed with Ileo-Caecal TB. ( In the gut ! ) I was there for 22 weeks - 5 operations - and the treatment made me feel ghastly. The treatment went on for 15 months after leaving hospital - a cocktail of nasties....the names of which I still remember ! Oh and by the way - there was evidence of abscess scars behind the Caecum when they operated for the TB - so the cause of the appendix pain was missed. I could have been diagnosed 10 years earlier and yes I was lucky to survive those abscesses. Poor diagnosis again !

How was it that I became ill with TB in the gut and in no other part of the body....could it be that those nasties in the vaccine travelled through my body and took hold in the ileo-caecal valve. Maybe I was low in VitD - which is common in TB sufferers. But then I had been vaccinated - so why did I become ill ?

The point I am making is that this could well have been the beginning of the auto-immune issues that I have endured - firstly the Crohns was diagnosed - and 30 years later the Hashimotos - and the FM somewhere in between. More operations continued throughout my 30's....

Am not sure this vaccination still takes place - maybe more people became ill - it is after all a live culture they implanted into the body. We often read that a chronic or severe infection can be the beginning of Auto-immune illness. I blamed my feeling of poorliness throughout the next 30 years on all the illness from my 20's - and just accepted that I would always feel the way I did. The good news is that at last I feel those early years and the way I felt have left me and I am feeling stronger than ever.

So maybe Wakefield was onto something when he thought the MMR was linked to Autism...I do believe he was. I have relayed this tale to maybe help others understand why they have Hashimotos - and to look back in time and maybe the Root Cause is somewhere in the past....and sometimes a past that was out of our control....

Now its time to take control and to be well and happy.....

M x

41 Replies

Tuberculosis has been identified as the cause of several diseases by being an infective agent confined (more or less) to a single organ.

For example, it has been identified in the thyroid:

the adrenals:

the kidneys:

and many other organs.

(These links are only to support that it has been identified. There may be much better papers about each.)

On autism, however, at least some research seems to have identified distinct features very early in life - certainly pre-MMR age. If that is the case, then Wakefield may not have right!


Thank you Rod ! Not sure how your PubMed bits link to my gut TB - oh well perhaps its past my bedtime and I am tired.

I was told in hospital that some hysterectomies are often TB issues rather than support your point ! TB can infiltrate many parts of the body - including the brain barrier - TB meningitis

Autism - perhaps you watched the Gluten Summit where you may have heard a thing or two about gluten and autism - well that starts in the gut too.....

Plenty on PubMed about tuberculosis and gut (e.g. ileum) - but thought you had covered that quite handsomely!

After I posted I realised you were being factually informative - thank you !

Hello Marz,

You've had a very rough time over the years, but it's good to know that you are so positive about what has happened to you. It's interesting that you should mention Wakefield. I suggested the other day to some friends that he may in fact have been not so far from the truth and was met with expressions that can only be described as horrified. I have long wondered how much having so many injections plunged in my children's arms at such a tender age affected the development of their own natural immunity, and yet I know I wouldn't have dared to not let them have them. This was long before we knew that Caroline's immune system was seriously compromised.

I remember Caroline having the daisy prick at school followed by the TB jab. She had to have the daisy prick again when entering medical school, and again it didn't react, so it was followed by another jab. It all seemed pretty random I must say and certainly her arm on neither occasion developed the familiar lumpy scab that so many people have. However, she'd done what was necessary and apparently that was fine.

Years on from that we have discovered that her body harbours 2 stealth viruses, one since she was a baby and one from an unknown date and source.

I ask myself now, could we have avoided her current problems had we not interfered with the development of her own immune system when we allowed her to have those inoculations early in life? Why were the viruses and bacteria now making her ill and causing her thyroid to fail not identified years ago, and lastly just how much does the medical community really know about the long term effects of those same viral and bacterial infections (not to mention funguses and mycoplasmas).

There are now connections being made between Herpes, Epstein Barr and Cytomegalovirus infections with what has become termed Chronic Fatigue, and fungal infections with autism, and mycoplasmas with Gulf War Syndrome. I fear there is still a lot to be discovered however but hopefully one day people like you and Caroline will not have to suffer for years before help is at hand.

Best regards to you as ever, Jane x

Thank you Jane - as always so very thoughtful. So glad Caroline has you by her side. I think you are right that there is so much that the world has yet to learn. We have to do the best we can and listen to our bodies carefully for the fine tuning. I have been impressed by the Gluten Summit and completely agree with what I have heard - and it is the simplest adjustment to make in pursuit of health - but I still feel there are other factors at work. The gluten seems to weaken the gut/body allowing other things to infiltrate - could that be the vaccines and rogue viruses ? Good that I am a Grumpy Grandma as I am sure that if I was a young Mum today I would be asking for vaccinations done one at a time - if at all !

Take good care of you too - M x

If you listened to the Gluten Summit you would also have heard from the Godfather of Autoimmune Diseases, Prof Shoenfield who talked about a study done by Melissa Arbuckle in 2003 published in the New England Journal of Medicine. She looked at 130 patients who had been diagnosed with Lupus and who were veterans. Because they were veterans they had been in the armed forces which means they had had their blood drawn many times when they were healthy. The US Government has been saving all that blood since 1978! So Dr Arbuckle went and got permission to look at the blood for the 130 patients with Lupus when they were healthy all those years ago and what she found was that out of the 130, 115 of them had elevated autoantibodies to their own tissue for Lupus.

There are 7 antibodies that have been identified for Lupus. She found that all of them continued elevating and the average was nine years before there were any symptoms. They had elevated antibodies that were measurable, and each one of these seven kept going up every year. A little bit, some, a lot at once, and then some, a little, and then a lot later, until they plateaued. Then the symptoms came. Then six months to two years later, they got the diagnosis of lupus. So the question they came up with was, “When did they get lupus?” The Doctors position is that the mechanism began many many years before the symptoms ever started to show.

So Autoimmune conditions have long incubation periods and sometimes the incubation time may take 40 years.

In relation to your situation, its always easy to look back and add 2 + 2 but if you take this study and then add your obvious genes, you only need an environmental trigger which is probably gluten to set the train in motion. This was repeated time and time again this past week by numerous world leading Doctors who all repeated the same message. Thyroid and Celiac Disease is a known connection and low Vit D is also linked to CD. Are you on a Gluten Free Diet yet? :-D

Thank you for your contribution. I too heard that piece by Schoenfeld - I think I mentioned in a recent post that he was Top Man at the summit - for me ! I had actually written down the facts you mentioned ! As you know from listening to the summit the tests for coeliac in most places are woefully inadequate. Mine was negative too ! Yes I am gluten free - but more seriously of late ! Have to say that I have the constitution of an ox and have rarely suffered with any gut issues in the last 20 years that impacted on my life. Guess everything is relative.....have always watched my intake and always cooked from scratch....gluten was very low in my diet - maybe a sixth sense....

The Crohns was found at the same time as they removed the tuberculous bowel parts - so there had not been a long incubation period of anti-bodies in my case - unless the TB and the Crohns simmered away together for years before - which is of course possible..... I was only 27.

I feel a strong and healthy 67 year-old - and feel that a positive attitude has brought me to this point. I merely wanted to help others understand their bodies a little more - and was not trying to make sense of my own. I did that years ago :-)....and the journey continues. Acceptance is an important part of life. It was a factual piece devoid of what REALLY happened to me :-) Thank you for the reminders..... so glad you found the Gluten summit interesting....... it is still continuing ! Just wish it could be relayed to schools and colleges - not forgetting doctors :-)

I spoke to a nutritionist when my son was ababy. She happened to be at work doing a talk. Her thoughts were not that the mmr caused autism but that if your immune system is already compromised 3 jabs in one is just too much for your system and it over loads. I have not given my son the vaccines but I will give him the measles single jab as he is now 4, I give him prebiotics and pro, cod liver oil and 2 other supplements which escape me now all recommendes by the nutritionist. He also eats organically when at home and fairly healthily so I am giving him a fighting chance at the very least I feel.

Yes measles can be nasty I understand. They affect the inside of the body too. I had a very bad measles as a child and was in bed for ages.... It's amazing how a chance meeting with your Nutritionist has had such a positive impact.....good to read. Thank you.

Thank you. I had already researched the potential link and she just reaffirmed my thoughts :)

Another one of the speakers at the gluten summit spoke of research on pregnant mums and their unborn babies. They followed those babies to see how many of them became gluten intolerant or got CD. Then they looked at babies from birth to 6months I think it was and followed them and finally they didn't let babies have any gluten for the first year of their life. So far what they are finding and this is a very long study is that children that are not exposed to gluten in the first year of life including in the womb, and who allow their own immune system to develop properly without exposure to gluten, have a much better chance of not developing any gluten relating disease. They also showed a link to autism and ADHD etc.

Thank you - am sure the gems from the summit will stay with us....

Thank you - very interesting. Schoenfeld again !

Vaccines are really a huge lie! As an ex Nurse I learned well never to take them and never to give them to my child, which I have not. I was vaccinated like all kids in the 50's and this is clearly the link to so many children having diseases my age now and kids today.... autism! Let alone auto immune issues!! I can also add I have done plenty of research in this. As you know...Doctors are like robots, tapes in at Medical School and tapes out all their professional lives! Very few of them think for themselves because then this leads to be excluded from the Medical Professional bodies like the BMA or the AMA! They are harassed and singled out as "quacks" when they dare to research or share their truths of how medicines and vaccines harm and don't work or the kick back Big Pharma gets for being paid millions while you and I live a life of misery on one drug or another. Do not be fooled by their brainwashing. Vaccines have chemicals in them that NO human being, let alone a new born should have! If you do the research you realize that a body's natural immunity is always defiled by vaccines. How convenient it is for the pharmaceutical companies then to keep us sick and make them rich! Doctors also get a kick back from prescriptions. So where are YOU and your family in all of this?? You need to wake up from the media coma of complacency, stop thinking Doctors are GODS because they are so NOT and see the truth. There are tons of research available right here on the internet! Just Google "The truth about Vaccines" or on FB there are so many anti-vaccines pages. READ when they say and look at the facts. If you believe the doctor who is brainwashed to give a baby 36 to 46 vaccines before it reaches age 5 then what kind of rationality is this??? No we do not live in a 3rd world country. Good diet and hygiene have played an enormous role in eliminating diseases from the past. Even the evidence points to this and well as the research but that can not make the medical companies rich! So guess what, you are their experiment and your children! There is not one single reason for autism except vaccines! The rise in it correlates to the rise in vaccines! If you work in the hospitals you must take them, the military, go to school and college and so on...WHY? They do not create immunity in the body, only good healthy eating and cleanliness allow the body to stay strong in its own natural immunity, or use Garlic, which is an natural antibiotic and so many other herbs and foods. No money can be made from these but you can suffer all your life from these poisons (and make no mistake, mercury, formaldehyde and bovine or monkey or pig cells!) are entering your bloodstream PLUS the very disease you do not want! This is just insanity and it must stop! And Bill Gates who thinks he is on a mission from GOD< vaccinating the 3rd world. These people need FOOD, CLOTHING, SHELTER,EDUCATION just to begin! And they are dying from them, paralysed from them and so on...READ the reports people and see for yourself!

Admin Edit - 20. Do not name and shame identifiable individuals, including other forum members and members of the admin team. Names will be edited and/or deleted at the discretion of the Admin team.

I had the TB jab only in the early 60's, my mum a nurse, refused to let us be injected with anything else.... I had whooping cough and apparently was not as bad as the kids that had jabs for it. Having said that I have scarring on my lungs as a result of this and a weak chest.

It was during the 50's that thalidomide was the great new drug for morning sickness? Fortunately my mum refused that one as well. I grew up with children that had been affected by this dreadfull "safe" ? drug.

Whilst I worry about certain vaccines I do believe some are a necessary evil, however I do not think I would want my future grand children to have any vaccine other than one that was life saving.

Hmmmm, my mother died in 1953 of TB. I was born in 1952 so was given the BCG jab. Now, given recent thinking, either or both of those could be culprits in my subsequent AI history. There is research now suggesting that the BCG jab may actually CURE various AI conditions!

...really ? Do you have more information ?

Marz, there was a post on one of my other forums recently. Can't hoick it out for you now - about to go and sing onstage! - but if I remember(!) I'll try to look it out for you over the weekend. Remind me!!!

Just a gentle reminder ! M x

Straight from the Wiki article about BCG. I have not bothered about formatting, assuming anyone interested will jump to the article and its links.

Other uses

Micrograph showing granulomatous inflammation of bladder neck tissue due to Bacillus Calmette-Guérin used to treat bladder cancer, H&E stain

Leprosy: BCG has a protective effect against leprosy in the range of 26 to 41% based on controlled trials. The protective effect is somewhat larger based on case control and cohort studies—about 60%.[28][29] However BCG vaccine is not used specifically to control leprosy.

Buruli ulcer: BCG may protect against or delay the onset of Buruli ulcer.[30]

Cancer immunotherapy/cancer vaccine: A number of cancer vaccines use BCG as an adjuvant to provide an initial stimulation of the patients' immune systems.

BCG is used in the treatment of superficial forms of bladder cancer. Since the late 1980s, evidence has become available that instillation of BCG into the bladder is an effective form of immunotherapy in this disease.[31] While the mechanism is unclear, it appears a local immune reaction is mounted against the tumor. Immunotherapy with BCG prevents recurrence in up to 67% of cases of superficial bladder cancer.

Colorectal cancer[32]

Lung cancer



Equine sarcoid (in horses)

Diabetes, type 1: Clinical trials based on the work of Denise Faustman use BCG to induce production of TNF-α, which can kill the T-cells responsible for type 1 diabetes. In a Phase I, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial, two doses of the BCG vaccine were administered to three adults with long-term type 1 diabetes, resulting in elimination of the pancreas-harming cells, induction of regulatory T cells (Tregs) and a transient rise in C-peptide levels, suggestive of temporarily restored insulin production.[33] Studies using mice have shown a similar treatment results in a permanent cure for about one-third of the test subjects.[34]

Interstitial cystitis (IC) or painful bladder syndrome (PBS): BCG has been useful in treating some people with IC and/or PBS, which are chronic inflammatory bladder problems with unknown etiology. It is instilled directly into the bladder. How it works is unclear, but is likely immunotherapeutic, as the chronic inflammation could be the result of an autoimmune problem.[citation needed]

Multiple sclerosis: In humans, BCG has been shown to substantially reduce recurrence of symptoms in multiple sclerosis patients.[35] The frequency of new enhancing lesions as detected by Gd-enhanced MRI was reduced by more than half in 12 patients, comparing the six-month run-in phase to the six-month post-BCG phase of the experiment. Persistence at subsequent MR scan was reduced from 18 lesions to one lesion, and evolution to black holes was reduced from 28 to six lesions.[36] The conventional explanation of such protection is parasites (including bacteria) modulate the sensitivity of the immune system. BCG appears safe as a treatment for multiple sclerosis,[35][37] although it is not commonly used.

Parkinson's disease: In a mouse model of Parkinson's disease, BCG vaccination partially preserved striatal dopaminergic markers. The neuroprotective effect is associated with suppression in microglial activation and proliferation in mouse mid-brain area.[38] The neuroprotective effect was later found to be positively associated with regulatory T cell induced by BCG vaccination.[39]


My word that is interesting Rod - thank you. I don't remember the after-care they talk about regarding the wound/scab. Just knew I couldn't swim !

Hi Marz, this link is the right one I think:

A really interesting site - thank you for sharing - more reading !

Marz Thank you so much for posting - I have been busy all day but thinking about your post. I think it is a big part of my Mum's missing link. Sadly she died in 2011 from a perforated bowel, following surgery for polyp removal, undetected and sent back to her residential home where the GP failed to pick up the Urgent Out of Hours Service message and put her on a 7 hour visit list - too late for her.

She was ill all her life and yet so full of life and determination - she was like Pandora's box . She was always on a quest to Be Well and had had extensive surgery from spine to gallbladder , and from bladder to tonsils, she also had electric shock therapy in I think about 1945 as a teenager and then again in the 70's and 80's.

Guess what she had intestinal surgery at 4 weeks old in 1929 - TB very probably!

Just wish I could hug her and reassure her that it certainly wasn't all in her mind!

Thank you for sharing - so sad that your Mum suffered so much. Sounds very much as if she too suffered with her thyroid - low vitamins and minerals and low T3 affecting the bowel. Low mood and gall bladder indicate possible thyroid issues too. I really do feel for you as my lovely Mum died 14 years ago undiagnosed. She suffered several miscarriages and struggled with her weight. At menopause she lost her hair and the advice from her GP was to buy a wig. She worked in Fashion and this was difficult for her. A few years later she consulted her GP with an irregular heartbeat and was given angina tablets - which she took for the rest of her life. No tests done. In her 70's she suffered a non specific stroke and at 80 NHL took her into hospital where after six months of battling she lost the fight.

She too was an amazing lady - a great zest for life. A great hostess with so little money. An open house and an open heart.....always so positive and never complained. I can see her now rolling her cold hands up into her jumper as she rested after lunch....oh how I miss her. Also I was diagnosed after her death and just wish I knew half of what I now know so that I could have helped her in some small way. She knew something wasn't right as she took loads of supplements....

We are so fortunate to have the internet and a wider window of opportunity - we must make the most of it. Lets give our Mums a big hug - maybe we can light a candle and imagine the hugs ....

M x

Reading about your mother Marz, reminded me too much of the sadness when I lost my mum. She had been ill all her life, I am convinced without doubt it was undiagnosed thyroid problems. A lifetime of depression and anxiety, which made my life and that of my siblings very difficult. In the end she had vascular dementia and heart problems. Just wish I could have helped her with the knowledge I now have.

Thank you for posting

Thank you for your post Margo - it is so sad that our Mums - mostly - suffered so much......

Hi Marz - I can just imagine your Mum too - you describe her so well. I can identify hyper stages and hypo for mine. She was diagnosed hypo in her 50's but, by then I think, probably far too much damage had been done - far too many anti depressants and tranquilisers, steroids for Polymyalgia etc etc which she always tried to"get off" as quickly as possible and lots and lots of physical stress - a hysterectomy at 38 with no hormone replacement probably sealed her fate.

Quite a few in our support group have very parallel stories re their mothers.

As you say I am just so pleased I can know so much more and I am trying to help my daughter and son both now on a similar journey. Hopefully research will support them better. ( son's synacthen test next week).

Will be doing virtual hugs and candle lighting with you.

Thanks X

Thank you...... x

Just read an article that Johnson&Johnson admit using formaldehyde in their products disguising it with its scientific name. Thankfullt I have never used its products. And this supposedly a name we can trust! !

I'm sorry, that sounds hellish. I can't comment on whether the BCG could have actually given you TB but I have read that that it's not a terribly effective vaccine, so it would certainly be possible to acquire TB from somewhere and not have any protection from having had the vaccine.

... thank you for your post. I only wrote the sanitised version ! Your comment is interesting - did you read Rods post further up the page - where they use BCG vaccine for all sorts of disease treatments !

The reason I have contemplated the BCG as a possible cause - is that normally you inhale the TB organisms - which is why it is usually in the lung. I was clear there and it was only the ileo-caecal valve and ascending colon - so it makes me think it was systemic and lodged in a comfy area - or possibly a weak area for me ! Am not that concerned as all is well now. It was listening to the Gluten Summit and the 29 experts from around the world that got me thinking in more depth. I am also contemplating doing a Functional Medicine Course which you can do 67 need to keep the grey cells fully functioning !

I hadn't had time to read it but I just had a quick look. I knew TB could thrive in places other than the lung because my friend's dad had TB meningitis. He was Pakistani, so may have contracted it there. Anyway, I'm so glad you're ok now!

Ages ago I posted this:

Vitamin D and Tuberculosis



It's the same for Crohns too - I take 10,000 IU's of VitD and had to educate the Gastroenterologist ! It's good that we repeat informative threads as I'm sure we all have memory problems at times ! It's why TB is so prevalent in overcrowded cities of India for example - as the sun does not penetrate the very narrow alleys where the children play...rickets too of course.

Thank you Rod....

5 December 2013 Last updated at 01:00

TB vaccine 'could help prevent MS'

By Helen Briggs BBC News

An anti-tuberculosis vaccine could prevent multiple sclerosis, early research suggests.

A small-scale study by researchers at the Sapienza University of Rome has raised hopes that the disease can be warded off when early symptoms appear.

More research is needed before the BCG vaccine can be trialled on MS patients.

The MS Society said the chance to take a safe and effective preventative treatment after a first MS-like attack would be a huge step forward.

MS is a disease affecting nerves in the brain and spinal cord, causing problems with muscle movement, balance and vision.

Early signs include numbness, vision difficulties or problems with balance.

About half of people with a first episode of symptoms go on to develop MS within two years, while 10% have no more problems.

In the study, published in the journal Neurology, Italian researchers gave 33 people who had early signs of MS an injection of BCG vaccine.

The other 40 individuals in the study were given a placebo.

After five years, 30% of those who received the placebo had not developed MS, compared with 58% of those vaccinated.

"These results are promising, but much more research needs to be done to learn more about the safety and long-term effects of this live vaccine," said study leader Dr Giovanni Ristori.

"Doctors should not start using this vaccine to treat MS or clinically isolated syndrome."

Dr Susan Kohlhaas, head of biomedical research at the MS Society, said it was a small but interesting study.

"It's really encouraging to see positive results from this small trial, but they'll need validating in larger and longer-term studies before we know if the BCG vaccination can reduce the risk of someone developing MS.

"Ultimately, the chance to take a safe and effective preventative treatment after a first MS-like attack would be a huge step forward."

The findings add weight to a theory that exposure to infections early in life might reduce the risk of diseases such as MS by stimulating the body's immune system.

Dr Dennis Bourdette, of Oregon Health and Science University in Portland, US, said the research suggested "BCG could prove to be a 'safe, inexpensive, and handy' treatment for MS".

He wrote in an accompanying editorial in Neurology: "The theory is that exposure to certain infections early in life might reduce the risk of these diseases by inducing the body to develop a protective immunity."


Thanks Rod - missed this whilst on my travels to the UK. Don't like the sound of it to be honest - but what do I know !

Hi Marz,

Found you :)

That is so terrible along with 5 operations and points so much back to your vaccine. One day all will be revealed and the truth will be out.

Have been reading that some recent vaccines don't even do the job they are designed for.

Someone very close had one of the baby vaccines, aged 4 months and reacted badly to it, was inconsolable and ridged for over an hour and no amount of reassurance or cuddles helped. Baby was taken to Hospital in an emergency car, given something to calm it before falling asleep, all was then OK.

Whilst inconsolable and ridged this baby was bright red and hot all over it's body bar a small round sized 2p piece bit which was pure white up against the redness and in the middle was the small prick marking of where the vaccine needle went in.

Child has had oddities all it's life though perfectly normal to look at and is recently being assessed for Asperger's, though we suspect it is more 99.9% pathological Demand Avoidance. Parents have more knowledge of this than Medics it states on it's website. PDA was discovered in the 80's by Elizabeth Newsham who realised there was another category of Autism, a bit similar to Asperger's.

Only Asperger's can be diagnosed in our County unless we live in one of the Counties either side of us. So child might end up with the wrong label, only problem is teaching a child with PDA is different to teaching a child with Asperger's.

A neighbours child had a bad reaction to a vaccine when young, had a epileptic fit and completely went backwards in their learning after that episode, Mother said Daughter was assessed, experts said her brain was wired differently to normal brains and her Daughter was somewhere on the Autism scale, but they wern't really sure, Mum recently remarked that PDA fits her Daughter too, not Asperger's, that child is now 30 years old and still lives with Mum.

Vaccine Damage Payment - so the gov does know that vaccines can be detrimental.

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