Vaccine

[marianne88]

Hi. Has anyone had both shot of covid19 vaccines and then have blood drawn a couple days later for 15-3 tumor markers with a increase in the blood test. Thanks so much.

[SeattleMom]

Hi, Marianne,

I had my second COVID shot this past Friday, and have my monthly blood draw this coming Wednesday. So I’ll let you know. Did you have a rise in your markers?

Linda

[Ski2sea]

Hi There,I had my second Covid Vax on Monday. Had my blood draw last night. Waiting patiently for the results. As soon as I know, I'll update. I am curious as to what prompted your post. Did you have a rise?

Tara 🙂

[marianne88 in reply to Ski2sea]

Yes

[Mimiholl in reply to marianne88]

Hi my name is Marianne too . I have been on Ibrance and letrozole fo 4 years. I have finally not had new symptoms from the new Ibrance capsules. I also receive xegeva shot once a month. I am concerned about 2 things. I had my first COVID vaccine the end of January . My blood counts dropped dramatically around the same time, I ended up having 2 iron infusions and a blood transfusion. I’m not sure if the 2 are connected.

Also I am concerned about the possibility that because I am imuno compromised that my body may not have made any antibodies. I am hoping I can get a blood test to let me know. I was diagnosed July 2016 with stage 4 Mac, I had 26 weeks of radiation , and a lumpectomy and removal of 1 lymph

node. It had spread to t7 on my spine, where I also had radiation besides my rt breast ( 6 weeks of radiation.

Stay safe.

Marianne(Mimi)

[marianne88 in reply to Ski2sea]

How did your tumor markers come out??

[Mimiholl in reply to marianne88]

I fluctuate depending on the day in my cycle. The layer the day in the cycle the higher the number , beginning of cycle usually 17 the later usually 30.Marianne

[marianne88 in reply to Ski2sea]

Yes by 4 points 3 day after 2nd vaccine. How did you do?

[Hidden]

Hi marianne88 -

I'm late to the game here, but wanted to mention that not only did my TM's shoot up after my two doses, but I had progression, which I think was sudden...

I track my TM's closely (they are very indicative for me) and they were actually dropping a bit in Jan/Feb. I had both vaccine doses in March, and my TM's increased about 20%, which is very steep for me. I also had a scan late March, after nine months (!!! was dragging my heels!) and it showed pretty significant progression, i.e. growth in numerous existing bone mets and allegedly two new small mets. I was not surprised by this outcome because I have just enough of a bone met problem that, while they don't hurt me, I can feel when they're acting up. They were acting up, for sure.

My onc let me remain on treatment because I noted that I had had the vaccine, speculating that my pathetic little immune system was perhaps distracted by the vaccine and was not focusing on "job one" (fighting cancer). Honestly, I feel cancer free at the moment, no feelings of bone mets, since then. I have labs on Friday which should tell me if I made the right call re: not changing? If I had to be $1000, I'd say they're down...

So, in short, if you're speculating that the vaccine can cause an increase in markers, I'm right there with you...Small price to pay, for sure, but interesting...

Be well,

Lynn

[Pbsoup in reply to Hidden]

That is so interesting. Did your Onc think it could be the vaccine that caused the markers to rise etc? Ladies reading this...I would love to know if there are other stories like yours. (Maybe I'll start a new thread...nothing like anecdotal data to impress our doctors LOL)

I read it can cause lymph nodes to act up, and sure enough after my first vaccine i had a scan that flagged some "benign activity" in one of mine. It also said some existing mets were showing a bit more "activity." A week after the scan, a month after the vaccine, my markers shot up by 100pts. (My Onc. was pleased with the scan, and blithely assumed they would be down, so this was a bit irritating)

It crossed my mind it might be the vaccine...I asked Dr. Google but he was surprisingly ignorant on the subject...

Like you, I feel great. All my other blood work is that of a normal person's. It's just that between the markers and the scan "hot spots", I feel like the sword of Damocles is hanging over me. So would love to blame it on the vaccine... Not that I want the anti-vaxx brigade to have any ammunition. I am on team science on that one...

I am also interested in how you persevere with Ibrance. My doctor seems to be taking the same approach.

[Hidden in reply to Pbsoup]

Hi! Re: my doc and the decision to give things more time...

....I had also dabbled in the COC protocol beginning in Feb. Then had both vaccines in March. I felt less well than usual, i.e. very tired throughout the month, which made me cranky and prevented me from really exercising, which I feel is the most important arm of my non-traditional stuff...

So when doc and I were discussing, she did nod or say something in perhaps minor agreement re: the vaccines. She said "Let's give it a month for this stuff to wash out of your system....".

I also happened to see a GP in March, for the first time in **more than forty years** (!!), mostly because I was dabbling in the protocol and just wanted someone who would help me with my overall body, plus I figured that since I'm living longer than expected, I might at some point hit up against normal health issues? So I mentioned recent convo with oncologist and she also nodded.

They could be humoring me, but my onc really doesn't do that, she's quite frank and we usually discuss/debate things, and she offered no debate here...

We'll see what happens!

Lynn

[Pbsoup in reply to Hidden]

So did you give up on COC? Or are you persevering? I Imagine your fatigue could have been the vaccine. A friend--young and healthy, was knocked out for over a week.

I have been toying with trying COC, and the Jane McClelland stuff, but toodled around on the J Mc Facebook group and it felt like a lot of DIY enthusiasts trading PubMed articles like baseball cards--which is fine except it's people's lives at stake.

I am super careful about my diet--and take supplements per my nutritionist. I think it helps a lot--not as a cure (if only...), but with overall health and stamina--and hopefully immune system.

Boring thing is we moved to Sonoma with all the great wine--but every doctor I have, even ones who say diet is irrelevant, along with the national cancer society, furrows their brow at drinking.

And agree on exercise. It makes a huge difference. There is a whole research department devoted to exercise and cancer at Sloan Kettering.

I asked my doctor re his thoughts on vaccine/marker connection. Will let you know his take.

[Hidden in reply to Pbsoup]

Yes, i'd love to know what your doc says!

Yeah, I dabbled/am still dabbling a bit, meaning I met with their doc and got three of the four meds -- the metformin, statin, and anti-parasitical. They said they'd start up the antibiotics after I settled in with the first three...

I started to take them but was particularly concerned about the metformin because I fast 16+ hours/day. Not sure this concern was valid. But I began to have issues with lightheadedness (is this not one word?), e.g. a couple of times had to pull over driving. I really did not like the idea of messing with my body, which generally functions well on it's own, e.g. my glucose and cholesterol are fine....I had not had my cholesterol checked since I was in my early 20's and it is virtually unchanged! So I laid off the metformin, have stuck with the anti-parasitical (mostly) and take the statin on and off.

So I'm still on the fence about it....Will probably keep at it in a half-hearted way? I mean, there really are real studies showing promise for each of these drugs...I guess one side-effect of me not being on the board is that I haven't been taking my cancer very seriously....I barely think about it....I guess I need to redouble my efforts!

[Hidden in reply to Pbsoup]

AND! Re: Sonoma....Lucky lady!

FWIW, I've always felt that the blanket response "don't drink" was too easy/pat. So, inspired by your comment, I just started down that rabbit hole, looking at various studies, etc. , and and finding some very interesting stuff that *might* justify some drinking for you...and rationalize mine!

e.g. if you're post-menopausal, aren't taking HRT, and have ductal, not lobular cancer, I'm seeing stuff that indicates that the harm of drinking is greatly reduced. Plus, if you have an otherwise healthy lifestyle, e.g. BMI, exercise, nutrition, glucose, etc., I would argue that you'd be addressing some of the effect of correlation vs. cause-effect in the studies, i.e. poor lifestyle factors are probably over-represented the "drinking" cohort in many of the studies, vs. non-drinkers/never drinkers?

Anyway, I put it on my list for tomorrow to look better/deeper and will let you know if I find anything worth sharing. But only 50% chance I'll get to this right away...

Phew! If it weren't so late, I'd have a drink! Too tired to deal with the corkscrew! I'll queue that up for tomorrow!

Cheers!

Lynn

[Pbsoup in reply to Hidden]

Ha. Well then. I will wait for your research!

I used to work in marketing and remember commissioning studies to prove consumers would buy product x over y. It was all in asking the question to get the answer you wanted 😎

I confess I am not entirely tea total. But I used to indulge a bit more than perhaps was healthy. My husband runs a non profit and there were a lot of rubber chicken dinners with not always scintillating donors to get through.

Now I have a glass or two every couple of weeks (oh dear I sound boring) Also my rule is if I am going to risk my life for a drink, it has to be GOOD wine so that makes up for it. Quality over quantity I guess. 🍷.

[Hidden in reply to Pbsoup]

Okay, I *did* go down this rabbit hole today. It's a lot, so you might want to pour something to sip as you go through it...

This one study, the LACE (Life After Cancer Epidemiology) study, is by far the best I've seen and not "best" in the sense that it gives me the answer that I'm hoping for (!) but it's big, has nice data slices/cross tabs, and also discusses other big, important studies, like the famous "Nurses Health Study". Here's a link, but I encourage you to read not only the "conclusion" in the abstract section but also the more detailed "discussion" section at the bottom.

ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JC...

Please note that I haven't yet found anything related to the affect of alcohol in metastatic BC patients, specifically...and many of the studies out there are about how drinking might contribute to getting BC, i.e. primary, which I think is fairly well accepted. But the fact that this study looked at recurrence and mortality was a least a step in the right direction....

Here are some highlights (they're all direct quotes except for where an * = my comments.

First, the "conclusion" in the abstract states this:

"Consuming three to four alcoholic drinks or more per week after a breast cancer diagnosis may increase risk of breast cancer recurrence, particularly among postmenopausal and overweight/obese women, yet the cardioprotective effects of alcohol on non–breast cancer death were suggested."

*So it's a broad brush statement that drinking "may increase" risk of recurrence in previous BC patients (according to their data, yes, these are associated) *but notes that this is especially (mostly/only) true for two subgroups: overweight and post-menopausal. I read a study last night that found that virtually all risk from alcohol on BC in post-menopausal women was found in the subset who were taking HRT, so the alcohol amplified the hormonal effect, but the LACE study seems not to have sliced the data for this.

The "discussion" section includes these highlights:

- "Our results point to a potential positive association between alcohol intake and risk of recurrence and breast cancer death, which appeared to be limited to overweight and obese, but not normal weight, women."

- "Our observation of no relation of alcohol consumption with overall mortality among breast cancer survivors is consistent with several past studies. "

- "In the Nurses' Health Study (NHS), postdiagnosis moderate alcohol intake was not associated with overall mortality among 1,982 women diagnosed with invasive breast cancer and observed for 13.1 years.

- In a smaller prospective cohort study of 1,453 patients with breast cancer observed for 12.6 years in Italy, no association was observed between overall alcohol drinking and wine drinking within 1 year after diagnosis and risk of overall death and breast cancer death.

- Participants in this Italian study reported drinking more alcohol (≥ 7 drinks/wk) compared with United States study populations. " **I liked the quantity here!**

- "Alcohol can possibly influence the risk of primary breast cancer by increasing estrogen metabolism and endogenous estrogen levels in pre- and postmenopausal women. In addition to the effects of alcohol, obesity can elevate circulating sex hormones and insulin levels, thereby promoting estrogen production and breast cell proliferation, particularly among postmenopausal women. The combination of these mechanisms could perhaps explain why we observed an increased risk of recurrence among postmenopausal women, as well as those who were overweight and obese." ** again, remember about the HRT effect, not captured in this study. What I read last night said that about 25% of post-menopausal women in the study were taking HRT**

- "Furthermore, one could speculate that use of antiestrogen therapy, such as aromatase inhibitors, could possibly counteract the effects of alcohol on the endogenous estrogen supply. " (YAY Letrozole, Anastrazole, Exemestane (sp?)!)

- "In summary, we observed that regular drinking of at least three to four alcoholic drinks per week was associated with an increased risk of recurrence and death due to breast cancer among women previously diagnosed with early-stage breast cancer, independent of prognostic factors, and that the increased risk appeared to be confined to postmenopausal women and overweight/obese women. Furthermore, any alcohol consumption was associated with a possible reduction in non– breast cancer mortality due to the probable cardioprotective effects of alcohol. Our findings are consistent with alcohol's role in increasing risk of primary breast cancer, yet considering the few studies to date that have addressed alcohol and its influence on breast cancer prognosis, our results warrant confirmation in other large, prospective studies of breast cancer survivors with long-term follow-up."

That's it! Probably way more than you wanted but I might look for some prior posts/questions about drinking and include some of this for future readers. I'll mention that I'm leaning even more toward thinking that a bit of wine is okay for us, w/ MBC, especially if we are not overweight...

Lynn

[Iwasborntodothis in reply to Hidden]

I’ll drink to that! 🤪no seriously thanks for all of that research - I will continue to drink my nightly red wine and report on my outcome! Xoxoxo

[Pbsoup in reply to Hidden]

Yay! This is all very interesting! Thanks! I have been cautious given all of my doctors agree that drinking is not a good idea. But now I will feel much less concerned when I do indulge.

And Sandra--I am with you that I don't want to give the cancer one more iota of control over my life!!! However for me, cutting way back on alcohol (and meat and sugar for that matter) is not about giving cancer more control, it is about informed choices in consultation with doctors and nutritionists that support overall well being--which in turn supports my body in fighting the good fight. And by doctors and nutritionists, I mean people out of top hospitals, not with books to sell. (I share your skepticism on that!!)

But that's just me. An n=1.. I respect why others make different choices. The brilliance of this board is learning from each other's experiences and perspectives!!!

[Hidden in reply to Pbsoup]

I'm right there with you! I've made several dietary changes which *might* help with the cancer, but *definitely* help with how I feel.

I went vegan early on so that I could die with a less-filthy conscience (god, my brain is so shot, I could not spell this correctly without googling it!), do intermittent fasting (documented benefit), and pretty much gave up junky food (except for diet coke...).

These changes make me feel *more* in control. I feel better than I have in a very long time...

And I agree with both you and Sandra re: reading the books with a skeptical eye...Everyone has a "cure"....but our happiness/enjoyment should be weighed heavily in our dietary and lifestyle choices!

Be well! Lynn

[Iwasborntodothis]

I had my second vaccine ten days before my appointment blood draw and my numbers went down. Doc did t have any concerns about effect on my labs

[Hidden in reply to Iwasborntodothis]

Hi! Are you saying that your "numbers" went down, meaning blood counts, or TM's? Thanks! *Also, if it's TM's, did you recently change treatment, or are you on same? *THANKS*!

[Iwasborntodothis in reply to Hidden]

Ca15 went down dramatically because of switch to Xeloda

[Hidden]

Hi Sandra - I'm wondering about your statement re: having had early BC...e.g. what linkage do you see (I'm not pushing back, just seeking your expertise...).

My sis and I were both dx'd initially in our late 40's...Is this "early"? Do you think that our cancer is genetic, since we're the only females in our sibling set (both of our geneticists have said that it's likely genetic, just not a gene they've ID'd yet, but that feels squishy?) or perhaps related to what had been decades of moderate drinking? I'll note that I drink more regularly now, at times, since my lifestyle is more laid back with no work/children...plus, y'know, I'm like dying, so I'm in favor of indulging...

I'm not saying that your answer will change my behavior (!), but I would log it as learning...

Thanks!

Lynn

[Ps103-BTLOMS]

My 15-3 TM dropped 1000s of points after my 2nd COVID-19 vaccine shot. I had my first Gem/Carbo infusion on the same day.