I am just new to this approach. It makes sense to me that if the production of brain chemicals are made in the gut, this probably is the place to look for a solution. I have not read any posts using this approach so it looks like a fair bit of googling to find out which probiotic produces which neurotransmitter. Has anyone got knowledge of this? e.g. PS128 produces dopamine
focussing on gut microbiome - Restless Legs Syn...
focussing on gut microbiome
Written by
jilk
To view profiles and participate in discussions please or .
Read more about...
53 Replies
•
This 2019 published research piece by Chilean academics will cost you €39.95 and may not give you the answers that you're looking for:
"Do your gut microbes affect your brain dopamine?"
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/310...
This 2022 published US/Romanian study is free to access/download:
"Role of Microbiota-Gut-Brain Axis in Regulating Dopaminergic Signaling"
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/352...
thank you i will be looking at this further
Excellent reading material. Just starting but so eye opening already. Thank you for sharing!
• in reply toChrisColumbus
The 2019 study concludes that:
"Finally, there is growing
evidence that therapy for neuropsychiatric diseases could benefit from intervention at the level of intestinal bacteria, via either rational use of antibiotics or through identification of novel bacterial strains that affect the dopaminergic activity".
The conclusion says there are still too many variables and questions. If you want the full paper DM me.
Conclusion
There is current and emerging evidence showing that brain neurotransmission is affected by changes in gut microbes. Furthermore, the use of germ-free animal models has provided data that strongly supports the idea of early life gut colonization as a key event to brain development, which in turn affects behavior in later life. For instance, findings by Diaz Heijtz et al. (2011) suggest that the mesocorticolimbic circuit of germ-free mice is altered, as D1 mRNA expression is lower in germ-free mice in comparison to controls. The latter finding suggests that this receptor could be desensitized in the main projection area of the VTA. Whether results from an enhanced release of DA, as a consequence of the absence of gut microbes, cannot be known from this observation. However, the findings by Nishino et al. (2013) (low HVA/DA and DOPAC/DA ratios in the Pfc) seem to suggest that DA metabolism in the brain of germ-free animals is affected, thus supporting the idea that lack of gut microbes impact on dopaminergic neurotransmission, and therefore, intestinal colonization from birth is key to DA neurochemistry development within the CNS. We must stress that germ-free animals have no clinical relevance but are powerful tools for the study of microbiota-gut-brain axis.
The use of antibiotics also helps investigating the relevance of microbes on CNS function. These commonly used pharmacological agents, which are widely employed in the clinical practice for the treatment of bacterial infections, impact on gut microbiota composition, thus affecting the CNS, even without the need of the antibiotic getting into the bloodstream. This is highly relevant, as antibiotics are widely prescribed, including in early life stages, period in which gut microbiota composition is still getting established and neurodevelopment is ongoing. For this reason, the care and maintenance of gut microbiota should be considered to prevent factors that may trigger mental illness, associated, for example, with alterations in dopaminergic neurotransmission. Furthermore, it has to be considered that DA release is also modulated by other neural circuits and neurotransmitters (De Deurwaerdere and Di Giovanni 2017; Russo and Nestler 2013), and the effect of gut microbes on these other circuits cannot be ruled out, which leaves an open question: are the modulatory effects of intestinal microbes on CNS DA neurochemistry direct, or are they a consequence of changes non-dopaminergic circuits? Up to this review, this is still an unanswered question; nevertheless, the literature revised suggests a strong link between gut symbionts and DA neurochemistry, and moreover, an interesting relation between pharmacological agents directed to DA systems and gut microbiota modulation. Finally, there is growing evidence that therapy for neuropsychiatric diseases could benefit from intervention at the level of intestinal bacteria, via either rational use of antibiotics or through identification of novel bacterial strains that affect the dopaminergic activity.
thank you wide body. i went carnivore for a few months which cured my IBS, gave me 14% more bone density in the spine, and really weird ,made my hair so strong it will stand straight up without support. [i always had floppy hair] so now i am questioning what foods to eat on a keto approach, so i can avoid inflammation. starch is really bad'
I'm not sure that science is as advanced in this regard as one would hope. And the gut microbiome is very complex...it's not just a case of taking a particular probiotic to address a specific health condition.
Some probiotics have been identified as potentially helpful in relation to RLS but I'm not sure that there is sufficient evidence in each instance to support this.
jilk• in reply to
i agree very complex
There is a lot of research going on into the gut microbiome and gut and metabolic health, including the PREDICT and related studies led by scientists from Massachusetts General Hospital, Stanford Medicine, Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and King’s College London. This is a complex area with a lot of testing going on, and it is possibly too early to expect definitive proven straight line connections.
More or less I spent the last year to heal my gut, improve my digestation and “cultivate” my microbiom, because I’m 99% sure this is the key for me to get rid of my RLS. There are few research on the connection of SIBO and RLS, or how your microbiome could affect your circadian rithm an so on. After reading dozens of researches for me now it seems our microbiom could affect the human body nearly every way. In the past year I had gastroscopy and turned out I have inflamation in my duodenum (where iron should absorb), tested positive for SIBO via lactulosa breath test (very likely this is the cause of the inflamation as well), done microbiom test which showed I have high amount of pathogen bacteria in my intestines, while missing benefical lacto and bifido bacteria, despite I spent a lot of money on the best probiotics. I concluded that it’s not as easy to improve your microbiom as taking probiotics, but first you have to fix your existing gut issues, your digestation, eradicate SIBO, reduce the pathogens etc otherwise you won’t have the right environment for the bacteria in the probiotics to thrive, like you thow the grass seed onto concrete and wait to grow. It’s also important to use prebiotics to feed your good bacteria and eat more fiber in your diet. As soon as I’ll have something noticable in my “fix my gut journey” related to my RLS symptoms I’ll share with you, until now I have several benefits like way better digestation, no more knee pain, no more deep dark circles under my eyes, but no improvement of RLS. Until then feel free to ask on this topic.
Fascinating. Can I ask how you got these tests, and what you are doing to improve your gut ?
• in reply toBoldgirl45
I too had gut microbiome testing done about 4 years ago. While it was interesting, there was little that was of direct benefit in my quest to minimise/cure my RLS/PLMD.I had the testing done via a reputable research centre (linked to a university) here in Australia. It cost approximately 450 AUD (or 300 USD).
Boldgirl45• in reply to
Thanks for your input!
info@nutripath.com.au is the naturopath I saw in queensland australia, I did not keep the name or address of the lab i sent my specimens to, and the reports do not mention them.
I did not keep a record of the lab name . I had to go through a naturopath in queensland australia to get the report and it is not on the report either. sorry
No problem, thank you very much!
yes to improve my gut i kept food diary recording blood pressure and foods , cutting out until i went carnivore [almost] the coffee got in the way but still cured the gut , took about 3 months almost carnivore.'
I live in Europe and ordered the microbiome test from Germany, but there are more options in the USA I guess. In order to test for SIBO, you have to ask for a lactulose (do not mistake with lactose) breath test. Up to now there are three different types of SIBO idetified based on the type of gas produced by the bacterial overgrowth is your small intestine: hydrogen, methane and hydrogen sulphide. As far as I know, only trio smart device in the states can detect all three gases.
In order to fix my gut issues, I started a low FODMAP diet, used antimicrobials, increased slowly my fiber intake.
Thank you for this response. I also live in Europe so will look into this!
Medivere Mikrobiom Plus the test I recommend, because this contains not just information on your microbiome, but also on your digestation, like how you break down proteins, fat, starch etc, also check zonulin, which is a marker of leaky gut.
I went to a Nutripath in bundaberg queensland australia. the lab test showed amount of beneficial bacteria, pathogenic bacteria, opportunistic and dyspotic bacteria, yeasts, parasites,i had blastocystis homins, digestion and absorption markers and metabolic markers. cost about $240 plus nutripath fees. I cannot take ANY starch or fibre just different people. what works for me is right at the time good luck with that
I am just coming off carnivore which cured my IBS leaky gut from lab tests. then started getting reactions from beef. Just an example of food intollerance- today i decided to have a ,"normal"meal, at a pub, tempura batted fish three prawns with breadcrumbs and tomato lettuce onion salad. half an hour later I went into shock, pale sweaty , my eyesight went to just glare and shadows. i had to walk a short distance to the car and there was severe pain in the backs of my legs until i sat dowB/P went down to 76/49 fortunately the cortisone tab i took remedied the situation after an hour or so. ECG was normal, but the exercise monitor showed 22 minutes of exercise. then another rare night of no restless legs????
• in reply toCsiguZ
CsiguZ, did you ever have a herxheimer reaction with the probiotics? I read that you can actually Herx with probiotics no different than you can with antibiotics.
CsiguZ• in reply to
I haven’t, but I can imagine if a prebiotic have strong antimicrobial effect on a pathogen bacteria you have in your intestine, the die off of this pathogen could lead to herxheimer reaction.
Yes, it makes sense if your rls is realy a transmission problem, but if (as I belive) in most cases rhere is no broblem with the communication but the problem is over stimulation due to the nerves being infalamed and hypersensitive. The inflammation is most often caused by foods. Google 'inflammatory foods' and you'll see how many you're eating.
Actually not the food cause the inflamation, but most of the time the bacteria. Food intolerances are caused by bacterial fermentation in the small intestine, they produce gases and the pathogen bacteria produce toxins as well, which absorbs into to bloodstream, which could cause inflamation in all over the body. Even some bacteria produce hydrogen sulphide which is highly toxic gas and also enters into the bloodstream.
I would imagine that the foods that you're adding/avoiding to heal your microbiome are mostly the same as those which would reduce inflammation but as you've cured many of the symptoms of an out of balance microbiome the fact that it hasn't reduced your rls proves to me that rls is mistly a problem of inflammation rather than a microbiome problem. I would suggest that you check out the lists of inflammatory foods and add the missing ones to your list of foods to avoid. I reduced my rls in four days by reducing inflammation and eliminated it completely within nine months as it only reurned briefly whsn I recenntly suffered a slight stroke which I notice caused a lot of inflammation in the affedted lide of my body
This is so true. My RLS intensity was improved upon (not eliminated) once it was discovered I had a H. Pylori bacterial overgrowth in my gut and treated for it. This bacteria can produce cytokines that can be inflammatory to the CNS triggering RLegs.
Gut microbiome is fascinating and also frustrating because as you said it is most difficult to figure out what's going on inside when you can't "see" it. Changing my diet to a FODMAP diet has helped my RLS as well... but again, these have been baby steps for me as I still have RL nightly b/t hrs of 1 am -4 am primarily... but the severity is lessened now.
I’m also on low fodmap diet, but fortunately after several months now I can tolerate most of the fodmaps, so I reintroduce and eat them in a moderate amount, except gluten, as it seems my body still react to it. But I’m 100% sure that even though I took several herbal antimicrobials etc, Pseudomonas bacteria are still colonised my small intestine causing the inflamation there. Unfortunately it’s hard to get rid of this bacteria and at the moment I’m reluctant to take antibiotics or antimicrobials again, because I’m afraid I’d mess my well functioning digestation.
It's a delicate balance and the problem is we don't know how good we have it until we push the envelop to try and tweak the balance just a tab more and then boom... we're out of balance again without knowing the good from the bad bacteria count. Most broad spectrum antibiotics just knock everything out at once. I've read that vinegar is helpful to fight pseudomoas a. as well as oregano oil. Do you try to keep an alkaline ph? I try to start my mornings with tepid water and a tbsp of fresh squeezed lemon. I find this gives me such a better "gut" feeling.
Hi - please see my questions under a comment further up this post 
thank you, them and a lot more . no starchy food, fibre etc I am slowly tweaking to find triggers while increasing variety of foods
I know it’s pretty hard to find the right diet as each of us have different digestive issues, different pathogens etc. When I started my low FODMAP diet I was reacted to all foods high is any FODMAPS, like lactose, onion, garlic, apple, peach, cherries and so on. Now I can tolerate all of these, however I still do not eat high amount of these foods. I’m pretty sure if we manage to reduce our pathogen bacteria, than we could reduce gut inflamation and leaky gut and this is the way to get rid of our food intolerances.
A plant-based diet increases a health-promoting microbiome. A meat-based one does the opposite. My RLS has vanished after a few months on a plant-based diet and I feel much better with more energy. Elite athletes are finding they perform better on a plan-based diet full of complex carbs high in fiber. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
In my case low fodmap diet was the key as bacteria in my small intestine fermented fruits and vegetables high in fodmaps before it was digested by my gut and now I try to keep a balanced diet, including lots of fruit and vegetables with full of fibers, but also eat fish and poultry.
thank you I have considered this ,how do you think I would go if I cannot not tolerate any form of starch. the slightest bit of starch pushes my. B/P from 120 to 160 in one day. There have been many people switch from carnivore to plant based, and vise versa with great results, not necessarily with RLS
I totally agree but I seem to be different as fruit and veg are causing me massive inflammation, fibre causes me constipation all of which was fixed on carnivore, however I am exploring ways to expand my plant intake. I found carnivore and vegan both have had miraculous cures on a whole range of illnesses, just to add to the confusion.
I wish! unfortunately my gut led me to carnivore where fibromyalgia symptoms went except restless legs. starches had in the past have given me cognitive shut down, dyslexia ,picks type of dementia ; two pieces of bread will take my PB from 120/70 to 160/80 in one day. I would love the luxery of a plant based diet believe you me
this is why it is so hard for so many people, i cured my IBS , with a carnivore diet, lab tests showed a healthy biome, not necessarily a broad one. only RLS now left from fibromyalgia, i am trying out new vegs now
Hi Jill - I was interested in your post and how the carnivore diet helped you so much. You seem to be sensitive to many veg, seeds, grains etc. I often wonder if it could be the lectins in these foods that cause inflammation. I eat a low lectin diet which includes lots of low lectin veg, fruits, nuts. I pressure cook any beans and avoid most grains. I do have a small amount of grass fed meats. I certainly have cured all illness except for RLS which is persistent but manageable with medicinal cannabis.
everydayhealth.com/diet-nut...
thankyou you have done well, I am the same boat; although I have had some rls free nights. I am looking at the utube by dr eric berg, who mentions restless legs in his utube .. vit b1 (thiamine) the great imitator of illness by dr eric berg. this vitamin is in just about every part of the body. Just waiting on delivery. again congratulations for your detective work on diet I can appreciate the effort required to do this successfully and the rewards of health you are enjoying.
I would be interested in following this up as well. Makes sense to me.
I saw a video on YouTube some time ago that talked about leaky gut being related to RLS. I’ll see if I can find the reference.
Hi jilk, since your post I've been doing some research here and there and looking for specific strains that are supposed to help with certain chronic (but relatively mild) conditions that I have. I did a great deal of research many years ago and toyed with different strains for a month here and there, but ultimately gave up because of the vastness and complexity of the gut microbiome. Anyways, I came very close to pulling the trigger several times on certain probiotic supplements over the last two weeks but finally decided on kimchi and sauerkraut (must be raw and unpasteurized). I plan on following the 10 weeks completed in the following clinical trial:
med.stanford.edu/news/all-n...
jilk• in reply to
i am curious about genetic factors in the gut. what if we found the best suited food , for our genetic make up, would it not then produce the perfect gut biome for our genes? I am thinking of the work done by the dentist western price, who demonstrated drastic results when people gave up their traditional diets.
• in reply tojilk
I think we would need to go back close to a million years to find our traditional diet. I like Weston Price. He compared modern faces to that of more native people. Their smile/palate were broader, as their whole face. Some people trace the downfall of our collective health to the making of bread about 10,000 years ago in Egypt and the downfall of Native American health with the growing of corn. 10,000 years is the blink of an eye in terms of hominin dietary history. As far as I can tell we were scavengers that often went hungry. And we ate a lot of soil organisms because our ancestors didn’t believe in germ theory.
I would get lost in the weeds if I threw genes into the microbiome mix. I already am lost. What’s discouraging is that even people in South Korea (who eat a ton of kimchi) suffer from chronic fatigue and IBS in about the same ratio as the rest of the world. Those are the two conditions I’m hoping to improve.
jilk• in reply to
i agree . in order to get well, i ended up doing the carnivore diet which healed ibs confirmed by lab tests, now it looks like i also have a vitamin b1 deficiency , which based on quite a few nights of not needing siferol (every second night ) may even clear the last of my fibromyalgia and rls
Not what you're looking for?
You may also like...
The Gut...Microbiome - The Final Frontier?
http://www.taconic.com/taconic-insights/microbiome-and-germ-free/parkinsons-disease-and-microbiome.h
gut microbiota and dopamine
A growing body of evidence showed that gut microbiota dysbiosis might be associated with the...
RLS GUT PROBLEMS
I post fairly often on this forumMy name is William Henry
I had a Zoom Session with RLS-UK just...
SIBO yeast gut
Hi
Has anyone found restless leg relief from testing for SIBO (and I guess then treating it?) I’m...
Brain gut connection
I just started watching this series on brain health. While they are not directly talking about RLS,...
Related Posts
Map my gut
The Role of Gut Microbiome in Sleep Quality and Health: Dietary Strategies for Microbiota Support
Low Dose dipyridamole?Moderation team
KaarinaAdministrator
