I am bringing this up for discussion and as a recommendation. Since RLS people have a shortage of GABA in their brains and an excess of glutamate, it helps to understand what these substances are and do. They are both neurotransmitters your body produces (one from the other) and while glutamate is Excitatory, Gaba is Inhibitory.
That means glutamate causes over-excitability to the nerves, etc., while GABA is calming and turns off that excitability.
I know here and there I have read that RLS people should not take GABA since it MAY turn back into glutamate. HOWEVER, I decided some time ago (back in early June) upon recommendation of Julia Ross's excellent book The Mood Cure, to take some GABA, along with some of the other things she recommends. I had to play around with dosage for a few days, when I took it, and what form seemed to work the best. BUT, if I left it out, trouble started again, so I have been taking it rather consistently since then.
I did not realize until recently quite how important it was. I now consider it one of the best of the amino acids recommended, for stopping/greatly lessening RLS and helping so much with sleep. I never have had any problem with it causing RLS ( by presumably turning back into glutamate.)
So, I am recommending to anyone out there to give it a try. I have used Solgar GABA 500 mg, and (this one I REALLY find effective)Source Naturals GABA CALM. It has a few other things in it, but the beauty of it is that it is sublingual (under your tongue,) so it gets into your system fast, as well as by-passes your digestive system (some things are better that way.) It is great before bed and in the middle of the night.
And, I will mention this also. Yes, I take an assortment of other things. This is because RLS has several causes (iron, folate, GABA, Dopamine deficiencies by problems with absorption or not crossing the blood/brain barrier). And stress (over- active adrenals) can make the problem worse. Plus food and environmental triggers. And spinal mis-alignment. So one does not always know which cause or body system or trigger is acting up at any one time. So I have an arsenal of things to address it. Sometimes it might be one thing, sometimes another.
BUT, I will say again that GABA is one of the best. At least for me. We are all different and what may work for me, may not work for someone else. But, I suggest giving it a try.
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Ht Lauraflora. Your info re Gaba and glutamate is very pertinent to me.Am going to check out Julia Ross' book. Any other info esp re glutamate will be greatly appreciated. I have started researching glutamate and diet . I believe food plays a big part in successful rls treatment. Do you try to eliminate glutamate foods. ?Please share. I am trying to stay away from prescription meds as much as possible. Thank you ahead of time for any help. Although I was a nurse, I'm a real novice re rls. Take care Burma (burmag). PS Maybe a reason that Gaba doesn't work sometimes is that there is already too much glutamate in our diet and it triggers the Gaba neurotransmitter to turn into glutamate?
I've looked into this but like you say taking GABA can result in excess glutamate so tend to get confused on it!
I think though I might just follow your lead because as you say it is important.
I've read the same thing. I believe the offset to glutamate is l-theanine, but you must be careful not to take too much as it can make you alert (harming sleep).
Yes I have tried it- after reading the same book. I find it relaxing but it doesn't take RLS symptoms away for me. How much do you take to help symptoms?Does it eliminate them for you?x
Yes, I have tried it too - following one of your earlier posts. Separately, and in combinations with other supplements. For about 2-3months. Tried hard, but didn't do anything for my rls. Unfortunately.
Hopefully the gaba ot supplement-combo works for more people. If so, it would be helpful to describe the rls you have/had. Mine is daily, previously all day whenever I tried to get some rest (sit still etc), but legs only. And racing brain. Diurnal dymptoms now largely reduced I think owing to better sleep at night, owing to switch to tramadol and gabapentin (only taken in the evening). For the moment .....
I have rls because I have gradually come off Tramadol, it’s highly addictive, and I was on it for over 10 years for back pain. I did not like having my life dependant on taking it and am now trying to get rid of the rls without the usual prescription drugs like Sifrol which is also addictive. Have recently been lent a vibration machine and seeing how that goes, and also checking out Pregabalin or Lyrica.
Ah - amateur biochemistry! Here is a good discussion on GABA - The conclusion... "As has been stated, current scientific knowledge indicates that GABA supplements cannot cross the blood-brain barrier and cause any noticeable effect there. However there are many reviews online from people who have had positive effects using GABA supplements, whether due to placebo effect, potential blood-brain barrier hyperpermeability, or a possible connection through the enteric nervous system." nootriment.com/gaba-supplem...
DicCarlson, the text on the site is interesting. But I have developed quite some scepticism when information originates from sponsored or selling sites - like this one. I'd rather rely on more independent sites, e.g. the various rls-sites, univ/med school sites etc.
I have not tried gaba due to reading it was not bio- available in pill form. maybe the sublingual tabs are metabolized differently. Might be worth a try!
Well, thanks for all your comment. I am currently only using the GABA
Calm, which has 125 mg of GABA, kind of on as as-needed basis. In the beginning I used more - 500 mg, but as things change in one's body, I have cut down. Accordingly, now I seem to need less, which is a good thing.
I think these things affect people differently, so one has to try for themselves. Certainly, what works for one does not necessarily work for someone else. But, I would rather try something than not try it. And go from there. And yes, just reading on Amazon the various reviews (none of which were for RLS people) some people found it effective, and other people, not so, for calming and sleep.
But, as Ross's book says, start with the lowest, 100 mg, dose. Don't start with a high dose. That is her advice for any of the aminos. Less is more, and more may be too much.
And, tho taking it by mouth in which case it goes thru your digestive system and may not be effective, taking it sublingually may get it into your system differently and better. One can only try, just like if your doctor gave you a prescription to try. Some prescriptions work for some people and not for others. We're all guinea pigs, when it comes down to it!
Sorry I did not see this sooner. I have neglected my email recently, and then had to reset my password for this site.
Anyway, I also take Amlodipine as well as levothyroxine, and I do not feel they have any affect on my RLS. I have had RLS since a child, tho not too badly, and at times none at all. (Type 1, I think it is called, as compared to Type 2, which is brought on by accidents, injuries, surgeries, etc.)
I have found that GABA helps quite a bit, as long as one does not take too much. I started taking GABA for sleep, as for the last 9 years I have had a big problem sleeping. I traced that down to HPA axis dysfunction (you can look that up if needed.) There is quite a bit of info on GABA online, some controversial, some good, some not so good. Some people find it helpful for various things - sleep, RLS, anxiety, OCD, depression, etc.: some people find it useless. But that is true of many things, whether supplements or drugs. So ultimately one must try things and see what happens for them and their problem.
I first read of GABA in one of Julia Ross's books, The Mood Cure. She had suggestions for sleep, and some for RLS. One of the things she explained particularly made sense about supplements, and that is that if a person is deficient in something (whether a vitamin, mineral, or neurotransmitter) it takes a while to build up the stores in one's body. I knew a lot about vitamins/minerals, but very little about neurotransmitters, of which GABA is one. After building up the stores, then cutting down the amount taken is a good idea. I found taking quite a bit of GABA to be very helpful, with my sleeping problem, and as a side affect, my RLS, tho that was not mentioned in reasons to take GABA.
So, for several months maybe 1/2 a year, I took two 500mg caps of GABA before bed (sometimes in the evening as well,) and two more when I woke up to go to the bathroom, and maybe two more again. Sleep was good, RLS was good. Then, all I can say is my stores were filled, and I started waking up again, RLS was bad, couldn't turn off my brain, etc. So, I cut the amount down, realizing I was overdoing the GABA and most likely some of it was being turned into glutamate which is stimulating. Now I take only one at a time, and only two (or maybe three times) thru the evening and night. So I have effectively cut the amount I take in half or even less than before. Sleep is good again, RLS is more or less gone. If I feel any at night, I will rub on progesterone cream (bioidentical,) as there is a link between RLS and progesterone.
Yes, I do use Solgar GABA, and I often open the capsule and pour the powder under my tongue, for quicker results. It is only mildly sweet and otherwise has no flavour. I don't think it has cured me; I think I will need to keep it up forever.
Another thing is that there are lists of foods that contain glutamate, for those who want it and those who need to avoid it. I used to have a link to such a list, but I cannot find it now. I cannot take codeine at all, and do not have much tolerance for caffeine, myself. And most tonic water on the market does not seem to have the real quinine which is supposed to be helpful for RLS, just artificial flavouring. I also take magnesium citrate, and iron bisglycinate, which are both recommended for RLS people. But the GABA has been a real help (as long as I don't take too much.)
Hello again, Jan, I wanted to mention something that occurred lately, in respect to Gaba. I know I told you that I have been taking less of an amount of Gaba than I did before-generally only three 500mg capsules in one night, spread out as I wake up a few times.
Well, I did fine doing that for about 3 weeks. Then, in this last week, my sleep started to be poor again, my RLS started up again, and I wondered if I had to cut down again, or maybe take more? Which way do I need to go, this time? So after 3 nights in a row, of tossing and turning, waking up, and RLS running thru my legs, I decided "Well, perhaps I should take more as an experiment, and if I can't sleep the rest of the night, I will take a nap during the day. At least I will have some information to go on about whether I need more or less Gaba.) So this was about 3 am. I took 2 500mg. And what do you know? I fell asleep in a while, my RLS settled down, and I slept until about 730. So, clearly, I needed more, not less. I have kept this up the last few nights - taking 2 if I wake up, esp with RLS starting up again. And have been sleeping better, and longer.
My conclusion is that sometimes I need more and sometimes I need less. If I have been taking less for awhile, then eventually I will need more again. So , I just have to go with that and not worry about it. The fluctuations could be caused by different things which may be hard to pin down, so maybe I shouldn't try too hard. It could be sort of like - on some days one is hungrier, on other days, not so much. Meaning regular fluctuations we go thru, not anything really wrong.
So, think of that when you are doing your DIY (as I am,) and also, I have read reviews on Amazon where people use Gaba, (for different things as well as sleep, )and they use varying amounts, some more some less, and change their own amounts as needed.
So, Jan, Here is an update on my experimentation with the info on dr.prevent.com/restless-legs/ I had been concentrating on GABA for all this time, which helped for a long while but then seemed not to help, but, rereading the article, I read again the dr. advised Dopa first. So, I got myself some mucuna dopa by Source Naturals, on Amazon, and lo and behold, it seems to be the missing link. It helped the first night, and tho I have had to play around a bit, it has been so helpful. I take Gaba AND Dopa and they seem to work much better together. I take both before bed, and then when I wake up about 430 am. (I used to wake up about 130, 230.) Read about it and the way these neurotransmitters work in the brain and see if it might be helpful to you. Hope at least this info helps. Laura
Here I am again. After my last message to you, above, I have to add more information. What I said about taking more GABA (and sometimes less) may be correct, or may not. Read on and I will explain. The one time I mention that I took more GABA and it worked, the next night it did not work. In fact, it was one of the worst nights I have had recently as far as RLS and disturbed sleep. So it was back to researching this again. And this is what I found:
(I will say tho that I started taking a significant amount of GABA almost 1 year ago, and only recently did it start to cause problems. So I am on to something, meaning that GABA for the brain is a good thing for RLS and sleep, but perhaps I need a different form or method of getting it.)
Taurine is recommended in two articles I am sending you. One is found at
drprevent.com/restless-legs/ and the other at schoolafm.com/ws_clinical_know/schoolafm.com/ws_clinical_k... Also l-theanine. They are supposed to help with GABA in the brain, and what I have read, they do not convert to glutamate (which GABA capsules can do, which causes the excitatory symptoms.) So I am switching to taking those, perhaps with a small amount of GABA, or not. I guess this does happen with prescription drugs, where they work well for awhile, and then the body needs something different.
I think you will find the articles informative also, as they go into the body systems responsible for, or affected by, RLS, as well as circadian rhythm. And as is stated, the major cause for one person may not be the same as for another, so for you it may not be the same as it seems to be for me. It is also good that there is more info, and that more research into RLS is being done.
I hope this is helpful to you. I think the articles will be, as the authors have much more experience and knowledge than I do about RLS. I only have what I have read about and what I have tried on myself to go on.
Hi Laura...Thank you so very much for your replies to me recently...
Very helpful...
I'm wondering how your restless legs are currently..?
What I have been doing is DIY with help.. loads of research etc.
It could be stress in my case or thyroid problems.. hypothyroidism...or lack of minerals or vitamins or too much of something to alter brain neurotransmitters...
So.... I've been taking Gaba powder....
from Piping Rock.com.
No additives it says.. and recommends 500 mg X3 per day..
I also take powdered ashwaganda root...
but recently have given both a rest for a week or two..
I think the Gaba helpful although I only took 500 mg before bed...scared it might harm me...but its fine..
I even told my gp I was going to try this first.. instead of the medication she wanted to start me on that could cause augmentation.
Yes..l theanine is found in green tea I believe which I do drink each day.
Yes..I don't think glutamate is good.. found in bread also I think..?
So I've given up bread... think this helps..
The circadian rhythms of restless legs leads me to think thyroid could be responsible..?
Love to hear from you again...
I must say.. touch wood..my restless legs has been bit better lately...
I have a good natural died... hardly any sugar which can trigger I think..
Just a couple of little cakes per week.. occasionally a piece of dark chocolate..
Hi Jan, I don't know if you saw my post of 2 days ago with the info on Dopamine, from drprevent.com/restless-legs/ , as the chronology of our messages has gotten a bit mixed up. However, I do hope you check out what the dr. has to say about Dopamine, as well as Gaba.
I can see, in respect to myself anyway, that it is the two neurotransmitters, not just one, that make a difference. It seems to explain the fluctuations of how well Gaba would work, and then it didn't work for several days or even a week or so. Dopamine is available in different foods, as well as activities and relationships, and so a person's dopamine level can change around. Perhaps that is how things fluctuate as to RLS and sleep.
I have wondered about the circadian rhythm of all this, as well. If I take a nap in the afternoon, which occasionally I do, I do not get RLS and I do not need anything to get to or stay asleep. It is only at night that it happens. I wonder what part of the brain controls all of that, what part controls the circadian rhythm. I will have to look that up. I know a bit, like sunlight and darkness, but I suspect it has to do with the HPA axis, as well. (Look that up.)
And, of course, it is funny how, at least for me, if I have RLS and stand up, it goes away. So, some of it is positional, maybe the pressure of laying or sitting on the nerves. Yet they seem to be more sensitive to this at night.
I also have a rather clean diet. I stay away from things and sugar and read labels, and cook many things from scratch. Also I drink green tea, but
you have to drink a lot to get enough theanine. So I take that in 200 mg caps. It is helpful, but not enough by itself.
Hi again...yes.. we've got a bit out of sync...but..Re standing up....
I think if we have restless legs at night...it helps to walk around..
Also..I'm quite often woken up by a full bladder...so I walk to the loo..
I sometimes think that a full bladder triggers restless legs..?
So..in conclusion..do you think that reflexology would help...?..or pressure on base of feet has something to do with it at night ?
There are sooo many things that could contribute to restless legs...
I'm trying my hardest to work it out for myself..
I soooo wish that the doctors and specialists would take it more seriously...but at the end of the day...we are all different and so..I think it definitely should be individually tailored ..(the remedy that is) to each person's body..
Ah, yes. The full bladder does set off RLS. And certainly as one gets older those trips to the bathroom are more common. Yes, we are all different so what works for one, may not work for another. What sets RLS off for one, may not set it off for another. I first had it when I was about 9 or 10 yrs. old. Then it went away till I was in my 20's. From there on, it was sporadic over the years on and off, until after menopause it seemed to come back more prominently. Tho, even now, it may bother me one night, but not another. How about yourself?
Yes..I can go a few nights without it.. and I think..."I've cracked it ".. perhaps I did something or took something different...but then it returns..A full bladder..I need to get up at least twice a night.. and it does coincide with rls attack...
I have made some magnesium flakes mixed with coconut oil for tonight to put on legs before I go bed... instead it leaving it till I'm woken up...but mag tablets on standby by bed and soon a full blood test hopefully incorporating thyroid and iron ..but d and calcium etc..
I do believe stress plays a big part and health of gut...so trying to have as much probiotics as possible..
Hope you have found more relief lately from "this awful problem".
I am 77 and have both gluten intolerance and hypothyroid. I go to the gym three days per week and row on my magnetic rower for about two hours per week. Doing less exercise seems to increase the RLS.
Unfortunately I didn't discover the two problems were related until about 20 years ago. I think maybe the high thyroid supplement (150 mcg) might have started my RLS problem. I am currently doing the following, but I intend to try the GABA again.
First, I eat my last carbs, including any sugar, no later than 6 pm.
Second, about 90 minutes before bedtime, I take 30 drops of Trittico, 15 mg of Melatonin and 0.18 mg Pramiprexolo.
Third, I take my thyroid medication about 3 pm, as it seems to help late night sleep.
I would like to stop the medications, but haven't found an alternative, actually not having carbs after 6 pm seems to help the most.
I ordered the GABA today, so I will see if it is a plus or not.
Interesting! It seems that different people have different triggers for RLS, and different things that help. One has to try things and see what helps. Do read up on Gaba yourself. Some people find it not helpful at all, and others, like myself, find it very helpful. It is somewhat controversial among drs - mainstream and alternative. Buy a small bottle to give it a try. Let me know how it goes.
This is the very first time i had heard about glutamine as a negative factor in RLS. Thanks to your recommendations with GABA and glutamine i am able for the first time in about 40 years to come off Requip slowly....high stress days will be there but Requip made it worse. All the time and money spent on Dr s and drugs!!
This is my second reply because i did use GABA and fiund some improvement. What REALLY us helping us going off glutamate. I found a diet that is really helping. Mostly avoiding tomato products, spinach, parmasean cheese, all dried fruit, grapes , bone broth, processed foods, because of possible MSG.
Yes, avoidance of certain foods does help. I found bone broth to be the worst! Tho several of the others don't bother me, or not much; such as tomatoes, parmesan cheese, grapes. I am careful of what I eat anyway-as natural and whole as possible-tho I am not a fanatic. Sometimes it is timing. I often have whey protein powder stirred into oatbran at breakfast. (Whey does have glutamate.) If I have it early in the day it has no rls affect. But if I have it at night, it does.
I used to take a whole slew of things to help with sleep as well as rls. Sleep problems can be a whole other issue not related to rls. Someone asked me how I could tell what helped or not, since I took so many at one time. So, by the process of taking one at a time, I found, hands down, it was the gaba that helped the most for the rls. Also helpful for sleep, but not the only thing. I also take small amounts of dhea-25mg- at night to turn off cortisol spikes. Long story but HPA dysfunction which causes the adrenals to spike at night. Look it up.
Also, if I have some rls later toward morning, I rub on bioidentical progesterone creme, take another gaba and maybe another dhea, and everything calms down again. Off to sleep I go. If I don't take the above things again, I do not go back to sleep and the rls continues.
I have used theanine also, but if for whatever reason I had to choose only 3 things, it would be gaba, dhea and bioidentical progesterone creme. (And b complex thru the day.)
Thanks so very much for all the great info. Hadnt thought of taking GABA prn. Are you off of, or were you ever on Requip? I am going off...down to 1.5 from 2 .5mg tabs. Lots of side effects and augmentation. More people need this information. I am working with a neurologist at the Mao Clinc. Perhsps he can help others like us.
Sorry I took long to reply. I haven't been on here for some time, altho I do check in to read a few postings here and there.
Yes, I do still take gaba (the amino acid, not gabapentine.) I take less of it, or maybe more sparingly is a better description. I also always take b complex when taking gaba, as I have read that one's body needs one of the b's to keep gaba as gaba and not turn into glutamate. Not sure how accurate that is, but b complex is good to take anyway.
More recently, I have taken Source Naturals Gaba Calm with 125 mg gaba and a few other things. Then I ran out and was ok for a few days, and then it all hit again. Waking up in the middle of the night, rls in one or the other legs, couldn't get back to sleep. Nothing else I took - 5 htp, taurine, tryptophan, or the progesterone cream I rub on where the rls act up - helped very much or for long. One night I woke up at 3:45 and that was it - no sleep the rest of the night.
Then I remembered I had a bottle of 500 mg gaba capsules that I had put away downstairs in a drawer, thinking that 500 mgs was too strong. I opened a capsule and took about 1/2 (it tastes just mildly sweet, nothing else,) and went back to bed. I could feel things easing, but not enough, so I took the other 1/2 of the capsule. Fell asleep soon, no rls, and did not wake up until my alarm went off. (I have a radio set to classical music for my alarm.) Anyway, I would say that gaba was the thing I needed. And I have been taking it since (which is only a week.)
Julia Ross's book, The Mood Cure, in which she uses amino acids for many conditions, has a whole chapter on sleep, and a few recommendations for RLS. She explains the science behind the aminos, and how to figure out what you, the reader, are missing and how to go about taking them. One of the things she says is that many aminos are manufactured by the body (in a perfect world,) but things - stress, illness, age, genetics, etc - can cause a person to not make them or to become depleted. And that by taking what is needed one can build up their stores again. She often recommends taking some in the afternoon and evening, then again before bed. Then, after awhile, cutting back so as not to over do it.
I seem to have experienced this several times. Took too much gaba, then cut back, then later not taking any and running into trouble again. So this time around as I am sleeping and relatively rls free (still feel a bit, but the progesterone cream takes it the rest of the way away,) then I will cut back somewhat and go back to smaller amounts (I have to get more of the Gaba Calm tabs.)
This is not to say that gaba would help everyone. There are people who do not respond at all to it, and others who need other things instead. I also think rls seems to change over one's lifetime. But for myself, I find that gaba helps me the best. I have taken taurine, which is supposed to be able to turn into gaba, but, for me, it does not help the way gaba does.
I hope this info make sense and that perhaps it helps you in your journey with rls. I have had rls, on and off, since I was a child. It often disappeared for several years at a time, then came back more steadily as I got older. It was easier to get rid of by taking things like just magnesium, or calcium, but all that changed and gaba is the thing that works now. I have never taken any drugs for it, so I have no experience or knowledge of those. But, since RLS and lack of sleep go hand in hand, the info I got from Ross's book has helped me quite a bit.
Another thing to check out is how to reduce glutamate already in the body. It seems the autism community has already been on to that. Plus some other sites for brain health since excess glutamate is involved in Alzheimers, Huntington's, OCD, etc. Anyway, the recommendations are things like Vit C, Coq10, Nac, vit b 6, berberine, pharmagaba, inositol, taurine, ginger, valarian. Check this kind of info out for reducing glutamate. I have tried a few of these and hands down Vitamin C works best for me. I have used EmergenC powder in a bit of water or a liquid vitamin c-about 1,000 mgs-if I feel that somehow (maybe something I ate) there's too much glutamate floating around in my system. NAC is pretty good but smelly! Sadly, taurine does not work for me. B vitamins yes. Theanine sort of. Tho I need that gaba also to finish it off. Anyway, there is info out there that is helpful with reducing glutamate. I find the EmergenC or liquid vit c helps in @ 15-20 minutes.
Hope this helps also. I think getting rid of glutamate by avoiding and also reducing it are important things to do.
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