Too much Glutamate?

[Twiggster]

I recently read an article I found online that said a new study by John's Hopkins believes that RLS may be caused by an inbalance of Glutamate and GABA, both neurotransmitters. Too much Glutamate is the problem. Has anyone else heard of this? I believe they plan to do more studies.

[Hidden]

If its the same one i know of , then it was said that glutamate actually kept us awake even tho our meds have stopped our RLS.   I will have to go and find the one i know of  Maybe yours was a more up todate

Is this the article you read...?

medicaldaily.com/restless-l...

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

That sounds like the bit I read I see its from 2013 too.

Intriguing, looking forward to trying out some of the Glutamate reducing techniques, see if they do anything.

I have always had a racing mind, and at night it goes into overdrive, maybe there is something in this.

[Twiggster in reply to Hidden]

Yes, I am hopeful.

[justcrazer in reply to Hidden]

i have a racing mine to ,i keep hoping they will come up with some drug that will stop the rls and the uncontrol moving of my arms

[Hidden]

Hi Twiggster, yes I have heard of that.  They have found that iron dysregulation, which results in down regulation of our dopamine receptors and possibly up-regulation of our adenosine receptors results in an excess of glutamate in the striatum.  They believe that the effectiveness of DAs and even the Gaba drugs might be due in some part to the lowering of that glutamate level.  So not only are our favorite RLS drugs dopamine agonists but they might also be glutamate antagonists.  Therefore, if that's true it might open up an avenue for new drugs (and supplements ;)) ...anti-glutamate drugs and anti-glutamate supplements.  Not to be a one trick pony, and this comes from the October 2015 IRLSSG Summit (not me), but that excess glutamate comes from the iron dysregulation in our brains.  So it would seem that the best way to counteract the excess glutamate is to get some iron to our brains.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

The study described during the 2015 Summit involved iron deficient ("ID")rats (made that way by withholding iron from their diet) and then compared their brains to control rats.  The ID rats had elevated levels of glutamate while the controls did not.  The ID rats also had down-regulated dopamine receptors and up-regulated adenosine receptors.  Once again the controls did not demonstrate any of this.  

[martino]

This was reported on by Richard Allen PhD on Hopkinsmedicine.org in May 2013. It seems to give some support for Gabapentin encarbil as a treatment. I am interested in this but with caution. I am on Gabapentin and have been up since 2.30 this morning hence my reading!

[Hidden in reply to martino]

Can't say I found the Gabapentin any good for anything other than a voracious appetite

So its not enough Dopamine here and too much Glutamate there. A good spin in a 60c wash with extended spin just to reset and start again!

Please for those of you who know, I'm out of my depth with the neurotransmitters, (I really for one, quite brief, naive period in time thought I knew about RLS - then I found here!!) so play nice.

IF too much glutamate is problematic, then to me it stands to reason glutamate reducing drugs could help so on Googling "glutamate reducing drugs" I learn:

Some of these drugs block a receptor group to glutamate called N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA)

(truthinlabeling.org/glutama...

N-Methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) is an amino acid derivative that acts as a specific agonist at the NMDA receptor mimicking the action of glutamate, the neurotransmitter which normally acts at that receptor.

(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-Met... - Don't hang me fro referencing wikipedia!!)

If that is the case am I right in thinking that NMDA agonists would dampen the effects of glutamate? AND IF SO could there then be merit in treating severe RLS with the likes of a NMDA agonist? From the wiki page there appear to be a whole slew of drugs under the different agonists.

[martino in reply to Hidden]

I agree that Gabapentin makes me a bit peckish. I am on 900mg plus a Neupro patch and may ditch the patch and increase the Gabapentin. The neuro says first try the patch then the Gabapentin then leva dopa which I am not going to do.  Failing all this then I think it may be methadone which I note is a NMDA antagonist. I very much hope a higher dose of Gabapentin works--it seems to be causing, as well as the munchies, insomnia-2 hours last night. I am taking 100mg of tramadol plus clonazepam when I go to bed. This RLS business is such fun isn't it?

[Hidden in reply to martino]

I am sure I read somewhere about someone using Ketamine for RLS! I thought a bit extreme, (but hey if it alleviates the RLS, it alleviates the RLS!), but makes more sense with the whole NMDA antagonist, can't see my GP prescribing it though

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

I would LOVE to have the guts to try ketamine.  Next life I want balls, big ones. 

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

If it stopped the legs I'd chance it. I'm not sure how available it is, I am sure you could bet it on the streets but then you can't be sure what you are getting, (MXE, MXP, PCP, ETC) although all are NMDA agonists.

Its crazy how 'severe' the drugs are that will treat this!

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

To be honest, the RLS is ok but my horizons need expanding.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Well the Ketamine would do that

[Sjmiji in reply to Hidden]

A friend's of mine daughter user of Ketamine (drug) is now waiting for extensive surgery on her bladder after months of intolerable pain. Little chance of the op working so at 25, the chances are she will be carrying her little bag for ever... 

[Hidden in reply to Sjmiji]

Yeah Ketamine is particularly harsh on the live and can also cause things like Olney's lesions:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olney...

The more nasty side-effects generally only come after periods of abuse/heavy use.

A lot of drugs can have very nasty effects so its always VITAL that any substance is well researched before ingestion of a psychotropic drug because not only can there be physical problems but a whole range of psychiatric ones can surface too!

I hope the ops a success and if not that she can come to terms with the change quickly.

Was she aware of the potential effects on her kidneys before consumption? I think one of the bigger problems of drugs is that because they are illegal knowledge can be flaky and built on myth as opposed to fact.

[Sjmiji]

I feel lucky as I don't have RLS permanently but for well over 10 years I have had it through periods of my life a few days, a few weeks or few months and then I am free of it for a while. I don't get the jerking either, simply this unimaginable uncomfortable annoying feeling around the bottom of my calves which is impossible to ignore. I get it in the evening while I watch TV or during the night... Rarely at other times. The best way I have learned to deal with it is to vigorously rub one calf and even pinched it really hard again and again. For some reasons it deflects the 'pain' and both legs are then ok.  I have now developed Neuropathy with pins and needles and the usual electric shocks but that is a different matter.

As I had to go to the doctors I happened to mention also RLS, and she has prescribed me Glepark. Given the potential side effects I have decided not to take it and to carry on with my usual methods.  I went to see a Kinesiologist who has suggested stopping eating certain foods.  Funnily enough I have not had RLS since but there is always time...

I am interested in the theory you are talking about and will look into it. 

[Hidden in reply to Sjmiji]

Well well, what foods did u stop?

[Sjmiji in reply to Hidden]

Generally for better health you need to reduce the acidity in your body and make it more alkaline so increase veg, nuts (cabbage and cabbage family especially) and reduce dairy, meat, sugar, wheat, junk, drinks etc...

As for the Kinesiologist findings, it depends on each individual so in my case she has advised me to stop eating potatoes, chillies ( interestingly enough they are from the same family), chicken, mackerel, trout, strawberries... And limit certain other foods.  I am giving it a shot and see what happens but different foods for everybody, so no good for anybody else to follow. I went for an array of problems, all linked I am sure - RLS, IBS ( or at least that what has been decided), severe cramps, pins and needles, burning sensations, dizziness, losing balance, pelvic and back pain, interstitial cystitis, facial neuralgia ( so painful that only epileptic drug will sort it, but in remission at the moment so lucky), insomnia, or falling asleep anywhere. But I can go through good periods, rarer as I am getting older.  It has  gone on for years and  I have learned to get on with it as there are no external signs so: so ' you look well' ... Yes thank you and you? 

I had cancer last year and do you know what?  At least I could talk about it. This, even my closest friends and family think it is and has been in my head so I shut up and when my finger blocks while I am holding something or an electric shock comes on and it makes me wince...... ' Nothing, don't worry'.   

I feel a freak, so yes that is what plays on my head... The lack of answers and the feeling you are wasting nhs time so I only visit the doctors when I feel well enough to try to explain and after 30 seconds I feel a freak so I shut up and she decides to give me something for IBS then something for RLS and then, depending on the last symptoms I mention.  But it is all the same problem and I don't want to have medicine dished out, I want a proper assessment and I can't get it. 

[Hidden in reply to Sjmiji]

Wow, you go through good periods with your IC?  I have good days, no good "periods."  I only have frequency with my interstitial cystitis, not pain.   I too have IBS.   I prefer to call it dysmotility.  Lower back pain too.  None of it is debilitating and I have been forced to find natural treatments for all, including heartburn, because if I take a prescription med for one condition it worsens another.

I hate to even say this, but because none of my conditions are debilitating (just freakin annoying), I am still able to enjoy my earthly journey. 

Tell me congratulations - I recently cured (?) my dry eyes.  My dry eyes were more like "wet eyes" but the eye doc said you have dry eye and prescribed drops.  With each drop the dry eyes got worse.  I went from wet eyes with very little pain (in morning) to constant 24/7 burning.  I was doing research on my husband's floaters (the guy is healthy as a horse he should be doing research for me) and I came across this new FDA approved light device called IPL for dry eyes.  You have to go to a doctor for a series of treatments - something I am generally loathe to do.  Anyways IPL has been used in the beauty industry for other purposes for many years.  I saw a comment to the article that indicated that red light therapy works just as well.  BINGO!  I own a red light wand called Baby Quasar.  My cousin gave it to me when it failed to get rid of her wrinkles.  I got that baby out of the closet and have been using it over each eye for three minutes every day for a month now.  The first time I used it I felt all this oily liquid come pouring out of my eyes.  Turns out a major cause of dry eyes is blocked meiboman glands.  The eye drops probably just blocked them further.  My eyes are back to where they were in my 30s   The article further indicated that they believe that the IPL works by not only unclogging the meiboman glands but because once they're blocked the microbiome in our eyes get out of control.  I have heard of gut microbiome and a few years ago skin microbiome, but eye microbiome.  Holy crap!!!

So, yes there is a link to most of this stuff.  You think it's PH, I think it's our zoo animals.  Good luck. 

 

[Annieapple]

Interesting .... do you have a link to this article.. It's wonderful to know about any research going on on our behalf.. the answer has to be neurological I am sure! 

[Sjmiji in reply to Annieapple]

Hopkinsmedecine.org.  About glutamate.

[Hidden]

Yes for sure.  Research points to neurological.  We have anemic brains yet amazingly not anemic bodies.  Lucky us,  iron iron everywhere but not a drop for our brains.