At the Hay Festival, Tim Spector gave a talk on supplements and says that 99% have no effect at all. He did say B12 for vegans and vit D were OK, but the rest should be got from our food. He said “manufacturers of supplements are going to be the new future junk food companies – their budgets are massive. They’re not these artisan little people in the back of a shed in Somerset making a super-organic supplement; they’re all made in massive factories in China and you have no control over what it is.”
Dr Tim Spector says we are “mugs” buying supplements - PMRGCAuk
Dr Tim Spector says we are “mugs” buying supplements
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piglette
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That's kinda scary.Most believe they are healthy.Sadly it's difficult at times to eat healthy enough.
I take Vitamin K2 specifically because I know I cannot get enough from my food. One needs to read labels. Hopefully I can trust something "formulated* and packaged in Canada" and derived from non-GMO natto. What choice do I have?
*I know that doesn't mean the ingredients were actually all produced in Canada.
Did he mention minerals, like calcium, magnesium, iron?
Did he note that older people have a double problem. First, we tend to eat less, and secondly we do not absorb our nutrients as effectively as we age.
from Natto.... I wonder if the Japanese have stronger bones?????
Yes, natto has been proven by Japanese research to reduce the incidence of OP in people who eat it, relative to those who don't.
I tried it. toss up between whether I would eat it or have OP. hahahahaha
Haven't tried it myself. How did you find it?
In Japan!! and here in Sweden I have tried surströmming.... equally enjoyable!! hahaha
I meant, did you like it?
You are well-travelled!
I did NOT!! never again.
When I heard it described as simultaneously slimy and crunchy I decided not to seek it out. If it ever appears somewhere where I'm shopping anyway I might give it a try, just so I know. A friend of mine has a son who now lives in Japan, having married a Japanese woman. She doesn't like natto, but he does. 
your friend isnt named VAL is she??
No. Why? Do you know a Nova Scotian called Val?
Well done with the surstromming!I brought some back to UK - quickest way to end a party!
hahaha. indeed!
Hmm, simplistic and makes the assumption that people can afford diet he is talking about. There is no talk either of the lower amounts of some minerals in soils these days and the way some veg is farmed. The meat issue is not as polarised either.
PMRproAmbassador
About right - and given the problems with ranitidine ...
He is an epidemiologist, isn't he? Not a nutritionist - and I find a lot of Zoe's recommendations 'bland' - or not wanting to offend or put anyone off. I follow Sarah Myhill, who was an experienced GP before she de-registered and became a full-time naturopathic doctor. I would be guided by her recommendations re diet and supplements rather than his, myself. Each to their own - he has had to be responsible to funders himself for much of the work he has done.
An epidemiologist is exactly the person to follow. They assess the clinical evidence in a scientific/statistical way. Everyone else is just peddling opinion. Unfortunately there is very little rigorous scientific research on nutrition. Zoe give a balanced assessment of what is known. Some of it may seem bland but that is because it all that you can do if you don't have the evidence.
Just wondering but isn’t this ZOE nutrition programme just a revamped healthier Mediterranean diet (promoted by most health professionals) advocating low carbs, high fibre and more fresh fruit and veg?🥹😜
Very fashionable, heavily marketed BUT hugely expensive for what it actually is??
Not quite as I understand it, because the expensive bit is the continuous blood sugar monitor, the muffins and the analysis of the responses to those muffins. The Mediterranean diet always makes me laugh - not familiar with other countries but in southern Italy there is a massive amount of carbs in the form of pasta and bread which are integral parts of their diet!
Hence I said low carbs with huge emphasis on fibre, fruit and veg.
Of course muffins being high in CHO are bound to give a high blood glucose spike for most!
The blood sugar monitor supplied by ZOE is actually the newish LIBRE2 plastic disc which many type1 diabetics wear on the upper arm.
It continuously samples not blood glucose but interstitial fluid glucose read by a reader/smartphone app.
Readings are then stored and trends, graphs etc are provided for further analysis personally and to HQ.
Hence no need for painful fingerprick blood glucose tests.
Hi piglette,
I've listened to quite a lot of different 'talks'/lectures/podcasts' etc over the past few years examining just how effective supplements really are for us, and also discussed this issue with a dietician, nutritionist and ex pharmacist.
In line with your post, the general consensus of opinion has consistently been that most supplements do not have any significant benefits and are not worth the money we spend on them.
There are a few exceptions such as Vit. D3 & Vit.K2, but it was generally agreed that despite soil quality being diminished in many places, it's still more beneficial to ingest the necessary nutrients we require through sensible food choices as our body will always absorb more nutrients in this way.
There is allegedly very strong evidence that suggests we absorb only a small percentage of any active ingredient in the majority of supplements but I haven't personally seen this evidence. It does make sense though.
The other important consideration is that there will obviously be people with certain medical conditions and health issues who will definitely require specific supplements because of maybe an inability to metabolise a certain mineral or vitamin or to protect themselves from further ill health.
For example:-
- Folic acid for pregnant women
- Calcium for those of us on steroids
- Iron for people with anaemia,
- Vit.B12 for pernicious anaemia, etc
I have always preferred to obtain as many nutrients as possible from my diet and tried hard not to unnecessarily line the pockets of the 'supplements' industry.
I personally don't need to take calcium supplements as my diet is currently providing adequate levels. I do take Vit.D3 and Vit.K2 though.
We will all make our own choices with regard to which supplements we feel we need, but as with everything in life....do your research and don't believe everything you read that promises miracles. If it sounds too good to be true it usually is!!
Advertising can be both very persuasive and very convincing!
Yes, I look at my daily stash of pills, and there is only one prescription medication in the lot. Prednisone. The others are glucosamine and Vitamin B for OA (yes, they seem to help, at least the OA gets worse when I don't take one of them), Calcium, Magnesium, Vitamin D, Vitamin K2. Every once in a while I take liquid iron supplement because I tend to run low ferritin. I think that's quite reasonable?
Hi Heron,If they seem to be helping you then no one can argue with that.
I considered magnesium initially but now I have two of my daily soaks in the bath with Epsom Salts added instead. I put a lot more in the bath water than recommended and always soak for at least 20 to 30mins. I find that really seems to help me.
I used to have an occasional Epsom salts soak, but the bathtub in my current home is not comfortable, plus with aging my skin can't take long soaks any more. (Don't think I could consider a total of 40 minutes in a tub every day ) I do still have them, but not very often. I suppose I could follow my own suggestion and soak my feet only ....
I read the transcript of another Zoe report that said it may well be beneficial for vegetarians to take 1000mg of Omega 3 per day, precisely because we do not get it in our food.
I’m not surprised. Omega 3 is especially important for pregnant women too. Children of the nighties research showed better eyesight and cognitive abilities in those children whose mothers had a diet with adequate omega 3. Not all fish is equal and definitely good to take supplements if vegan or vegetarian. And plant based omega 3 doesn’t do the job as it has very poor conversion rates.
Depends how conscientious you are as a veggie.
"Omega-3 fatty acids are readily available in a wide variety of plant foods. Sources include walnuts, flaxseeds, chia seeds, hemp seeds, edamame, seaweed, and algae. Other green leafy vegetables and beans also contain small amounts."
My rheumy wanted me to take omega-3 - I declined, the atrial fibrillation was bad enough as it was and it can make it worse.
Mmmm! I take a few supplements and will continue to do so. I am a vegan of a few decades and a vegetable-arian for about 50 years. Over the past few months I've been drinking a bottle of Huel everyday and have lost a lot of weight. Also my PMR aches and pains have all but disappeared.
I'm on 10mg of Pred a day and this seems to be my happy place.
David xoxoxox
HeronNS• in reply to
Do you know, you can't get Huel in Canada, not approved by Health Canada. It may have something to do with the amount of Vitamin D it contains, although not sure. Couldn't find list of ingredients with measurements.
because the expert is talking about humans not horses. As others say here we are convinced and persuaded by questionable marketing and advertising both of which should be more tightly regulated . It’s possibly human nature to want to believe supplements work, I know I wished they worked. it’s only a few decades ago we thought a sun tan looked good afterall but now we know.
If we believe they work for us it’s likely we may believe the same about our animals, that’s the power of advertising. Supplement companies spend millions marketing the valuable properties to pharmacists and pharmacy assistants to make sure when we ask about what’s best the pharmacists have also had a belief instilled. I know this because I worked at the Royal Pharmaceutical Society GB and later at the Royal Society of Chemistry. I have no scientific qualifications and I sold advertising and marketing to these companies.
Having said all that, some people have a faith in higher powers and that helps and sustains them. The human brain is wonderful thing.
Edit: I would add that I’m a life long veggie and when told I was osteoporotic aged 35 following steroid dose aged 17-22 I did simple weight training that strengthened my bones.
His book ‘Spoon Fed’, made the Times best seller list is an excellent read, an eye opener!
I loved Spoon Fed.
I would love to not take supplements. I do for anaemia and for being on a mostly vegan diet. However governments recognise there are mineral and vitamin deficiencies within their populations and usually take action adding calcium to flour for instance or iodine to salt. It is recognised that many are vitamin d deficient. Our food has become more and more fortified because of over processing and poorer soils and over production of farm land. So we are all taking supplements in one way or another.
I used to show my students the iron added to breakfast cereals. Crunch up your fortified cereal and then pass a magnet over it
Sarah Myhill recommends a PK diet and some supplements. She has made a mineral supplement as she feels the soils are so depleted of nutrients that people need one. Having worked in farming in the past I am aware of how much artificial fertilisers/pesticides etc. are spread on the land every year. It's not like the days of mixed farming where the animals would rotate with the crops and you'd leave so much fallow for the soil to recover, thus little need for fertilisers. So, yes, do take supplements - Tim Spector or no Tim Spector. I feel Sarah Myhill is more knowledgeable.
I notice that Sarah Myhill posted videos and articles advocating taking vitamins and other substances in high doses, without evidence they worked. The Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service found her recommendations "undermined public health". She was also selling the substances she recommended on her website. The tribunal found some of her recommendations had the potential to cause "serious harm" and "potentially fatal toxicity".
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-644...
I only ever hear cash registers when I hear her name!!
She has solved the cash register problem and now uses credit cards!! She has been at it for at least ten years probably longer. I am embarrassed to be Welsh.
She lives up the road from where I grew up - my aunts lived in the village there.
Really. Did your aunts know her? She really should not be allowed out. She has managed to con people into thinking she is the best thing since sliced bread. I am amazed she is still getting away with it. She just does not care. I assume she just wants the money rather than believing in what she preaches. She is on a nice little earner.
Joining one of her online workshops only cost me £40 - if I had not done that I would not have found out that I was pre-diabetic as my GP ignored the numbers. She is often taken to court by the BMA and others, initially because she did not prescribe as many drugs as other GPs - rather she looked for the cause rather than treating the symptoms. However, each to their own. She has not cost me much and I have admiration for her.
I think you mean the GMC (General Medical Council) which is a public body that maintains the official register of medical practitioners within the United Kingdom. The BMA is a trade union like Unison, RMT etc. Ms Myhill has deregistered from the GMC so she can no longer practise as a doctor, although she can re -register. She now calls herself a Naturopathic Physician. It is appalling she can get away with it, just because there is virtually no regulation on supplements, as there are for drugs produced by the pharmaceutical industry. The sooner we get some regulation in this area the better, as people are being conned out of their hard earned cash.
Two very obvious points spring to mind:
> Firstly, the terms 'top' and 'scientist' are easily concatenated, whether or not the former is justified by the latter - and in all circumstances. For example, 'top scientist' Freeman John Dyson FRS:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freem...
is regarded as a luminary in the field of quantum physics, but seems to have suffered considerable 'brain fog' (i.e. he was essentially wrong) with regards to his views on anthropogenic climate change.
> Secondly, Tim Spector is assuming that the food you get is as wholesome as one imagines. For example, intensive agriculture has led to zinc deficiency in wheat that (when grown in better soil) should be a good source of the element:
frontiersin.org/articles/10...
Personally, with the risks of calcium depletion in my bones due to taking corticosteroids, and a recent adverse result from a DEXA scan, I will continue taking my vitamin D3, K2 and calcium supplements (oh, yes, and the dreaded alendronic acid), with the sincere hope of keeping my bones strong enough to continue growing what I can (organically) on my allotments!
Finally, I expect Spector was paid to appear at Hay, and receives an income from his book (Food For Life: The New Science Of Eating Well), so he is also making his statements for financial gain.
Important to note that this is just the Daily Mail's take on his talk rather than a full transcript. Molly555 was actually there and has commented below on what the talk was mainly about. Tabloids like a good headline to draw people in as we all know.
Also if you read any of his stuff you’ll know that he’s well aware that not all food is 'as wholesome as one imagines'. He’s been doing a lot on ultra processed foods recently with Chris van Tulleken so I think we can assume he’s actually very well aware.
Hay is a literary festival so he, like most if not all the speakers, is an author.
PLR1957, are you a member of the FB group Op support and natural solutions- loads of us on there have found our Dexas to be wildly inaccurate and have gone to Osteoscan (REMS) and as a result have come off or not taken the bone drugs because the REMS has shown that it’s possible to have strong bones with a low fracture risk, even if they are not that dense, as in my case. The REMS is ultrasound so no room for human erro unlike with the Dexa. Calcium supplements they also don’t recommend as the calcium furs up the arteries. The doctors sometimes do t mention this or the fact that none drugs make not much difference and can have terrible side effects.
Not entirely sure about their effectiveness but a close friend of mine has a pharmaceutical company in the Midlands (UK) and he makes supplements and supplies all over UK and the world
”…they’re all made in massive factories in China and you have no control over what it is.”…??
=====
Really?
The ones made by HOLLAND & Barret sold in U.K. are actually made in Germany under stringent EU control. Who’s paying Dr Spector??🧐🥹
Not siding with TS - I've seen a few statments from him that are stretching the reality a bit too - but 80% of the world's vit C is made in China - and most large companies in the world source the raw ingredients from there. The product they are SELLING maybe were "made" in the UK or the EU or the USA but that doesn't mean the ingredients were. That's what happened with ranitidine - a raw ingredient sourced from China or India was contaminated so all producers, whatever the country, were affected,
Are you sure they are the same molecules?
Fish make cod liver oil from smaller building block molecules found in plants.👆
It depends on the algae used. Luckily for me…..
“Certain species of microalgae are especially rich in two of the main types of omega-3 fatty acids — eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). As such, these species are grown for their oil. One study found that the percentage of omega-3s in microalgae is comparable to that of various fish”
Unfortunately we're not all in a financial position to buy the food that contains the supplements (I for one), therefore, I buy supplements that last at least a month and only those I absolutely need, i.e. D3, K2 (MK7), C, B12, Tums with 1000 calcium (generic brand) and that is it. These are not the "expensive" variety. That being said, I eat as "healthy" as possible and this is probably the healthiest I've eaten in my life.
I was at that talk, so was very interested, he was tho talking about HEALTHY people and saying we should be getting all we need from food IF you have a varied and good diet so I think even Tim himself would qualify what he said. The main subject of his talk ( he was with Chris van tulekan) was how much processed food is dangerous and peddled to us by multi national companies
Hi Ritter here do try and eat organic whenever you can and eat lots of kale this is full of all the good things we need. Good luck every one.
Agree about kale, I prefer the Cavalo Nero.
Yes very good choice
They’re not these artisan little people in the back of a shed in Somerset making a super-organic supplement; they’re all made in massive factories in China and you have no control over what it is.”
Is he talking about actual fraud? What you're actually buying from China may be powdered panda droppings? There are certainly products on Amazon I shouldn't touch with a bargepole. PS does he have no problem with the fruits of the labours of 'artisan little people'.
Just do wish he and others would live in the real world and look at what people actually eat. A visit to the supermarket would be in order, a leisured stroll to discover the 98% of the produce that isn't fresh food. Meanwhile growing malnutrition has been talked of as a result of the cost of living crisis. in my view rather than rubbishing supplements doctors should be advocating issuing them, especially to children.
Then he could consider lack of money, lack of appetite or both. Does he truly believe everyone sits down to three hearty meals a day, all of course of the finest fresh ingredients?
I think i'm pretty much happy to believe that if I ate the quantities I ate 20 years ago I'd be OK. I eat about a third of that.
Just do wish he and others would live in the real world and look at what people actually eat.
He is one of the leaders of the Zoe nutrition programme which is 'the world’s largest in-depth nutritional research program, in collaboration with scientists from Harvard University, Mass General Hospital, Stanford University and Kings College London'.
He literally spends his time looking at what people actually eat…
He is a rheumatologist and genetic epidemiologist, both of which are excellent things to be, but neither of which represents a particular knowledge of nutrition.
Spector was born in North London[1] in July 1958.[2] He trained in medicine and rose to the position of consultant rheumatologist, before turning to genetic epidemiology, the study of genetic factors in health and disease, in 1992.[1]
He is known also for a study of identical twins and a study of Covid symptoms. He's the stats guy.
I know all that. I was answering your point that he needed to look at what people eat.
My initial point in an earlier reply was to suggest that there wasn’t much point in judging things on the basis of an article in a tabloid newspaper on a comment TS made in his talk which for all any of us know (except the member who was actually there) could have just been a throwaway line or in response to a question from the audience. I don’t imagine it was the main topic of his talk.
People will carry on taking supplements or not (I do) but I'm sure most will make their own informed decision and not base it on on something written in the Daily Mail.
as I said at the start of my post he’s talking about humans and if supplements work for your horses that great
Wow, I'm sorry I contributed to this thread.
But I will continue to take my llimited range of supplements nevertheless. Insurance for my poor old disintegrating body! I don't think I eat a large enough quantity of food to obtain all the micronutrients I need.
I take a lot of Supplements which I have found to be quite helpful. I take Vit D3, and a multi vitamin for my general health, also I take Powdered collagen and Hyaluronic acid, for skin and Lutein for my eyes, Astaxanthin and Krill oil for my OA, Biotin for nails and Fish oil for my arteries. I haven’t had any problems and they seem to work so I’m sticking to them. I’m 73 in September, look like I’m 50 and I have more energy than I did in my 40’s.
I read that as well on my news feed but still bought magnesium.It probably is true but these days with healthy food so costly it's expensive.
I swear by this stuff. Fixes everything and my doc says you can take as much as you like.
jpeg of a box
Apparently it still causes side effects though ...
❤️✅❤️🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣…🥹
“Inert……” chalk pills or liquid?
Oops!
Chalk doesn’t dissolve in H2O. 🤣🤣
Question: what's the reputation of the Daily Mail? Reliable or just som rag? E.G., if this were published in the N.Y. Post, I would completely ignore it.
Whoops. Answered my own question. Googled it and found this:
The Daily Mail is a British tabloid newspaper that has been published in London since 1896. It is the second-largest newspaper in the United Kingdom by circulation, after The Sun. The Daily Mail has a reputation for being sensationalist and right-wing, and has been criticized for its coverage of a variety of issues, including science, medicine, and politics.
In a 2017 survey of British journalists, the Daily Mail was ranked as the least trusted newspaper in the country. The survey also found that the Daily Mail was seen as being the most biased and the least accurate.
Despite its negative reputation, the Daily Mail remains a popular newspaper in London. It is read by millions of people every day, and its website is one of the most visited news websites in the world.
Don't think I would put much faith in anything published in there, thank you very much.
Always, always check the veracity of your source.
Despite the comments above, the DM has printed features about GCA and PMR in the past…..and have to say the article written about me in 2015 was accurate - but some might say sensationalist, as it discussed my sight loss.
The paper approached the charity and asked if they knew anyone who would be prepared to discuss their GCA story - and I was - to highlight the charity’s work, and the lack of understanding of the illness by many doctors.
I will point out that I was not then, nor now, a regular reader of the Daily Mail.
It gets a heavily sarcastic mention here now and again - "that well known medical journal, the DM"
But as DL says, now and again it DOES have a good article. probably by accident as they didn't really understand it, and occasionally even I take a deep breath, hold my nose and click on a link to it. As many doctors know, it pays to know what their customers have been reading ...
Just like a broken clock is right twice a day.
”It is read by millions of people every day, and its website is one of the most visited news websites in the world...”
=====
Yes!👆🧏♂️🤣🤣
Full of silly, useless “celeb” gossip and what bra or dress so and so is wearing OR not wearing! But funny!🙃😜🤣
Thanks for posting.👍
Perhaps we’re all addicted?🥹😜🤣
Could be right, but having taking a few supplements for years I'm loathe to stop just in case they are doing me some good!
”At the Hay Festival, Tim Spector gave a talk on supplements and says that 99% have no effect at all. He did say B12 for vegans and vit D were OK, but the rest should be got from our food. …”
======
Does he not realise that many:
* Due to all sorts of reasons don’t follow a healthy, balanced diet ALL of the time so VITAL vitamin and mineral supplements are taken to compensate for this?
*Not only B12, vit D, calcium (and other minerals) but also vitamin C etc
It seems he’s pushing this special, highly expensive “personalised” ZOE product which I feel is unnecessary and expensive for what it actually is.
Top ranked, qualified nutritionists are mostly saying we should all follow largely a vegetarian, low carbohydrate diet rich in pulses, beans, nuts, fruit, vegetables with some meat (if we so desire) preferably oily fish high in EPA.
ZOE does not personally tell me anything new but seems to appeal to the rich, chattering middle classes?🤣🤣🧐🧏 who perhaps join his programme for the celeb status?!😰🥹
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