just had results of a liver function test through Medichecks. Most are okay, but the GGT result was high. Any thoughts. I was diagnosed with fatty liver disease a few years ago, but never really had any problems. Do B12 or any of the cofactors affect this test?
Another anomaly - liver : just had... - Pernicious Anaemi...
Another anomaly - liver
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Chickens44
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My fatty liver resolved with my use of B6 which is know to happen but not by many.
Hello can I ask how much b6 to take as I have fatty liver they was going to. Do a biopsy now they decided they weren’t gonna do one , but I thought I would like to try to see if it helped thankyou
I take 50 mg of 5-P-5 five to six times per day. This is based on my evaluation of the information available and that I have all but gone from debilitating polyneuropathy to no pain. I experienced polyneuropathy at age 3.5 and am 69 years of age.
This amount is 100 mg more than most people tolerate well according to NIH. (Goggle NIH B6) This is in conflict with many who give advice on this forum.
"The FNB noted that although several reports show sensory neuropathy occurring at doses lower than 500 mg/day, studies in patients treated with vitamin B6 (average dose of 200 mg/day) for up to 5 years found no evidence of this effect."
I found the work of Helvella below to be helpful in my self-treating to heal as much as I can.
helvella.blogspot.com/p/hel...
I weight 170 pounds. 12.143 stone. 77.111 kg
My evaluation is for 5-P-5 only. My evaluation is it is not worth any possible risk that may exist with other forms.
The normalization of my liver was incidental to my self-treating of my peripheral neuropathy.
I do not advise or instruct I share and appreciate those on the forum that share. The advice and instruction of how to self treat, not at all.
Thankyou for that I’ve had a read of helvella,s report but I can’t take it all in , I have something wrong with my liver also so much pain in my joints I know it could well be arthritis but do you think I could try 5 p 5 to see if it helps, because I keep thinking by next year I’m not gonna be able to walk , that’s my fear ,thank you x
I do not give advice. In part due to the 'bad' advice on this forum. In part as what I would advise changes as I do my work. I am improving my suplimentation with experience and knowledge gained.
That being said 5-P-5 eliminated my Peripheral Neuropathy for the most part. It was linier for me unlike other supplements. There was no downturn or the agony of reversing out caused between doses I find due to under supplementation.
100 mg worked quickly and each increase worked better. I stopped at 50mg 5-6 times a day when symptoms were resolved.
I did on advice on this forum three times stop the B6 and each time my Peripheral Neuropathy returned. Good news is it resolved fairly quickly.
Thanks for getting back to me , I have ordered some now , I think you’ll try anything to improve yourself if you can thankyou glad you had some benefit x
I could not use the methodology of trying anything as there are too many things I know to try. Vitamin B6 deficiency is a diagnosis. It seldom happens without other deficiencies. It is characterized by peripheral neuropathy + severe mouth sores. I did not have severe mouth sores but I had minor ones which are now gone. My review of professionals that did diagnose B6 by symptoms often commented. It's rarely diagnosed. There is no test to determine B6 deficiency that can eliminate the possibility. I did trials and determined that I was B6 deficient.
Oh I see anyway thankyou
You are most welcome. I hope you are a successful with your work with B6.
Thanks
Interesting. I had fatty liver non alcoholic and my gastro dr couldn't figure it out, yet the blood tests he ran clearly had shown what was going on. I was hypothyroid and severely low on vitamins B and D. I started doing a specific type of organic coffee enema every other day while taking the vitamins I was very low on. It took about 2 years, but my fatty liver resolved.
My doctors just assumed the liver thing was alcohol related even though I never drank heavily.
So did mine. I argued until I was red in the face that I don't drink, but I was ignored. I filed a lawsuit in 2020 for medical malpractice after learning that my labs were ignored and I was left with health issues that could've been prevented had the gastro dr looked at my lab work that was lit up like a christmas tree in 2015. A new dr was able to get my lab work in 2020 and he freaked out. I was wrongfully placed on statins and other drugs that lead to more health issues.
I was talking to a B12 distributor in Canada. One of my methods of study. He said that in Canada medical errors were the 5th leading cause of death. I laughed and said that is silly but I will check into it. John Hopkins did a study in the USA and found that medical errors were the third leading cause of death. That is not preventable death just death.
Not to worry those making the errors have labeled the study as well as a confirming study as controversial.
Let the buyer beware. Which I am both, a buyer and beware.
Or could a glass of red wine or two the night before have affected the result?
yes
"Don’t consume any alcohol for at least 24 hours before the test. Even small amounts of alcohol can increase your GGT levels."
my.clevelandclinic.org/heal...
Oops!
I'm amazed you can touch alcohol only months into treatment, I didn't venture that for quite some time. I didn't want to ask the body to handle extra toxins when it was really busy trying to fix so much other damage.
Alcohol would be the first thing I would knock on the head once feeling at all unwell, but whatever works for you I guess.
Hi Chicken, I always think it helps to understand why. Thinking alcohol. Alcohol is converted back to sugar in the body. And quickly. So hits the blood stream like any other refined carbs as i understand it. So products made from refined flour (bread pizza pasta pastry) rice (look on the glycemic index) rice is 95 if i remember correctly. it's not sensible to eat any food over 50points especially if have a fatty liver diagnosis
So all these high sugar foods raise your blood sugar. Insulin is released to get the sugar out of your blood stream or you will die. Insulin takes sugar to the liver. The liver can only hold a little sugar and so converts the sugar to fat and stores the fat around your waist and organs. The liver gets overloaded with dealing with so much sugar and hence diagnosis of fatty liver. Fatty Liver is caused by eating too many carbs not fat. Wine is a carb, ferments sugar into alcohol. Then is converted back to sugar. A slice of toast equals 12 teasp sugar. Maybe you know all this and if so I appologise, but alcohol has the same effect.
No apologies necessary, always interested in new information. I have always had large ‘mid section’ and drank wine. I don’t have so much refined carbs in the way of cakes, biscuits etc. and I do make my own bread these days. And am trying to cut down how much of that I eat. I have definitely cut down on pasta too, although saying that, I’m actually having pasta tonight!
I have a note on my medical records that I am pre diabetic, and have been for a long time. So hopefully by cutting down on these carbs, it may reduce my risk of full blown diabetes.
Hi , and fatty liver. However if have a diagnosis of pre diabetes and fatty liver I think it would be best to have no refined carbs. You make your own bread so obviously are very capable. I make my own bread with almond flour (so nuts) and not a high sugar grain like wheat, corn etc. Almond flour is 1 on the glycemic index 
I make with bicarb to rise so basically a soda bread , no yeast, no needing, takes 5 mins to make, 50 mins in the oven
Functional doctors do state, fatty liver also means fatty pancreas and so more problems down the line.
Google Dr Mark Hyman, lots of advice. Author of Eat Fat get thin. Grains and any food made from grains are what are not conducive to health. Which means no cereals or toast for breakfast. I have free range duck or hens eggs for breakfast. Or bacon and eggs. Grass fed meat (available in supermarkets , printed on the packets) No bottled oils eg sunflower oil, so called veg oil and veg margarines as inflammatory, preventing healing. I have lots of butter, coconut oil and natural fat such as dripping. Fat is filling, less likely to snack because of sugar spikes from carbs and the slump following the spikes
Go down the rabbit hole and listen to the presentations online from eminent British GP's doctors , scientists ,health proffesionals who years ago formed
The Public Health Collaboration. (website) All past conference speaker presentations online/you tube
Formed by Liverpool GP Dr David Unwin who was fed up of his diabetic patients only getting worse and requiring more and more prescription meds. So he dived into the research, and healed them all through scrapping dietry guidelines
I am actually doing some of that already. I use olive oil, butter and coconut oil. I quite often have bacon and egg, with avocado or hummus. I get most of my meat from a local farm shop. I hardly eat anything out of a packet these days, the occasional M&S ready meal. I don’t eat cereals. I used to keep chickens and loved the fresh eggs, lost my last girl a year ago, she was 12! But sadly had stopped laying a few years before. I have trouble finding local fresh eggs, but do buy free range. And I do eat a lot of fish and seafood too.
So hoping I am already on my way to a healthier liver!
It's difficult to respond to every point made by LynneG as there is a very high quantity of nonsense so I apologise if I skipped over some points.
"Alcohol is converted back to sugar in the body. "
No, Alcohol is converted to Acetaldehyde, then to Acetate and then to Acetyl CoA. Take a look at this quick blog on alcohol metabolism and glucose from a registered dietitian:
type1traveler.com/2016/02/0...
Extract from the blog:
"Although many popular alcoholic beverages contain carbohydrates and may raise blood sugars, alcohol itself is not a carbohydrate. While alcohol is produced from carbohydrates, yeast convert sugar into ethyl alcohol (ethanol) and CO2 through a process called fermentation. Neither of these fermentation products are carbohydrates and therefore neither is metabolized by the body as a carbohydrate.
Alcohol is a completely different nutrient, although use of the word nutrient is controversial. Alcohol provides energy (7 kilocalories/gram); however, it performs no essential functions in the body. Basically we can get energy from it, but we don’t need it to function as we need fat, carbohydrates, and protein."
With regard to glycemic index:
"the [glycemic] index of an individual food is not necessarily reflective of the quantity in which that food would be consumed, because it's always against a reference 100 grams to glucose. And it's not a reflection of the metabolism of a different quantity of that food or a lower quantity of that food in the context of a mixed meal particularly, that can be modified by the amount of protein in that meal and the fat composition and amount of fat in that meal. So that limitation of GI is well established, which brings the focus onto glycemic load, which considers more the kind of dose and actual amount that will be consumed of any carbohydrate meal."
^ excerpt from Alan Flanagan from Sigma Nutrition in the transcript of an episode on Insulin Resistance
sigmanutrition.com/wp-conte...
See "Why Glycemic Load matters more than Glycemic Index"
m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOPHv...
In general it is better to focus on overall diet quality rather than the GI/GL of every food you consume. Increasing overall diet quality and keeping overall calories consumed under control will have a much higher impact than a poor quality diet which focuses unnecessarily on GI/GL numbers. Limiting refined carbohydrates is certainly a good idea and is part of all dietary guidelines. Healthy, unrefined carbohydrates, such as whole grains, legumes, fruit and vegetables can be part of a healthy dietary pattern and do not have any negative effects on health.
Insulin does not transport sugar to the liver as you have claimed. Insulin is a hormone, not a transporter. It has many effects but the most significant short-term effect is the binding of insulin to insulin receptors on cells. This causes a specific transport protein for glucose called GLUT4 to move from inside the cell to the cell's surface, where it can remove glucose from the blood - lowering blood glucose.
It is not correct to state that "Fatty Liver is caused by eating too many carbs not fat". In fact, in overfeeding studies, saturated fat results in greater hepatic (liver) fat storage than overfeeding of carbohydrates. See this research:
Saturated Fat Is More Metabolically Harmful for the Human Liver Than Unsaturated Fat or Simple Sugars
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articl...
It doesn't make any sense from a nutrition perspective to say that "A slice of toast equals 12 teasp sugar.". Granulated sugar and a slice of (lets say) wholegrain toast are NOT the same nutritionally speaking. You can't abstract the sugar content of a food and imply that the food is literally equivalent, metabolically or nutritionally speaking, to the same amount of granulated sugar.
With regard to your statement : "Grains and any food made from grains are what are not conducive to health." - this is total nonsense - diets rich in wholegrains have beneficial health outcomes in virtually every nutrition study every conducted, it is farcical to suggest that they are "not conducive to health".
The UK "Public Health Collaboration" you refer to is a cholesterol denialist organisation which features many of the "usual suspects" in this space.
Vegetables oils are not "inflammatory", this nonsense has been pushed for years with absolutely no human outcome evidence to support it. See:
alineanutrition.com/2020/09...
Extract:
"The putative mechanism with regard to inflammation is that the omega-6 linoleic acid [LA] acts as a precursor to arachidonic acid [AA]; AA acts a substrate to form eicosanoids, and the eicosanoids AA is used to form may be pro-inflammatory. Ergo, as the logic goes, increasing PUFA – particularly LA – increases inflammation.
Except there is no evidence that either increasing or decreasing LA levels alters levels of AA in humans. A review of 36 human intervention studies highlighted that neither increasing LA levels by up to 551%, or decreasing LA levels by 90%, altered concentrations of AA in plasma, serum, or red blood cells [erythrocytes], despite increasing LA intake resulting in increased membrane phospholipid LA content. Putative mechanism does not = biological effect"
You've "gone down the rabbit hole" indeed, LynneG, I suggest that you come up for air!
Well, that's told me Technoid - thank you. It's interesting to see and acknowledge a different point of view to one's own.
However, I may not have used the correct scientific/medical terminology but I stand by the pemise that consuming alcohol is not health conducing especially if have a diagnosis of fatty liver and pre diabetes. Which is the point.
Neither is consuming chemically refined 'vegetable' oils with the commercial choice of naming being ostensibly to conjure up a healthy choice and which flooded the market in the 1970's . No matter what cherry picked studies state, we all know how fraudulent studies can be, dependant on the funders required outcome. ALA derived from saturated fat is the healthy choice for the body not LA , and not unstable, free radical forming polyunsaturated oils . For which the original market was purely industrial machinery. Shall we here mention the fraudulent 7 countries study conducted by Ancel Keys which has led to the ridiculous Cholesterol hypothesis and promoted low fat diets making today the majority of populations obese and unhealthy once adopted. Omega 3 and 6 should be in balance with respected professionals stating a balance of 1:1 being ideal. Unfortunately 'vegetable' oils and over consumption of grains has led to a ratio of 1:20 in many
Personally speaking and that's all I was doing, I find looking at the Glycemic Index if, as in this instance I was wishing to make bread from a flour which I do, I chose almond flour having a rating of 1 on the index therefore hoping to not create a sugar spike. I could have chosen Gram flour being almost as low. The index gives people an informed choice and is useful for those interested in making choices which is why I mentioned.
It is obvious that an overall quality, healthy diet should be the focus unless someone has a particular health issue such as autoimmune, diabetes, PA , disregulated microbiome etc and may therefore need to focus on including and omitting certain foods by going down that rabbit hole. Government advice - the food plate / the food pyramid founded on fraudulent information 40 yrs ago and which is still going strong because of vested, reputational and financial interest cannot be relied upon
And finally the Public Health Collaboration should be held in high esteem . A collective of British health professionals and globally renowned scientists who are trying to make changes within the health care of British people from prescription pushers and corporate Government lobbyists
It seems technoid that you still believe in the Cholesterol hypothesis despite all the evidence, the retraction of by Ancel Keyes himself in his later years and even the FDA announcing , was it 2years ago, that cholesterol was not a major issue. But good to see your links that I will evaluate
"Well, that's told me Technoid - thank you."
You're welcome.
Its not a terminology confusion though. You made the false claim that alcohol is "converted back to sugar". You went on to describe supposed metabolic problems from intake of refined carbohydrates and the supposed importance of the gylcemic index. But your whole chain of logic here depends on the idea that alcohol is a carbohydrate and is metabolized like carbohydrates. But alcohol is not a carbohydrate is not metabolized like one.
You ignored the fact that I pointed out that saturated fat, when consumed in excess, is more damaging to the liver than unsaturated fat or simple sugars. Sugar is not the demon you want it to be in order to fit your worldview.
Alcohol has many negative effects on health, especially when consumed in excess and there is emerging evidence that even moderate amounts of regular alcohol are not entirely without risk of harm. But none of those risks have anything to do with carbohydrates or blood sugar.
You just want to tie it back to carbohydrates and insulin because you're seeing everything through the myopic lens of insulin resistance. You're just shoehorning things you don't understand into a cause which is the familiar obsession of the low carb community.
You can learn more about the impact of sugar in the absence of a caloria surplus in this episode from Sigma Nutrition: sigmanutrition.com/episode468/
You then move the goalposts backwards to claim that your "real point" is that "consuming alcohol is not health conducing especially if have a diagnosis of fatty liver and pre diabetes."
Let me remind you again, your argument was that alcohol is "converted to sugar" (its not) and that this is the reason why alcohol intake should be of concern to someone with fatty liver disease (its not).
Alcohol is literally a toxin which makes heavy demands on the liver and other organs to process it and allow it to be safely eliminated. The first step of alcohol metabolism produces acetaldehyde, a highly reactive and toxic compound.
"High concentrations of acetaldehyde in the brain and other tissues are responsible for many of the damaging effects of excessive alcohol intake"
from "Understanding Nutrition" (2024) ; Whitney, Rolfe
To explain in full how alcohol contributes to fatty liver disease:
"The reactions from alcohol to acetaldehyde to acetate produce hydrogens and electrons. The B vitamin Niacin, in its role as a coenzyme, picks up these hydrogens and electrons and escorts them to the electron transport chain.
During alcohol metabolism, the multitude of other metabolic processes for which the Niacin coenzyme is required, including glycolysis, the TCA Cycle, and the electron transport chain, falter."
"The accumulation of coenzymes with their hydrogens and electrons slows the TCA cycle, so pyruvate and acetyl CoA build up. Excess acetyl CoA then takes the pathway to fatty acid synthesis and fat clogs the liver."
also from "Understanding Nutrition" (2024) ; Whitney, Rolfe
The basic statement that alcohol intake is not conducive to health in cases of fatty liver or pre-diabetes is certainly inarguable, perhaps even obvious.
But you are attempting to obfuscate the fact that the entire logic of your argument that alcohol is harmful to the liver has been invalidated because it rested on the false premise that alcohol is "converted to sugar". Every point you made that followed, about glycemic index, insulin (which you don't understand the function of ) and the liver getting "overloaded dealing with so much sugar", made no sense because alcohol is not a carbohydrate, is not converted to sugar and does not lead to fatty liver disease by the mechanisms which you claimed.
The mechanisms by which alcohol contributes to fatty liver disease are explained above.
My larger point is : instead of trying to explain things which you don't understand, why not ask a question and someone (maybe me, maybe another forum member) might be able to help you understand it or clarify a misunderstanding. When you are not clear about something, it is no shame to admit : "I don't understand that mechanism or process, does anyone know how X works?".
Switching gears a bit, on the "Cholesterol Hypothesis", actually it's no longer considered a hypothesis - according to the 2019 European Society of Cardiology (ESC) and European Atherosclerosis Society (EAS) Guidelines for the management of dyslipidaemias:
"there is no longer an ‘LDL-C hypothesis’, but established facts that increased LDL-C values are causally related to ASCVD, and that lowering LDL particles and other ApoB-containing lipoproteins as much as possible reduces CV events."
from academic.oup.com/eurheartj/...
It's wild that you bring up Ancel Keys as if the science on cholesterol has stood still since the publication of the Seven Countries study decades ago and the formulation of the diet-heart hypothesis.
I suggest you review this page from RationalWiki on cholesterol denialism which has some excellent information : rationalwiki.org/wiki/Chole...
It is not necessary to "balance" Omega 3 and Omega-6 - if you are getting enough Omega-3 (especially long chain omega 3's like EPA/DHA), then there is no need to be in the least concerned about Omega-6 intake.
You state that "ALA derived from saturated fat is the healthy choice for the body not LA".
This is another example of where you simply have no grasp of the science. You can't derive an Omega-3 essential fatty acid (ALA) from a saturated fatty acid.
There are only two essential fatty acids, Linoleic Acid/LA (an Omega-6) and Alpha-Linoleic Acid/ALA (an Omega-3). BOTH are essential. I will repeat that. Linoleic Acid, an Omega-6 is an ESSENTIAL fatty acid. It MUST be part of the diet as it cannot be produced endogenously.
The best sources of Alpha-Linoleic Acid (the essential Omega-3 fatty acid) are plants or plant-derived and include flaxseeds, chia seeds, walnuts, rapeseed/canola oil 😁 soyabean oil, soybeans and avocados.
You will notice that the dreaded seed oils which you fear so much are among the best sources of ALA, and according to you ALA is the "healthy choice for the body". Have you changed your mind and now want to recommend the consumption of seed oils? Or are you willing to admit that you're just hopelessly confused?
Provide a reference to your claim that Ancel Keys retracted the cholesterol hypothesis "in his later years". It makes no difference to the weight of evidence that currently exists for the cholesterol non-hypothesis which is now accepted as fact but it would be interesting to see you back that up.
Please also provide a reference to the "FDA announcing , was it 2years ago, that cholesterol was not a major issue". Make sure you understand the difference between dietary cholesterol and serum cholesterol.
To save time you might also want to review a historical post on this forum from a poster who made strikingly similar arguments and had the same problems with basic understandings of nutrition science, lipidology and the mechanisms of cardiovascular disease. In fact, your argumentation so similar that I wouldn't be surprised if you are the same person 🙃
See: healthunlocked.com/pasoc/po...
Thanks for your posting and interesting information to consider
With Reference to Ancel Keys, I do think that you will enjoy reading this analysis of his 7 countries data. We all need to take a broader view
The retraction I mentioned was probably misplaced - I heard in a podcast where it was claimed he was supposed to have mentioned the omition of the 15 other countries data. (probably more for clarification than to fudge the data to fit his hypothesis) Also claimed was that boxes of data were found after his death hidden away ostensibly in his garage? I don't know about you, but I don't have the energy to clear my stored items of years. I wouldn't class these as hidden.
I do hope you will read the attached
deniseminger.com/2011/12/22...
Yes I know Denise Minger. She made an interesting journey - the video is a bit long but goes into that along with covering some of Ancel Keys work (along with Nina Teicholz and Gary Taubes).
m.youtube.com/watch?v=OkqWd...
The "boxes of data hidden in the garage" you're referring to is probably the infamous Minnesota Coronary Experiment. Here is some good coverage of that:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=hmU_C...
This is all very fascinating but I was more wondering how you initially became convinced of the ideas you've put forward. They're sort of "classics" of low-carb mis/disinformation but I'm always amazed at how they rarely stand alone as a single misunderstanding but generally cluster with a whole raft of misunderstandings about nutrition science and nutrition science history.
As the thread proceeds, we will inevitably find the conversation is just 1:1 as the thread gets lost down the main page of the site. That's fine with me but just to be aware that it's going to be increasingly like two people stuck in an endless discussion in the pub long after their friends have left 😅
😀 😀 Fabulous retort
Yes I originally found many years ago , about 12 years ago ,clinician Chris Kresser podcasts in which he interviewed many Functional Health doctors and clinicians. I therefore had plenty of names to then follow down that 'rabbit hole' I found most made absolute sense which I had never received from the NHS and so started to learn and follow their work and improve my health. That's all folks 😀
Thanks Technoid for the explanation of how alcohol metabolism works and I will happily admit that I was wrong. We all need to do so, we do not learn if always right.
It does seem though from your explanation that metabolism of alcohol in the end clogs up the liver with fat. Which obviously is not desireable, however we get there.
NAFL is I had always believed caused by the consumption of excess refined carbohydrates. And with the limitation of the liver to store an inexhaustable amount of glucose , converts the excess not used for energy production to saturated fat to store within the body usually around organs and middle area. Hence if have a diagnosis of fatty liver or pre diabetes/ diabetes or wish to prevent such, it is better to lower or even not consume refined carbohydrates. Insulin is known as the fat storage hormone and as far as I had learned from listening to doctor conference presentations and reading their and many others books. But it cannot be denied that countless cases of Type 11 diabetes have been reversed by not eating refined carbohydrates and thus not needing to stimulate insulin production Would you say that is correct?
With reference to cholesterol. Cholesterol is required for so many functions in the body including dealing with inflamation, repair, defence, making of hormones and on and on. It is obvious that cholesterol is so crucial or we wouldn't have evolved receptors for on most of our cells. You are testing me as I have no intention of getting some of many of my books out to quote information read. I am too busy and just posted to try and help someone. But I remember the basics which is , the older you become the need is far greater that cholesterol is higher. You have lived longer and the body has suffered more insults requiring a higher cholesterol, not lower as Pfizer and the pharmaceutical companies would have us believe. I would refer you to British Dr Malcolm Kendrick 's work of 30+ years to grasp the cause of heart disease. 'The Clot Thickens' He, Zoe Harcombe, and Dr Aseem Mahlotra have just won their libel court case when accused of the harm they caused by being Statin deniers. Dr Kendrick was an advisor on the European Board of Cardiology.
However I do apologise, the FDA statement was that there no longer needs to be any concern over consumption of dietary cholesterol. Which is obvious but always previously a mantra.
I did give advice on this post that eggs are an excellent food to eat if diagnosed with a liver condition due to the choline content of eggs which is required to help clear/clean the Liver. Would you agree with that view. I don't want to be wrong again - thanks
Oops forgot to say. No I was not the same person that you refer to as posting previously . I did check your link
Thanks for the fair response. It will take me a bit to prepare adequate responses on all the above this weekend, but in the meantime, here is a short video covering the Omega-3/Omega-6 Ratio:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=vobxj...
Thank you Technoid for the video and the analysis of the importance of the omega 6/3 ratio. Although a simple explanation of nutritional values we need to be concerned about/or not be. I wonder how correct he is and where he has deduced his conclusions from.
I would infer from the following study that there are others that would conclude that omega 3 provision in our food system is necessarily crucial .
This study proves to me that we are not only what we eat but what our food eats and omega 3 being central to human health. And what seems a beneficial food for our livestock will consequently be beneficial for human health. And just to clarify my thoughts, note the animals fed grain are fattened rapidly leading to a shorter time period to slaughter making the intensively reared, grain fed cattle far more profitable for the farmer but less healthy for the human
sciencedirect.com/science/a...
"there are others that would conclude that omega 3 provision in our food system is necessarily crucial ."
I think you have misunderstood. Omega-3 fatty acids are ESSENTIAL to human health. As are Omega-6 fatty acids. The question the video was answering was regarding whether the ratio of Omega-3:Omega-6 matters, the answer being, no, not as long as adequate total omega-3 and omega-6 are being consumed.
References to the studies are provided in the YouTube description, they are:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/320...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/346...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/181...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/168...
The content of Omega-3 fatty acids in beef (even grass-fed beef) is fairly low and you would have to eat unhealthy amounts of it to reach an adequate Omega-3 intake - generally fish are more often recommended as the best source of long-chain EPA/DHA Omega-3 fatty acids, but these amounts can also be reached with easily accessible algae-derived EPA/DHA supplements. For Omega-3's from plant-sources (ALA), there are many well-known high quality sources, some of which are mentioned in the video.
Yes I appreciate best sources and supplementation of omega 3. I referred you to the study to note that animal products including beef / dairy will contain a higher omega 3 content if the animal is pasture raised. (ALA) Which is excellent for the animal being species appropriate, for the human and for the climate. Although pasture raised beef and dairy have double the amount of omega 3 content it is not exclusively sufficient for human needs and we need to bear in mind the excellent wild salmon source and free range eggs source. ( fish roe and liver which has fewer enthusiasts)
But in the study I posted, the ratio of omega 3/6 is considered relevant and important. Which is why I asked you whether this Doctor Nagra's information could be relied upon.
I cannot find that the links you posted did support Dr Nagra's statement that the ratio is unimportant
I refer you to the 2 inks below
chriskresser.com/how-too-mu...
chriskresser.com/how-much-o...
"Although pasture raised beef and dairy have double the amount of omega 3 content it is not exclusively sufficient for human needs "
That's a massive understatement. The amount of Omega-3 in pasture raised beef is just miniscule in comparison to what you would get from just 2 tablespoons of ground/broken flaxseed.
According to this article from Texas A&M University, Animal Science:
"a quarter pounder ground beef patty from grass-fed cattle contains 0.055 of the 1.1 grams ALA required by women and 0.055 of the 1.6 grams ALA required by men. In other words, that ground beef patty from cattle fed native Texas pastures contains only 5 percent of the DRI for ALA for women and just over 3 percent of the DRI for ALA for men."
from : animalscience.tamu.edu/2019...
while
"Incorporating just 2 T(ablespoons) of flaxseed into your daily diet will provide about 3 1/2 g of ALA, which exceeds the amount recommended by the National Institutes of Health"
from todaysdietitian.com/newarch...
That's 3 + 1/2 grams of ALA per serving of flaxseed versus 0.055 grams of ALA in a quarter pound beef patty from grass fed cattle. They're not even in same ball park. The idea that grass-beef could be useful as a significant source of Omega-3 in the diet is farcical when ALA is much more easily, safely (and cheaply!) obtained from other foods.
As for milk, this section of a blog from an animal geneticist sums it up well:
"an eight fluid ounce cup (244 g) of 3.25% fat milk has 0.183 grams of omega-3s, most of it 18:3 (ALA). A half fillet serving (178 g) of salmon has 4.023 grams of omega-3s, most of it EPA and DHA. In other words I get more than 20 times the omega-3 fatty acids from a serving of salmon that I get from a glass of milk, and they are the long-chain varieties"
from biobeef.faculty.ucdavis.edu...
In case you want references for the ALA amounts, you can check them here:
244g Whole Dairy Milk : tools.myfooddata.com/nutrit...
178g Cooked Atlantic Salmon (farmed) : tools.myfooddata.com/nutrit...
2 tablespoons flaxseed : tools.myfooddata.com/nutrit...
You wrote:
"But in the study I posted, the ratio of omega 3/6 is considered relevant and important."
In the study you posted, sirloin steaks were purchased from various supermarkets and farms and their fatty acid content was tested. That composition was "relevant" and "important" to those doing the study because that is what they had decided to investigate. The importance, relevance or lack thereof, of the composition of dietary omega-3 to omega-6 in HUMAN diets, was not investigated in your study.
Whether the Omega-3 to Omega-6 composition in animal fat is "relevant" or "important" in terms of human diet, nutrition and health outcomes is a question not investigated or answered by your study.
But the question of whether such ratios matter in the context of the overall diet is a question explored by several of the studies mentioned by Matt Nagra.
You state that:
"I cannot find that the links you posted did support Dr Nagra's statement that the ratio is unimportant"
Did you watch his video? It's 2 minutes long but you still manage to misrepresent his conclusions. The conclusion was that the ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 in the diet is likely not important, SO LONG as adequate amounts of Omega-3 and Omega-6 are consumed overall.
You claim that the studies do not support his statement. Did you read the titles, abstract or conclusions?
For example, one of the studies mentioned was the following randomized controlled trial:
"Conversion of alpha-linolenic acid in humans is influenced by the absolute amounts of alpha-linolenic acid and linoleic acid in the diet and not by their ratio"
The conclusion of the study was (my bolding) that "The amounts of ALA and LA in the diet, but not their ratio, determine ALA conversion."
The final study is paywalled but the conclusion was as follows: (my bolding)
"The OPTILIP study set out to determine the optimal ratio of n-6/n-3 PUFAs in the UK diet but inadvertently succeeded in establishing the irrelevance of this dietary ratio and reaffirming the benefits of LC n-3 PUFAs. The stable isotope tracer study by Goyens et al. [22] arrived at the same conclusion on the value of the ratio of n-6/n-3 PUFAs, and also produced evidence to suggest that the conversion of ALA to LC n-3 PUFAs could be enhanced by decreasing and increasing the absolute amounts sof dietary linoleic acid and ALA respectively. The ratio of n-6/n-3 PUFAs might be dead, but the question of how linoleic acid and ALA influence the conversion of ALA,especially under pathophysiological conditions, is stillvery much alive."
I'm at a loss to understand how you think that those studies do not support his statement. If you have issues with the studies or doubts on the conclusions that can be drawn from them, I would be interested to hear those details but blankly stating that they do not support his conclusion is a bit strange considering that even the most cursory inspection of the titles and conclusions seem to show that they appear to do exactly that.
On cholesterol - you probably heard this before but it bears repeating - every cell in your body can make cholesterol - you don't need to consume it. Cholesterol is essential to life but your body can make as much of it that it needs, whenever it needs it. An elevated serum LDL cholesterol is NOT protective or beneficial, for any age group.
Just quickly on eggs, no, there is no good reason to eat eggs in order to "clean the liver". Whether eggs will have a negative effect on your ApoB (the lipid-related lipoprotein associated with heart disease) is going to depend on how many you eat, what your overall diet looks like, and genetic factors in terms of how you absorb dietary cholesterol (there are wide variations). Some people might be able to get away with a lot, others not so much, so its impossible to give a general recommendation.
In terms of reading Malcolm Kendricks book written for a popular audience, I think I'll stick with my copy of "Clinical Lipidology (a companion to Braunwalds Heart Disease)", in a new edition published this year, which is a standard medical lipidology textbook which covers extremely well the lipid-related causes of heart disease. However they somehow forgot to include opinions from the forgotten geniuses, Malcolm Kendrick, Aseem Malhotra and Zoe Harcombe in any chapters. Must be a conspiracy I guess 😏
Speaking of Aseem Malhotra, he recently made an appearance on John Campbell's disinformation channel. He mentioned the apology from the Daily Mail which is covered in this video along with some of the other stuff he talked about.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=xTafp...
I agree with your statement about cholesterol synthesis, the body makes as much as it needs when nutritionaly complete. However if a drug is taken to reduce cholesterol synthesis eg a statin then the body cannot override the effect.
Hence my claim, the older and more insults the body has suffered the more dependant we are on higher levels of cholesterol for repair/defence. Which leads us to examine the sanity of artificially reducing the cholesterol synthesis capability in midlife to older members of the population with a drug.
According to your statement, if the body needs it, it will make it so why interfere and prevent this natural function of the body from providing what it needs by doing so with a statin . That was my point.
And as for enriching the diet with choline and other nutrients with eggs, studies have shown overall benefit with certain variables as is always the case with anything. I would say that if someone has been diagnosed with NAFLD then it would be helpful for the doctor to investigate the root cause of the condition and dicuss the possibility of a naturally determined source of choline aka eggs being introduced into the diet for benefit. Rather than patients being left with a diagnosis but with no comment as to what may help which is usual if not always the case. As with my friend and colleague who was taken too early with Pancreatic Cancer. FattyLiver correlation with Fatty Pancreas. Should we not as individuals try something such as choline to see if there is a benefit rather than live with the silence of doing nothing.
sciencedirect.com/science/a...
Also I would love to read your opinion of C15 fatty acid intake and the fragility/ stability of cell wall structure.
I don't think C15 is worth taking:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=1AP8w...
Hmm, thanks for the consideration. I feel incorporating food containing high amounts of C15 into your diet could be beneficial just as incoporating foods containing other essential fatty acids such as anchioves for omega 3s. Why not recognise beneficial nutrients and include them in your diet
uh, maybe because the evidence that C15 is beneficial does not exist?
Hi again, depends what you call evidence. If there is conjecture then all I am saying is why not eat the food it is naturally found in. Can't harm and may well be beneficial. It is the first new fatty acid to be discovered in over 90yrs and it is claimed to be like omega 3's a gamechanger in cellular health.
Err why not , Do you want this cheese or this cheese? oh I will choose this cheese because it does not contain C15. Don't want to have cheese with good levels of C15 as there is no confirmed evidence of benefit yet If you are going to have cheese anyway? Or perhaps you are a vegetarian
Have you heard of the work of epidemiologist Dr Stephanie Venn Watson with ageing dolphins and C15 - interesting
Did you watch the video I shared from Physionic? He goes through the available scientific evidence for C15 and his conclusion was that:
"taking all this data together I'm inclined to strongly disagree that anyone should buy C15 fats. I think that the evidence is very weak overall".
My question to you would be, are you actually interested in what the nutrition science evidence says about C15?
If you're not interested and you don't intend to make any decisions based on that evidence, it seems a bit pointless to discuss it.
Stephanie Venn Watson co-founded a supplement company that sells c15 supplements. Would you take the word of someone who owns a company that sells that supplement on its benefits?
I never cease to be confused that people can be ultra-suspicious about the motivations of pharmaceutical companies when it comes to statins but when it comes to supplement companies (some of which are owned by "big pharma"), the word of supplement company owners who have a direct monetary interest in selling that supplement is considered more credible than the entire scientific evidence base, which does not indicate a clear benefit to taking that supplement.
You're assuming that C15 "Can't harm and may well be beneficial." but you don't know that. Nobody does, because it hasn't been well studied yet. Doses and exposures matter, the form could matter, there could be positive short term but negative long-term effects, for example.
You cant assume that just because a food contains a nutrient that is beneficial (and we are not sure yet that C15 is beneficial) that we should consume more of that food.
Processed red meat contains essential nutrients, B12 and Iron, but we can't assume from that, that consumption of processed red meat is beneficial. When we look at human outcome data we find the exact opposite - that consumption of high levels of processed red meat is linked to higher risks of colorectal cancer and other negative health outcomes.
I am pretty confused because, the video went systematically over the evidence for C15 (which is poor), and your response was that whether C15 might be beneficial "depends what you call evidence". So let me be clear - what I call "evidence" here is the preponderance of nutrition science evidence, as published in academic journals etc. The evidence that was covered in the video.
So my question for you, is what do you regard as evidence? The opinion of the owner of a supplement company on the supplement they sell?
I am struggling to understand how you make your nutrition decisions here so I need some help.
And since you alluded to it and I'd like to be transparent, I am vegan so , no I wouldn't personally be eating cheese, presence or absence of C15 not withstanding.
I do supplement some things like Creatine and Taurine which I think there is stronger evidence for, but on the basis of what we know about C15 so far, no, I don't see a compelling reason to add it to my stack.
Dear oh dear! We seem to get more and more, er, what's the word, 'Rubbish'? on here, don't we?
I've always been rather suspicious of anyone who waves a flag for something but also has a link to their own site that sells the stuff. They might be genuine, they might even be sincere but misled. For me, I'll simply carry on grazing!
I'm interested in your approach to vegan lifestyle. My sister is vegetarian, and has been for over 50 years, but she's addicted to cheese. It takes all sorts. It's not something that I could manage, personally. How do you get supplies of Creatine and Taurine that are vegan-friendly? Just interested!
I get a lot of my supplements from a German supplied called Sunday Natural, the rest just off-the-shelf from local health/vitamin stores.. I don't think I've come across any non-vegan pure Creatine supplements. There could be a gelatin capsule for Taurine I suppose but Creatine Monohydrate generally comes in a raw powdered form.
Hi, I did watch the video thanks , 3x , I haven't watched his omega 3 one yet but intend to. He himself stated that with C15 fatty acid there were no studies that proved any benefit but also the studies he was looking at showed no harm with reference to heart disease etc.
Lets face it, there wont be many studies when C15 has been more recently discovered. So I suppose like with many situations, it is a wait and see scenario. In 50 years time this fatty acid may be proven to be extremely healthful however I do not have 50 years to wait
The guy from Physionic was suggesting that people would be wasting their money if purchased a C15 supplement. I was not suggesting that anyone should purchase a supplement . I was suggesting that it could possibly be health promoting considering the information and buzz about, and that if one eats cheese anyway, changing from one type of cheese to another is hardly going to be life changing unless of course C15 does promote health and is something many are short of in their diet.
Hardly controversial which you seem to be making it. I asked for your opinion and you kindly gave it. Thank you. But forgive me if I prefer to be a liitle adventurous and change the cheese I buy to one that many Italians eat and visitors to Italy also. So much so that it is now available in the UK supermarkets. Delicious and quite possibly heath promoting, now wouldnt that be wonderful or just delicious, we take our chances
To FlipperTD, I too am also suspicious of anyone touting a product that would benefit them financially. (oh, goodness could that be Pharma and Big Agriculture) But seeing that all information was given by epidemiologist Stephanie Venn Watson about how to obtain naturally in food, she kind of shot herself in the foot if she was trying to promote her product exclusively. By the way, she works for the US military and was referring to those studies initiated by their own observations
Sorry don't talk to me Technoid about the consumption of red meat not being condusive to health, causing heart issues and cancer. Such studies are trawled out regularly for the eagerly awaiting media to brainwash the unsuspecting public. And such studies were not conducted appropriately if analysed, yes even Harvard's. I very much doubt that the human race would still exist if red meat had been harmful to our ancestral hunter gatherers prior to human settlements and agriculure 10,000 years ago. Please dont mention Climate Change. Do folks recognise what the most release of carbon into our atmosphere is from Ploughing the massive fields to grow the world's grains. That doesn't need a study, it is obvious to anyone who thinks. Although there will be many studies. Disturbed soil releases carbon, end of . This is why shallow ploughing is now being endorsed. And interestingly enough, speaking of financial gain from promoting their products, what do you think the Kellogs family and the 7th Day Adventists were doing in 19th century US and are still to this day to the detriment of our health. Cornflakes, a health product
Maybe others may read these posts and hear for the 1st time about the C15 fatty acid and possibly investigate possible health benefits from changing their cheese consumption to one that provides high levels . Let's hope so but it would take a certain adventurous mindset, after all we are talking about cheese
Calling it a day now with this post, FlipperTD designates it as Rubbish
what has the doctor prescribed as a result of fatty liver (other than cutting down)? I haven’t been prescribed anything for mine.
Nor me! It was years ago and no one mentioned it again. It is on my list of conditions.
Eggs, contain a high amount of choline which cleans the liver (I believe) I have 2 duck or hens eggs for breakfast and cut out the refined carbs as much as you can. (wheat flour, corn flour products such as cereals, bread, pasta, also rice) Anything that will raise your blood sugar rapidly. I believe fruit , starchy veg such as potatoes will digest more slowly if eaten more with the soluble fibre peel left on and with fat such as butter as this slows digestion and therefore should not be a problem.
NAFL (non-alcoholic fatty liver) is a known effect of PA/B12 deficiency. In many cases, it resolves itself after frequent B12 injections, in my case it was daily cyano. That was five years ago and now I am injecting 1mg, twice daily hydroxo. Liver has remained clear on U/S and CT and all functions are within normal limits.
makes sense!
medicalnewstoday.com/articl...
Here's a presentation on non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, that could be useful for anyone who is finding that sufficient B12 does not resolve.
Good news about your liver scnuke. May I ask roughly how long it took to resolve once you started daily injections?
It's difficult to put an exact time on it. My physicians at the time only ordered the CT and U/S at two year intervals, so after two years no mention was made of the NAFL. That was about five years ago and all has been clear since then.
Thank you for sharing.
If you are b12 deficient, tech kid is right, alcohol is not good as it inhibits b12 absorption.
Wizard is right about b6 helping with fatty liver and improving glucose tolerance
I'm not medically trained, but what I recently understood from trawling the Internet is low B12 causes high homocysteine, that's an indicator of B12 deficiency (or a genetic issue too).
Homocysteine is created when a specific essential protein amino acid , methionine, does not break down the right way. It needs all 3 vitamins B12, B6 and folate to be metabolised properly in the liver.
High homocysteine promotes the creation of low density lipoprotein LDL cholesterol. This comes as non alcoholic fatty liver disease, the wrong sort of plaque in your arteries, and weight gain.
Fructose - fruit sugar gets metabolised into fat in the liver, where glucose goes to muscle and brain for energy. Table sugar, sucrose, breaks down to glucose and fructose. Alcohol is frequently made from fruit and metabolises back into fructose. (Think Bears eat lots of berries to get fat in the autumn.)
So make sure you are getting enough vitamin B6, along with B12 and folate. Keep the sugar, alcohol and even fruit, particularly dried fruit, thinking of Christmas, low.
Wheat germ, yeast extract, sesame seeds, salmon and walnuts are all good sources of B6.
I've been unable to stop eating walnuts I bought recently! I've literally ordered a B6 pill supplement today, as ever there are better ones out there absorbtion wise. You can get injection ampoules too, so if there's been no effect I might try them. I'm hoping it might help clear up my poor skin problems, that I were told were psoriasis, but might be a symptom of B6 deficiency.
I'm just guessing as I now have adequate B12 in the system, B6 is in demand for the healing process. Fingers crossed.
Anyone out there who thinks I'm barking up the wrong tree, please do say.
Yeah the second part of this statement :
"Alcohol is frequently made from fruit and metabolises back into fructose. "
("metabolises back into fructose") is not correct.
This blog, mentioned above, contains a good short description of the metabolism of alcohol:
type1traveler.com/2016/02/0...
The three systems mentioned are:
"alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) located in the cytosol, the microsomal ethanol oxidazing system (MEOS) situated in the endoplasmic reticulum and catalase located in the peroxisomes."
For a more in depth explanation this article goes into more depth on all three systems:
sciencedirect.com/science/a...
It is not necessary for anyone to avoid reasonable servings of fruit (3 a day for example), including dried fruit unless they have some kind of intolerances or allergies.
I was overdosing on mince pies, because my other half loves them and I couldn't resist a couple, when I wrote that! They pretty quickly made me feel grotty. With Christmas looming it's best not to over do it.Thanks for the correction on alcohol digestion, I was misremembering Dr. Robert Lustig. There used to be a really good, but long, video by him on the details of how the body digests each sort of sugar, and alcohol. I wish I could find it again.
The B6 seems to be helping, but not as instantly as I hoped.
Negotiating the misinformation is difficult. I'm getting tired of telling vegans "No, you don't get vitamin B12 from soil."!!
I’ve had the same argument. But my understanding is that B12 does come from soil, but not as B12. It is some sort of bacteria that lives in the soil, and when animals eat the vegetation they ingest the bacteria as well, which their bodies convert to B12. Plants don’t absorb and synthesise it. I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong.
I should have written it, "YOU can't get B12 from soil". Yes, animals get the necessary cobalt, phosphorus and hydrocarbons from plants, that get it from nitrogen fixing bacteria, who get it from rocks and dead stuff. And yes poop contains some, so it gets recycled. But it's created by bacteria in animals' guts and absorbed from their guts. We can create a small amount in our large intestine, but that's below the ileum where we absorb it.
For the quantity you need to survive and thrive, if you are vegan, you are probably healthier on a processed food diet where they add it as a supplement!
As a vegan myself, I feel you on the ."No, you don't get vitamin B12 from soil."!!
I know at least one long term vegan who feels he doesn't need to think about supplementing at all. I couldn't even convince him and I've come across many harrowing stories along with my own experience and nutrition education.
Technically, there is B12 in soil (and poop) due to the bacteria which produce it,but you're not going to get adequate amounts of B12 from eating soil, if you could even do this, which would be inadvisable. Fortunately I think this is becoming more of a fringe belief, at least, of the vegans I've met personally, I only know that one guy.
Lustig is a wild one, one of the worst misinformation proponents going around I'd say. There's a great (long) video response from Layne Norton covering some of the craziness he came out when Lustig was interviewed on the Huberman podcast.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=LZPKT...
oh and this one is on Gundry but I think you will find some similar nonsense going on:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZemkG...
I rather think Dr. Robert Lustig has been proven right on sugar and insulin resistance causing the majority of obesity problems. With high fructose corn syrup being a particular baddie.The specific video I saw just detailed all the different metabolic processes and reactions the body has to the different sugars - glucose, fructose, lactose and alcohol. As I said I misremembered. Maybe the science has been tweaked since.
Dr. Gundry is something else.
Nothing uniquely bad about high-fructose corn syrup, it's got more to do with sugar-sweetened beverages and highly palatable convenience foods and junk foods that are easy to overeat.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=KuneP...
m.youtube.com/watch?v=G3WN4...
Insulin resistance is generally going to be a consequence of crossing what's called the "personal fat threshold", as a result of calorie surplus over time.
Very interesting reading here.
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