B12 and dementia, a brief mention

[Myoldcat]

For anyone interested, this is a mention of some new thoughts on the impact of nutrition, B12 and homocysteine on dementia. From the authors of What Doctors Don't Tell You magazine. subs.wddty.com/cr/AQiNvRUQ2...

[Sleepybunny]

Hi,

I found some interesting articles when I searched online for "older people dementia b12 deficiency uk".

[Myoldcat in reply to Sleepybunny]

I feel it's a huge unrecognised issue, given how many folk here are struggling with B12 deficiency diagnosis and treatment. We are the very tip of an enormous iceberg, and actually very fortunate in that we know our situation and can do something to help ourselves.

[Sleepybunny in reply to Myoldcat]

I remember a thread a few years ago where several of us mentioned we suspected our mothers had had B12 deficiency from PA or some other cause.

There's a story that mentions B12 deficiency on Dementia UK's website. It's very sad to read.

dementiauk.org/

[Myoldcat in reply to Sleepybunny]

Sadly my sister and I now realise our dear mum was almost certainly one of those people. Waxy yellow, going to unsteady walking from being an early adopter of power walking (we could never keep up as kids!) and early onset dementia. We didn't know enough at the time to ask for B12 testing. Now my whole family is bored to death by me 'reminding' them - ie nagging - to keep getting their levels checked, as we've discovered PA runs in our family.

[Sleepybunny in reply to Myoldcat]

"my whole family is bored to death by me 'reminding' them - ie nagging - to keep getting their levels checked"

So are mine...

It's quite difficult because the reason behind my B12 deficiency has never been found.

[LynetteinUSA in reply to Myoldcat]

I am so sad about your mom. I believe my mother as well had a deficiency but officially died from complications from Alzheimer's. While she was not diagnosed until 70, I definitely noticed changes in her way before then.

[Myoldcat in reply to LynetteinUSA]

Yes, if only we'd been more aware when she started to show symptoms. Hindsight is 20/20 vision, as they say.

[Technoid]

"What Doctors Don’t Tell You has been notorious for years as a source of misleading health claims, ranging from the dubious to the downright dangerous."

goodthinkingsociety.org/wha...

[Myoldcat in reply to Technoid]

I agree that some of their articles are somewhat on the fringe 🤪 and although not a scientist I try to read ALL health writing objectively - but wasn't Patrick Hokford one of the first people to make the link between high homocysteine and heart disease? And that's now well accepted. Previously fringe ideas can and do become mainstream. Insights and information can come from many sources. Just consider the way so many of our GPs are dismissive or downright hostile towards nutritional therapy, when we know it works!

[Technoid in reply to Myoldcat]

The current consensus on homocysteine is that it is a risk factor for cardiovascular disease but that there is currently insufficient evidence to indicate that it is causal. Placing an emphasis on homocysteine rather than ApoB/LDP-P would usually be mistaken as it is ApoB/LDL-P which is causal for atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease.

However, if you don't make money from statins but from selling B-Complex supplements, it is easy to see where it would more economic to place an emphasis, regardless of the evidence.

I think its better not to be concerned with whether an idea is "fringe" or "mainstream" but whether it is evidence-based or not. The popularity of an idea or theory does not have a consistent connection to whether it is correct or not.

The magazine does not promote merely "fringe" ideas, it promotes nonsense and misinformation which is not evidence-based and in some instances, a danger to public health. There is a difference. A good evidence-based publication should be skeptical but open to new ideas being investigated and tested out. This isn't one of those publications.

GP's are indeed often ignorant of the importance of nutrition. My wish is not for them to become dietitians but for them to recognise the limits of their knowledge and not confidently pronounce on things they know nothing about. Most GP's are out of their depth discussing B12 or any other nutrition topic and my main ask would be for them to recognize that fact and make referrals when appropriate. Generalists cannot be expected to be specialists, that is true in any profession but it's necessary to know where ones knowledge starts and ends.

Interpreting nutrition science objectively is not for the faint-hearted, indeed, there are entire courses on how to become capable in reading and interpreting the nutrition science literature. Even if someone is trying to be objective, when reading up on a specific question, it takes quite a while to get a bearing on the consensus of evidence in the field, what are the better studies, which have some issues and what those issues are, and which are complete junk, and why. If you don't know the consensus of the field on some topic you cannot easily tell whether a papers results challenge the whole field or buttress it. None of this is obvious even to someone reading trying to be objective.

For example a study may use an incorrect or inappropriate statistical method but how can you know this if you don't know the right statistics tests to use for each task. Some flawed meta-analysis include cohort studies in their reviews of randomized controlled trials. To discover this you would need to check every trial in the meta-analysis. Who does this? most will not, no matter how "objective" their reading.

If a paper makes a claim which doesnt fit the consensus of the evidence, can you recognise it and see how they came to that conclusion and whether their technique was flawed - its not trivial. As you can probably tell, I love the challenge of interpreting nutrition science but merely attempting to do so "objectively" is not going to be sufficient to really appraise the evidence.

If one cannot appraise the evidence or doesn't have time to learn how to do so, one is left with relying on the opinions of experts, which certainly may be flawed, but at least one can steer clear of publications peddling demonstrable nonsense.

[Rexz in reply to Technoid]

Perfect

[Snoopy99 in reply to Technoid]

Good points.

[WIZARD6787 in reply to Technoid]

"If one cannot appraise the evidence or doesn't have time to learn how to do so, one is left with relying on the opinions of experts"

Just because you are limited in that way does not mean that is the only way or even a preferred way only that it is your way. I can use science to create my own applied science which is more successful that other's way.

Note: Correcting unhealthy diet choices is not the only thing that people have to deal with as is true in your case.

[Katherine1234 in reply to Technoid]

Technoid I would think that is propaganda and that Goodthinking site is very suspect, along with others like Snopes. What Doctors Don't tell You are amazing, I have been a member for 20 years. I actually trained with Patrick Holford in the late 90's early 20 and he really knows his stuff. He has also treated the royal family.

If they attack or try and silence someone or something, I stop and I listen! If a top of their game doctor, scientist, or biologist speaks out (not in the pay of big pharma) I stop and I listen!

The medical profession ignored my low B12 until I was so incapacitated, my fatigue, brain nt working properly, ataxia and sensory overload was so bad. I had homocysteine checked then and it was off the charts. I had a latest homocysteine test 3 months ago and I was now at an 8 (better to be below a 5 or 6) and that is with plenty of B12 injections and a multi B every day. My brain now works fine, still some residual damage from being without B12 for so long, mainly ataxia.

The charity 'Food for the Brain' has put in countless studies to The Lancet saying B12, homocysteine, and food we eat, The Lancet has ignored them and gone in favor of drugs. The Lancet has now been bought and paid for by Pharma, along with our media and the such.

When Doctors Don't Tell You speak - I stop and I listen!

[bookish in reply to Katherine1234]

Beautifully put and well done you x

[Marz in reply to Katherine1234]

I remember reading some years ago about research being done on atherosclerosis causes. When examining the plaque they found homocysteine in addition to cholesterol ! As statins were about to be launched the research was well buried!

I learnt about Hcy from Patrick Holfords Nutrition Bible 18 years ago. Had it tested (in Crete) and yes it was in double figures... now fine. I inject B12 weekly and take a B Complex. No Terminal Ileum due to extensive gut surgery in 1972 for Ileo-caecal TB.

[WIZARD6787 in reply to Katherine1234]

Thank you for the information on homocysteine. I too benefited from threating my homocysteine levels.

[Hectorsmum2]

There is a great website called 'Food for the brain' Patrick Holfords works for them I think. You can test your memory and get recommendations for life style, food and supplements to protect and improve brain function. It has helped me.

[Myoldcat]

I wish there was less of an 'Us and Them' mentality between orthodox and complementary approaches to health. We all want to be our best selves, and many of us here integrate both where we can, either because of choice or necessity, as we've been poorly served by medics.

[WIZARD6787 in reply to Myoldcat]

Agreed. Only fools are absolutely certain.

[Myoldcat in reply to WIZARD6787]

Agreed...I feel we should all be taught critical thinking in this current crazy world!

[WIZARD6787 in reply to Myoldcat]

I'd settle for empathy and humility instead of the arrogance and myopic view.

[Myoldcat in reply to WIZARD6787]

Yes, I never understand why some 'experts' feel it's a disaster to admit that they don't know something, but they'll do their best to find out!

[WIZARD6787 in reply to Myoldcat]

It is often stated that what is important is happening at the cellular level and that what is needed is an individualised approach. This has all the import of a beauty queen saying they want to create world peace.

Experts and self proclaimed experts have their solution and see it as a solve for every single person. Note: On this forum treating a vegetarian diet which is fairly simplistic is seen by some veritiarins and the only self treatment needed and anything that does not relate to vegetarians is nonsense. Correcting a lifestyle choice is not what many if not most of us need to self treat.

In order for an expert to do their best to find out would require that they accept what a person experiences and accept what the effects are of any changes actually are experienced when supplementation is changed. This does not happen unless the person does the work themselves.

"We all want to be our best selves, and many of us here integrate both where we can, either because of choice or necessity, as we've been poorly served by medics." I concur!

[Technoid in reply to Myoldcat]

Couldn't agree more on the need for critical thinking Myoldcat . There is a nice series of videos available on youtube for anyone interested in the topic : m.youtube.com/playlist?list...

This cognitive bias "cheat-sheet" site has a lot of great info : betterhumans.pub/cognitive-...

A good framework for evaulating claims: thinkingispower.com/floater...

I would also recommend the popular book "Thinking, Fast and Slow", by Daniel Kahneman. For a more academic approach, consider the textbook "Critical Thinking : An Appeal to Reason" by Peg Tittle : routledge.com/Critical-Thin...

Another popular title worth investigating is "The Irrational Ape : why we fall for disinformation, conspiracy theory and propaganda" from David Robert Grimes.

The site I linked above , the good thinking society, run by Simon Singh has many great articles on topics of pseudoscience and alternative medicine : goodthinkingsociety.org/pro...

Simon was a co-author of the excellent book : "Trick Or Treatment: Alternative Medicine On Trial" which is well worth picking up.

Finally, I wrote a post for this site on the topic of "doing your own research" and resources to help with that:

healthunlocked.com/pasoc/po...

[Myoldcat in reply to Technoid]

Thanks Technoid, I will check them out. Not much of a Simon Singh fan but always willing to learn!

[WIZARD6787 in reply to Technoid]

You are the poster child for uncritical thinking. A critical thinker would not see anyone else's struggles as the same as theirs which in your case was caused by an unhealthy diet.

A critical thinker would understand they are NOT the arbitrator of what is valuable experience and what is good or bad. Evidence based according to Technoid is simply your evaluation. A critical thinker would respect others and not use inflammatory language to describe anything that does not match their personal views couched as evidence based.

It may be cognitive. Consider trying a trial of EOD as is the consensus for cognitive issues. The trial may be uncomfortable as you may start to have a clarity of mind resulting in empathy for others and start to see your way is not THE way.