B12 - a hidden inflammation trigger

[Jillymo]

I found this of interest.

When I were diagnosed both my ESR and CRP were both above range when tested and still are !.....

eurekalert.org/news-release....

Added this one in case other members have not seen..........

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[wedgewood]

Thank you Jillymo

. There more information we get on B12 deficiency, the more we realise the importance of good diagnosis and treatment . Wish that the medical professional thought likewise .

[Jillymo in reply to wedgewood]

You and me both.

I am still waiting for a capsual swallow but not heard a word from gastrollogy. Years ago if they had spotted something unusual on a scan they would have acted ASAP, but not now days ! 😡

[Wheat]

thank you Jillymo, very interesting articles x

[GracePV]

Thanks for the thought provoking articles. Strangely in my case my C reactive protein and homocysteine were both high and I managed to lower them through oral supplementation of B complex and Methylfolate. But the oral supplementation didn't help my B12 deficiency which kept plummeting. All my terrible B12 deficiency symptoms worsened until I got B12 injections. It was very confusing to have less inflammation but increasing neuropathy, myelin shealths disintegrating, depression anxiety etc. It's possible that the other B complex vitamins have more of an effect on oxidation and inflammation, but the B12 Def screws with neurons, neurotranmitters, and hormones. I sure would like to ask some questions and pose theories directly to the researchers.

[Jillymo in reply to GracePV]

I take B vits and Methyfolate but stillmy inflammationmarkers are high ! It has taken 3yrs of B12 injections to get relief from the neuropathy but even now if I do too much I get a nasty flare up of symptoms.

We are like a radio that needs a bit of fine tunning. 📻

[Technoid]

Thanks, interesting.

[Dewbuc]

Many thanks for those interesting and information links. I was under the impression that high levels of B12 were harmless but it has given me reason to recheck my,levels with this in mind.

[Suzibelle in reply to Dewbuc]

Hi Dewbuc. My reading of the paper is that high levels of B12 are beneficial in relation to inflammation in an inverse relationship: i.e. the higher the levels of B12, the lower the levels of inflammation markers. So not only harmless but good! Scientist here, not medic.

[Dewbuc in reply to Suzibelle]

I read the two articles very quickly but I thought there was also the observation that high levels can cause DNA damage which could be associated with increased cancer risk. Obviously the reduced inflammation is fantastic and I thought it was risk free. Perhaps that is not the case.

If only we could investigate B12 meta at warp speed as it undoubtedly has ver far reaching effects. Sadly there’s not much money in cheap vitamins however vitally important they are!

[Hockey_player in reply to Dewbuc]

I think you read the paper too quickly. Low levels of B12 are associated with DNA damage. From the conclusion: Vitamin B12, i.e., a group of chemical compounds called cobalamins, is essential for the proper functioning and metabolism of DNA. Indeed, numerous clinical studies report lower systemic vitamin B12 concentrations to be associated with higher levels of DNA damage and subsequent vitamin B12 treatment to decrease this damage

[Dewbuc in reply to Hockey_player]

I read it again and posted this. It’s almost buried towards the end of the NCBI paper.

These are the paragraphs in the NCBI paper that caught my eye. They are not fully elucidated but just raised a slight concern. The bulk of the research findings in the article are indeed very positive and it is a pity that these factors were included if in fact they are only of concern in the presence of an established cancer. I really would like further clarification. I doubt most GPs would have this level of understanding unfortunately and it highlights the need for much more intensive research.

“Taking into account the above studies, it can be assumed that both too low and too high an intake of vitamin B12 can lead to DNA hypomethylation. Changes in the methylation profile of genes can also lead to the development of neoplastic diseases, such as thyroid cancer. The thyroid is a special organ because it is also extremely vulnerable to DNA damage due to its intensive metabolism requiring reactive oxygen species [46,47].”

“An increase in cobalamin in serum is one of the diagnostic criteria for promyelocytic leukemia [110], and high plasma vitamin B12 levels are predictive of poor survival for patients with hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC) [111]. Hence, it should be emphasized that high doses of dietary supplements are not recommended for cancer prevention: nutritional needs should be met through healthy food and a proper diet, especially in healthy people, as this has a better impact on cancer protection than dietary supplements”

[Hockey_player in reply to Dewbuc]

High B12 levels are associated with several types of cancer. The cancer causes the high B12. I have not seen things to indicate that high B12 causes cancer.

[Dewbuc in reply to Hockey_player]

The paper does explain that it also indicates that high B 12 could actually contribute rather than just be the consequence. If that is so it has implications for all those of us who take supplements. It definitely needs to be thoroughly repudiated or elucidated further.

[MorningMist in reply to Dewbuc]

The opening summary states quite clearly ‘In addition to their protective functions, cobalamins can also generate DNA-damaging radicals in vitro..’ It is mentioned a couple of times and later in the paper, as you pointed out, as a possible contributing factor in the development of neoplastic diseases such as thyroid cancer. I thought too that the article was interesting but contradictory.

[MorningMist in reply to Dewbuc]

They should clarify how high levels of b12 could lead to hypo methylation.

[Technoid in reply to MorningMist]

Regarding their claim:

"Taking into account the above studies, it can be assumed that both too low and too high an intake of vitamin B12 can lead to DNA hypomethylation. "

Too low a B12 level could lead to hypomethylation, I can agree, but I did examine the two referenced studies and although the epigenetics one : ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl... is very dense and difficult, it was not clear to me reading it that they had discovered proof of hypomethylation as a result of excess B12. The paper is significantly above my pay grade so if someone did spot that in there, open to correction. I remain skeptical until I see this more clearly described or presented.

[MorningMist in reply to Technoid]

Yes I agree, and the study you reference included dietary intake plus supplement use in a wide group of people whereas the study inferring hypo methylation and dna damage from high levels was conducted in vitro.

[Jillymo]

I am injecting 2ml daily and remember it's water soluble so excess is excreated. The post is not to raise concern.

My levels must be high and I have no ill effect quite the opposite especially if you have an absorbtion problem.

[Suzibelle]

Thanks Jillymo, most interesting. For several years before I was diagnosed, even before I started having symptoms, my blood tests kept coming back with elevated levels of inflammation markers but none of the doctors could work out why. Now I suspect I have the answer and I don't recall anyone saying anything about my markers for years!

[Jillymo in reply to Suzibelle]

My inflammation markers have been raised for years but nobody investigated! Turns out I have crohns. 🤔

[Canadian77]

Thank you for this.

So in theory high levels of B12 can help with all autoimmune conditions?

[Jillymo in reply to Canadian77]

? 🤔 I dont know about that theory as 'not all autoimmune conditions' are caused by inflammation.

But an interesting artical I thought.

[Canadian77]

I have seen this great article on B12 injections halting and reversing Autoimmune Atrophic gastritis

sciencedirect.com/science/a...

On the FB group ran by Pat Kornic, I have seen members posting scope results from 3 years after diagnosis with metaplasia and atrophy gone

[Jillymo in reply to Canadian77]

I have seen this interesting artical but we have to remember Autoimmune Atrophic Gastritis is why many PA suffer's do not absorb so need B12 injections. Indeed the B12 helps with the absorbtion but not so sure that it reverses the condition or cures - hence whyB12 injections are for life in regard to PA.

[Technoid in reply to Canadian77]

Bear in mind that antibodies to gastric parietal cells are not the only antibody issue with PA. Many of those with PA may also have antibodies to intrinsic factor. As the paper itself states:

" 40–80% of PA patients have anti-intrinsic factor antibodies that bind to the vitamin B12-binding site of the intrinsic factor and subsequently inactivate the vitamin B12 absorption-aiding function of the intrinsic factor"

There's actually two types of intrinsic factor antibody but you get the general idea. The paper did not mention any detection, measurement or reduction in those.

The other weird thing about this study is they talk only about the remission of ORAL symptoms when one would imagine that many patients with auto-immune atrophic gastritis would very likely have quite a few serious symptoms that go well beyond oral complaints, but if they did, they are never mentioned.

It makes sense that the atrophic gastritis might improve after some years of B12 treatment but it does not seem like the gastric parietal cell antibodies completely disappear and injections (or some similarly effective treatment) need to continue to keep antibody levels down (as described in the paper). It would be remarkable if treatment of advanced auto-immune atrophic gastritis somehow put a complete stop to the auto-immune antibody activity but they don't seem to have found that in this paper (unfortunately).

[MorningMist in reply to Technoid]

It was a study of patients from an oral disease clinic specifically. What I find interesting is that in Taiwan oral symptoms of deficiency should be seen to merit investigation in their own right. In the uk burning mouth, sore tongue etc are just included as incidentals in a long list of symptoms that medics frequently brush aside.

They also noted that oral supplements were ineffective.

[Canadian77 in reply to Technoid]

HI It says in article:

Regular and continuous effective vitamin B12 therapy may reverse the severe autoimmune gastritis to moderate or mild gastritis or even to a nearly normal gastric mucosa status. This can further explain why our GPCA-positive patients with different severities of autoimmune gastritis may reduce their relatively higher serum GPCA titers to significantly lower or undetectable levels after effective vitamin B12 therapy

Reduce the gastritis, reduce gpca anti bodies, mataplasia will heal

You will still have autoimmune gastritis but it can be controlled

I have seen on another FB group people posting their scope and pathology reports after B12 treatment with Metaplasia and Atrophy gone

[Technoid in reply to Canadian77]

Yes, I read the article. As I said it is not clear that antibodies to intrinsic factor were affected one way or another since they were not tested for. It's good that there would be a reduction or elimation of metaplasia or gastric atrophy in some cases but since antibodies return when treatment is stopped this doesn't really change anything about how PA patients are currently treating their condition that I can see.

[Canadian77 in reply to Technoid]

Yes, B12 is for life . Just trying to grab onto and share any good news.