Update: opinions please

[Popcorn12345]

Juat been told I have liw vitamin D.Could this be a reason my b12 was also low?

I've read low vit D can effect B12 absorbtion.

Is that correct?

[Nackapan]

I understood it as if absorbtion is slowed it affects more vitamins and minerals than B12.

[Popcorn12345 in reply to Nackapan]

I don't understand lol

[Nackapan in reply to Popcorn12345]

If an absorption issue .Lots of vitamins and minerals will get deficient.

[Popcorn12345]

But I don't know if its an absorbtion issue

[Nackapan in reply to Popcorn12345]

If you are eating a good mixed diet .Still are deficient.

You are not absorbing ftom your food .

My vitamin Dropped a year before b12 tested and severely low.

Most take oral vit d witb K2 over the winter

400mcg recommended to all child bearing age women.

Iron is prescribed if needed.

Most multivits contain 14mg

All tablet or spray form.

B12 csn beabsorbec by some orally in high doses.

[Marlboro123]

I found I had low vit D in a routine blood test and to be honest didn't think much of it as only a vitamin! but 5 years later and very low b12, low folate, low ferritin, so all part of bigger picture. Little did I know just what damage can be done by vitamin deficiency.

[Popcorn12345 in reply to Marlboro123]

And what was the reason you were deficient. I am not taking a b12 and vit d supplement

[Marlboro123 in reply to Popcorn12345]

I was not taking any supplements either prior to b12 blood test and was subsequently put on loading b12 injections, folate and over the counter vit D , ferritin ignored by g.p and not much enthusiasm to find out causes so took another year for me to get a private doctor to diagnose auto immune p.a, iron deficiency, folate deficiency, vitamin D deficiency, positive parietal cell antibodies. Now self inject as let down by NHS.

[Popcorn12345]

Do you self inject all the vits?

[Technoid]

I believe the condition that causes PA, autoimmune atrophic gastritis, may affect Vitamin D absorption and Vitamin D deficiency is often found with PA.

ref : "Relevance of vitamin D deficiency in patients with chronic autoimmune atrophic gastritis: a prospective study"

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

A vitamin D deficiency may affect the oral absorption of B12 via Calcium:

ref: "Evaluation of correlation between vitamin D with vitamin B12 and folate in children"

sciencedirect.com/science/a...

But if you have PA, the main oral absorption route, intrinsic factor, would not be working anyway due to autoimmune attack and destruction of parietal cells.

[Orchard33]

I work on the assumption that I have an absorption problem for everything. This may or may not be true. I now use only a liquid multivit/mineral etc on the assumption that liquid may be easier to absorb.

[Noelnoel in reply to Orchard33]

What’s the brand?

Did you know that most multivits are usually too low a dose to address deficiency and the quality is nearly always inferior and as if that isn’t bad enough they often contain vitamin/minerals that should never be taken at the same time because they affect absorption of other vitamins or minerals . They sometimes contain iodine which some authorities believe should be avoided at all costs with autoimmune thyroiditis/Hashimoto

Not saying yours is one of those but be aware

[Orchard33 in reply to Noelnoel]

The brand is Nutra. Swedish. I know that what you're saying is valid. As usual, we so often have to suck it and see in the belief that we won't do too much damage and hopefully we'll do some good and that we'll know the difference between the two by how we feel.

[Katherine1234]

I don't take vitamin D supplementation anymore. There has been some controversy over it. I take 2 teaspoons of Rosita's cod liver oil. The pure one in a glass bottle, you keep in fridge. It has lemon in it, so it does not have that yucky cod liver oil taste. I also take 2 desiccated liver capsules a day after my evening meal. I am not someone who could eat liver once of twice a week :/ I have tinned cod livers here but have not plucked up the courage yet. I also eat tinned mackerel and tinned anchovies twice a week and make sure I get a lot of eggs and Kerrygold butter. I am after the DHA and retinol vitamin A. that is why I follow this regime. Brain is a lot, lot sharper. I also self inject B12 every day and take high folate. I take wholefood vitamin C and copper. I also take Jarrows B-rights, magnesium, selenium, amino acids, natural vitamin E and MSN. I have a low thyroid problem too and am trying to dissolve 2 gallstones and a lot of toxic bile sludge. I have digestive problems and gallbladder as I was on 4 strong lots of antibiotics, so I take HCL, digestive enzymes, probiotics and ox bile with meals.

[Technoid in reply to Katherine1234]

"I don't take vitamin D supplementation anymore. There has been some controversy over it"

Can you explain the controversy?

[Katherine1234]

I can't really Technoid the jury is out. There are stories of huge doses of daily vitamin D curing illnesses, and stories of how bad vitamin D supplements are for you. I took 10,000 iu's a day for a couple of years and ended up with hypercalcemia. I did take daily K2 with it. No ones tells you how long it takes to get rid of the excess calcium out of your body. I am on year 2 of not taking D supplements and unfortunately I still show over range. I get my D from natural sources now and from the sun.

I follow Morley Robbins now and take no D. It is one of his first stops! I am on his protocol.

[Technoid in reply to Katherine1234]

So, 10,000IU of vitamin D is 2.5 times the tolerable upper limit and right at the edge of the lowest observeable adverse effect level. I definitely think it's unwise to regularly take 10,000IU unless you have known absorption issues with Vitamin D, are taking it on prescription, and are closely monitoring your Vitamin D level. But to my knowledge, higher doses are required to reach hypercalcemia, but maybe you had some co-existing issues such as thyroid. Hypercalcemia can have other causes than Vitamin D supplementation but it's not impossible that your very high dose contributed, or that there was some formulation error, which unfortunately does happen now and then (I posted recently about one terrible case).

Taking Vitamin K with Vitamin D will not prevent hypercalcemia.

That's great that you can get adequate Vitamin D from the sun but many people (like me) live at latitudes where that's going to be difficult to impossible for many months of the year, so for most people in that situation supplementing a reasonable dose of between 600IU to 2,000IU daily should be adequate with slightly higher doses only needed in specific circumstances. Once you start taking doses that are much higher than the tolerable upper limit, you get to the point where you are taking risks, especially if not regularly monitoring.

I had a quick look at Morley Robbins and his protocol. He talks a lot about copper deficiency but copper deficiency is extremely rare - I think his approach is typical of many alternative medicine practitioners who use the language of biochemistry, talking about mitochondria and enzymes but making claims that the root cause is some substance, vitamin or mineral that everyone else is clueless about but that only they realize is "the root cause". Sally Norton does it for Oxalates, Gundry does it for lectins, Linus Pauling did it for Vitamin C, Paul Saladino and Anthony Chaffee do it for vegetables. It's quite a distinctive pattern when you recognise it.

The truth is, as usual, a little more complex and nuanced.

[Katherine1234 in reply to Technoid]

Unfortunately I took 10,000 iu's a day for nearly 2 years. I do have hypothyroid and pernicious anemia. Sun is not good in UK, but if it is out I do make sure I get 15 minutes of sun at least twice a day.

[Katherine1234 in reply to Technoid]

Morley Robbins is a researcher, not an alternative medical practitioner. He actually used to work for big pharma. He is highly respected. Your point on copper deficiency is extremely rare, is actually wrong. Copper deficiency a most valuable mineral is actually low in a lot of the population. It appears that it sometimes shows up as copper toxicity which is not quite right either. Too much copper floating around means it is pooling and not getting into cells. My take on it. Copper, magnesium, selenium has been a good boost for me. Mineral dysregulation is more common than first thought. Some of the people you quote as alternative medical practitioners are actually doctors, cardiologists and at the top of their game. Nobel prize winners in there too. I am wondering why you are so dismissive of them. They took a chance and spoke out against a corrupt system, even if it meant they would loose their medical licences and their money. I would rather stand by these doctors that had everything to loose but spoke out for humanity, rather than the doctors who stay silent whilst they know the system is wrong.

[Technoid in reply to Katherine1234]

Copper "deficiency is very unlikely to occur except in people with very rare genetic disorders or during prolonged starvation."

Ref : Nutrient Metabolism : Structures, Functions and Genes" - Martin Kohlmeier, Research Professor, Department Of Nutrition, University of North Carolina.

You're missing the point, I'm not saying that Robbins or the other people mentioned are alternative health practitioners but that their approach is one that is typical of many alternative health practitioners, or, blaming a single nutrient or "root cause" for everything in a typically simplistic and misleading way.

I know who the people mentioned are. The observation that many Nobel Prize winners go on to chase pseudoscientific ideas even has a name, "Nobel Disease": en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nob...

ref : bigthink.com/the-past/nobel...

I'm dismissive of their specific nonsense claims because it can be seen from understanding the available research that their claims have no scientific foundation.

You paint them as brave, outspoken heroes but in fact, in terms of building a personal brand to sell courses or supplements or views on social media, it's MORE lucrative to abandon consensus clinical or nutrition science and promote fringe, pseudoscientific and conspiratorial ideas.

Just look at the view counts on youtube, supplement sales or top book sales for promoters of pseudoscience like Malcolm Kendrick, Ken Berry, John Campbell, Liver King, Saladino or Gundry. Then look at the same numbers for those in the evidence-based medicine or nutrition space.

Heterodox ideas are the path to fame and fortune for many of these people and being ostracised by experts who understand the scientific consensus is of no significance to them if they don't publish peer-reviewed research or work in clinical practice, but instead make money from social media, courses, supplements, subscriptions or lifestyles.

For one of the most egregious examples, the liver king takes the cake:

entrepreneur.com/business-n...

It seems to me that the main purpose of Morley Robbins operation is to sell books, courses, supplements and affiliate programs to treat problems that likely do not exist.

Are these people really "speaking out for humanity" or are they speaking out for their own financial self-interest? I think a bit more skepticism is more warranted. Not everyone who disagrees with the scientific consensus is wrong (or right), but their claims should be examined cautiously to see if they hold weight against the consensus of the evidence.

Many of these folks have a strong financial conflict of interest in seeing their ideas promoted regardless of whether they have any foundation or might even cause harm.

[WIZARD6787 in reply to Technoid]

Same as those crackpots that used to try and get medical experts to sterilize. Medical personnel still have low conformance to washing their hands.

Science by agreement is not science.

Injection of over 1mg every other day is unlikely to have any benefit per current consensus.

Examine the consensus with the same critical method. Or just follow at your own risk. Some find not only comfort but self esteem from being a real good follower of the consensus.

[Katherine1234 in reply to Technoid]

Technoid you and I are not going to agree, and that is ok. I have looked at the research and it says as high as 40 to 60% are only having 1 mg of copper a day 20/40% under 1mg. I had suffered very badly with malnutrition. I was not absorbing any of my nutrients from my food. I was then on 4 lots of strong antibiotics which further took down my B12 and copper. I lost 32 lbs in weight and I was slim to start with. I was fed copious amounts of nitrous oxide and Oramorph.

You are quoting health people and doctors to me again. Please stop! I am not buying into your way of thinking. I am a nutritionist and a psychotherapist. Although I mainly use nutrition for mental health disorders. We do not look at the same research papers Technoid, so it is no good carry on with this. Please stop sending me paid for big pharma global health reports.