B complex vitamin

[3rdNettydoon]

I am taking a multi vitamin every day. What are the B complex people are taking. Can I take them with multi vits and are the complex for everyday?

[Technoid]

It depends. There are some very high strength B-Complexes out there that already have massive dosages. The main concern to me would be B6. If the B6 in the B complex is already at or over the EFSA tolerable upper limit (12.5mg) : efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajourn...

then whatever's in the multivitamin would increase the risk of overdose (and if taken long-term, neurological complications which none of us need any more of I think). If the B6 is in the synthetic form (pyridoxine) that would make me doubly nervous since that seems to be the form where most issues have been seen. Whether the dosage is really too much or not for you personally would depend on your absorption and current adequacy levels from blood tests.

[3rdNettydoon in reply to Technoid]

Thank you for this.Don't know enough about these things. Very pleased that you do. Thank you.

[jade_s]

'Conventional wisdom' says taking too much of one B vitamin (eg b12) will deplete the others, so many say a B complex is a good idea , but i've never seen scientific evidence to back this up. Technoid & WiscGuy have you seen any research on this?

On one of the b12/pa facebook forums they recommend taking 4 months B complex and then 2 months without, to avoid b6 building up. And one with less than 10mg B6.

I recently tested my B6 levels & i'm already top of the range so i look for ones with minimal B6. I have found 2, one from Swanson, and another from Nature Made, i get them from iherb. I'm not good about taking them 😂 Some people on the forum seem to struggle with low B1 or maybe B2 or B5... but not sure if you can measure them too (i suppose so). Some symptoms seem to overlap with low b12? Confusing, these B's are

[MrsTuft in reply to jade_s]

Do you have links to those bcomplex with low b6 please Jade ❤️?

[jade_s in reply to MrsTuft]

Swanson - low dose B's but i'm ok with that uk.iherb.com/pr/swanson-dai...

Couldn't find Nature Made on iherb! They used to have it. Manufacturer website naturemade.com/products/sup...

Thorne Basic B mentioned by whyamisotired uk.iherb.com/pr/thorne-basi...

[MrsTuft in reply to jade_s]

Thanks lovely 🥰

[jade_s in reply to MrsTuft]

You're welcome 😊🥰

[MindfulSquirrel in reply to jade_s]

Some very anecdotal evidence for B12 treatment using up more of the other B vitamins: I started my B complex about 10 days before my loading doses and it turned my wee a rather alarming shade of neon yellow! I was reassured to read that it’s just your body expelling the excess vitamins. Whilst receiving B12 injections my wee went back to its normal colour. Even in the period after my injections, my wee hasn’t gone back to that initial day glow colour.

And that ends my TMI post for the day 😂

[Technoid in reply to MindfulSquirrel]

MindfulSquirrel the neon yellow pee is probably excess riboflavin.

urmc.rochester.edu/encyclop...

Many B complexes contain huge doses many times the RDA so have this result.

jade_s I have read of a paper that described a decrease in active B12 which was hypothesised as due to excess folate and described a plausible mechanism for that outcome.

ref : ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Then there is the paper you mentioned below about folate potentially depleting B (Riboflavin)

I have not come across any research that any other B vitamin "depletes" others but have not made a thorough search.

With regards to staying away from multivitamins I think this is overly cautious. I think it is worth examining the multi to see if it fits your nutrient needs. If you don't know what you need, checking in Cronometer + blood tests is one way to check. Then you could choose one that fits you best. I alternate between a basic multi with 4 ingredients - B12, D, Iodine, Selenium, and a larger, more expensive multi with a couple of extra nutrients such as Omega 3's but still way less than a supermarket multi. I take some individual supplements on top but mainly fitness related and will do without the extras on holidays or other trips away. I get my extra B-vitamin fix from fortified nutritional yeast.

Nevertheless, I would not be frightened away from a supermarket multi with 100% RDA of the common nutrients. Unless you combine it with other things (like a high dose B-Complex), you're unlikely to run into trouble. I do take a more customised approach but I'm not convinced its absolutely necessary for everyone to do so. For most people, a decent supermarket multi with most nutrients at the RDA should be fine.

I agree with Jade_S on the topic of Folic Acid, I think there is a lot of scaremongering about it from the alternative health and supplement industry.

I say this everytime but bears repeating, a supplement cant make up for or replace a poor diet, the rest of the diet should be optimal first, then a multi or custom supplement routine can be helpful as insurance or to complement the diet, giving additional nutrients which you know you don't get enough of, or don't absorb so well, via diet tools like Cronometer and/or blood tests.

[Technoid in reply to Technoid]

Extracted section of the folate/B12 paper:

"It is hypothesized that exposure to excess folic acid (via supplements and fortified foods) causes exacerbation of vitamin B-12 deficiency by binding to folic acid receptors (FR; red triangles) in the bone marrow and the renal proximal tubule cells. This leads to diversion of the limited supply of serum TC-B12 (depicted by thick black arrows) to the bone marrow to support folic acid–mediated hematopoiesis and reticulocyte formation, or into the urine by possibly interfering with TC-B12 uptake via the megalin/cubilin/amnionless receptor complex in the renal proximal tubule cells or by some other mechanism yet to be elucidated. The TC-B12 is diverted away from other tissues (e.g., liver and brain; depicted by thin dashed arrows). This leads to accentuated elevations in Hcy and MMA concentrations in serum (also depicted by thick black arrows) and exacerbation of neurodegeneration"

[Technoid in reply to Technoid]

I didnt completely understand that either but I picked up from it that excess folate might endanger B12. Certainly it is just a hypothesis right now but it seems to have some possible mechanistic explanations and some limited amount of suggestive observational evidence - enough to make me fairly relieved that I don't supplement folate at all (I get 1mg from diet (2.5x RDA) so it would be pointless to supplement on top of that).

[WiscGuy in reply to jade_s]

Sorry, Jade, I don't recall seeing anything one way or another on this topic.

[WiscGuy in reply to jade_s]

Jade, another quick thought... At least one poster on another forum, due in no small part to the things you already mentioned, recommends staying away from multivitamins, instead using testing to select individual vitamins, which can be selected for chemical composition, dose size, etc.

[jade_s in reply to WiscGuy]

Thanks WiscGuy! I do agree with that in general But in terms of Bs i'm not sure. Just read it again today in a few medical websites or maybe articles (i forgot to save them off). Will keep searching.

[WiscGuy in reply to jade_s]

Actually, in regard to B-complex, the B-complex I take contains folic acid, and the opinion offered was that I find a better-quality B-complex that had a better folate. One suggested was this one:

amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00HST91...

[jade_s in reply to WiscGuy]

The thyroid group likes that one too.

I think the anti-folic acid thing is a bit overblown. Plenty of people, even those with the common mthfr mutations from what i understand do fine on it. Just like people malign cyanocobalamin but many do just fine on that as well.

I've also done very well on folic acid for over 6 years. Only very recently i've had to add in some folinic or methylfolate lozenges, so now i take half folic & half folinic. Too much of the active forms makes me jittery. I also can't absorb any folic acid tablets with cellulose, so that limits my options.

To each their own.

[jade_s in reply to WiscGuy]

Just found this very interesting mega-review of B vitamins.

B Vitamins and the Brain: Mechanisms, Dose and Efficacy—A Review ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Of note " in one study supplementation with folic acid also significantly increased the proportion of participants with riboflavin deficiency [72]."

He also discusses how the other B's besides b12, b9, and b6 may be involved with homocysteine.

Disclaimer, he was funded by a vitamin company.

Narwhal10 have you seen this paper?

[WiscGuy in reply to jade_s]

Very interesting. I will have to read it when I have a bit more time. Thanks for posting!

[Narwhal10 in reply to jade_s]

😂🤣

It was Figure 1 that I am knocking out words such as ‘succinate’ and ‘alpha keto butyrate’ . So, our community getting a better understanding of the why we also need THIamine (B1) riboFLAVIN (B2) etc as well.

The paper discusses evolution, (thank you Mr Darwin, sir) ‘the case of humans and our close primate relatives, our inability to synthesise vitamin C is due to a mutation in the gene’ .

Plus, really importantly, to EVERYONE, figure 1. Please look at :-

1) NADH.

2) ATP.

3) FADH2

4) NADH.

You don’t have to know or understand anything about these but compared to a battery, they are our how we get our voltage. Our POWER.

Wind bines in the sea at sunset.

[Narwhal10]

Hi 3rdNettydoon,

Good you are taking a multivitamin every day. Do you find some benefit ?

I take my vitamins, minerals and some building blocks of protein separately because I know me.

It’s a very good question. I think reading labels are the key and using the proper names helps. So let’s go for the B complex

B1 - Thiamine

B2 - Riboflavin

B3 - Niacin

B5 - pantothenic acid

B6 - pyridoxine (pie re dock zeen)

B9 - folate

B12 - in whatever formula your particular is Methylcobalamin, Adenosylcobalamin.

Magnesium is super important. I take magnesium threonate as it can be used in the brain.

I am currently working on a post which will have a simple diagram of what goes on at cell level. Long fancy names of ‘stuff’ will be removed. People can understand that’s why I need riboflavin (B2).

😘

[Mixteca in reply to Narwhal10]

Look forward to reading that, thank you Narwhal10.

[3rdNettydoon in reply to Narwhal10]

ThatThat willwill bebe interestinginteresting.

[3rdNettydoon in reply to Narwhal10]

I thought I was feeling some benefit but i have become tired again. I getout of bed but seem not to waken up properly until midmid afternoon.

[Sunshine1932]

I take a multivitamin and B complex everyday but I use Together vitamins that are NON synthetic and designed for those wanting to live a cleaner life or to give those not eating clean a good boost. I have not had any increased symptoms on this regime.

Happy weekend all ❤️ 💙

[MindfulSquirrel]

I take this one because it doesn’t have B6.

pelvicrelief.co.uk/products...

During and either side of my loading injections I took some melatonin pills at night which had 10mg of B6 in them, and now I’ve gone back to taking an Evening Primrose supplement which has a much smaller amount of B6 in it.

I also take extra folic acid (400mcg now my loading injections are over, higher on advice during).

[WhyAmISoTired]

On the thyroid forum people swear by Thorne or Igennus

[Bellabab]

I take a Centrum Advance 50+ multivitamin daily. Also inject 1mg B12 every other day and because of that take 5mg of folic acid daily to ensure B9 folate is enough for the B12 to work. Thats because they work hand in glove together. So if I reduce my B12 injections I would reduce the folic acid as well.

[WIZARD6787]

My personal research lead me to take Simple Supplements in lieu of any B-complex .

[helvella]

You might care to have a quick read of my own blog post about vitamin B6. (Or you might not! )

helvella - Vitamers of Vitamin B6

Some time ago, I mentioned that the form in which we take vitamin B6 is important. I think I linked to this paper:

helvella.blogspot.com/p/hel...

[Oneash]

I've started taking moringa powder recently, as a food supplement, as I'd rather get what my body needs from food, rather than synthetic sources. I certainly feel brighter in the morning than I have in ages. It's best mixed in with something savory.