This article explains so well about B12 being malabsorbed; may not always be PA; could be H Pylori or other things. Explains everything really well. I have read: 'Could it be B12?' by Sally M. Pacholok and Jeffrey J. Stuart and it reflects similar things. Also says how sublingual is great and you don't therefore necessarily need injections. How methylcobalamin is one of the better forms (but not cyanocobalamin).
I still have a concern that this article and 'Could it be B12?': both state that there are no side effects to high doses. I am not medically qualified but I took a high dose once and instantly felt as if my BP had risen. A Functional Medicine Practitioner whom I spoke with said that high doses can cause raised BP etc, so caution needed and supervision.**
Hi I don't, my B12 is on the low side of the normal range but GP needing other symptoms before checking for PA. I thought it interesting that other factors can affect absorption of B12. I get your point that Methyl/cyano can affect people differently. I'm not sure she's saying don't have the injections ever, more that sub-lingual liquid or spray is a viable option (I use these and symptoms improved). I know people go to their Doctor and will benefit from that
Personally, and I believe like many, I find that sublingual just is not absorbed except with absolutely massive doses. I mean 25000 micrograms a day. Some find it better to spread that out but my preferred way is a single dose. At least that way I can remember to take it. I only use sublingual when injection not available. That's because of the sickly taste of sorbitol and that it affects my digestive problems.
which oral did you try? At least one study says cyanocobalamin is better than methyl. I took methyl and had continuing symptoms (and discontinuing for even a few hours made them much worse). Haven't tried Cyanocobalamin, but my wife is taking 1000mcg/day and seems fine. I am on cyanocobalamin SI everyday but low dose (80mcg/day). Can you guide me, as to what to expect on daily SI injections, as I just started?
I took 3000 mcg/day of cyano and it didn't do anything. in fact I even stepped down to 1000 mcg/day because the 3K was giving me problems. I'm just bewildered how the oral can help if I eat 100 g of protein (400g of meat) / day and still end up depleated.
I am open to trying oral in conjunction with the shots, but definately will never be able to give up the shots. I tried spacing them out because of the acne just last week and am symptomatic. Perhaps some oral may help fill the gaps.
I have to eat meat because i'm pre-diabetic and animal protein works best for me. I admire those that can live w/o it.
from what I understand, 3000mcg will get only 30mcg into the body and 1000mcg around 13mcg. Also, it appears that smaller-dose Cyano takes time to work. How much are you taking as shots/day? Acne is certainly one side-effect of heavy injections. Another is skin rashes. I had no skin rashes only on a dose of around 50mcg/day SI, anything more causes it, so I plan to reduce it to that level slowly.
On the 3000mcg to 30, that makes sense. I was doing 1.5 MG per day sometimes 2MG. did very well on the 2MG, except it would keep me awake and I was getting acne. Aside from the acne, That version of b12 gave me the best results and allowed me to exercise a lot. Now, I've switched to the canadian b12 and it's not as effective for me. Better than nothing. It's cheap and the acne did back off a little; I'm not sure if the acne is b12 or hormones. who knows. and there is NO way to really test hormones. I tried, but then they just wanted to put me on hormones which I don't want to do all for the sake of acne. I'm trying high dosing of panthonic acid. And I've been meaning to go back to the ACNE threads here and see what people have said about brands of b12 that didn't encourage acne.
Now that I have gone back to 1 MG of the canadian and mistakenly tried to back off to every other day I now have back pain and tight muscles again. the first signs i get when I back off on b12. It typically takes about 1 week to show up.
thanks for the replies. I get acne on B12 too, but I think it is also a sign that it is working. I would take acne any day compared to all the other nasty B12 deficiency symptoms. And yes, keeping awake at night is another side-effect. I think it may be better if the SI is in morning and not at night, but don't know...
A note on high BP: just been called in to my surgery to have my BP checked as the last two times I had it taken since upping my B12 SI to EOD it was raised. I've always had higher than average BP but now it is significantly higher. I will now monitor with a home BP monitor. It could be nothing to do with increased B12 but worth finding out. Life is one long health experiment!!!
I believe it's the higher doses (whatever that means as the higher doses cross a big range) taken in one go that can affect BP (I think B vitamins are energising). All I know is I happily took a dropper full of a big dose and definitely felt unwell. Recently to up my B12 levels, I used a 1ml plastic syringe and took daily divided doses.
Yes. I feel very much better when I inject. There is an unevidenced suggestion that frequent B12 can up BP. It's all part of the mix and the complexity.
A further reply to the article above. Had a gastroscopy procedure two weeks ago and it confirmed Hpylori. Now having the awful dual antibiotic sledgehammer plus an H2 Blocker. I won't take PPIs ever again. The gastroscopy also showed fundic polyps that are a side effect of PPIs. It's encouraging to know that these can decrease in size with time. But it also showed Hpylori which may or may not have a bearing on B12 absorption. However, I had to have an Hpylori test before the gastroscopy and it showed a negative result. So not reassuring re testing and test accuracy.
Thanks for your comment. The figure I've seen for developed countries is now 30%, much higher in the developing world, perhaps more than 70%. That number has declined over time as in this country it was perhaps over 50% a few decades ago. As I'm a product of a few decades ago I was part of that over 50%. I'm in my 70s. It's believed that it is often contracted in childhood and can be accommodated until you age and then it becomes a problem. More research needed for it's own sake and also if it is a contributory factor for B12D /atrophic gastritis PA.
I had H Pylori. That's the leading cause of ulcers and probably a bunch of other problems, so it would be good to get rid of that. I too am not confident in any of the tests except the scope, but I couldn't get them to scope me after taking the medication to confirm. Dang, I should check my last scope that I did for b12 deficiency and see if they checked for H Pylori. I'll be mad if they didn't while they were in there.
As I understand, the amount of B12 stored is only sufficient to replace the amount lost for that long.
The entero-hepatic recirculation means that the stored B12 only has to add about 3 micrograms a day. But we only lose that little when the entero-hepatic recirculation is working well. If it breaks down, we can get through any stored B12 in a very short time.
Three years at 3 micrograms a day is 3285 micrograms.
Maybe we actually use, say, 50 micrograms a day, of which 47 micrograms is recirculated.
Break that, and it would only last about 65 days.And it is broken in those with Pernicious Anaemia.
ABSOLUTELY. it takes 3-4 years minimum (as a strict vegan) to become depleted and as far as the medical journals state, the only way to get depleted faster is by huffing nitrous oxide regularly, then it's a matter of months. There may be other edge cases like medications that may also deplete, such as metforman. however, medical journals don't state if and how much that medication acellerates the problem.
That 3-4 year span coincides with my experience. I went back and looked at my blood tests over the years and sure enough my levels were slowly lowering over a 4-5 year span. I am a heavy meat eater and don't take any medications.
As I understand this is why it takes so long to feel better. For 1, the cells must have time to regenerate and 2, the stores need to be repleted. Technoid and others that have done deep dives, feel free to pitch in.
However, I gave up trying to understand it all as, in the end, all I really need to know is that I take b12 injections and get results. testing is useless as it becomes inaccurate once injections are started and to get accurate results, the shots must be stopped for so long.
However, it is useful to try and rule out and fix the easy things such as h-pylori for sure.
The timeline sounds about right to me. When I first reduced my B12 dosage, it took about 5 years to see any symptoms that I could recognise. In retrospect I was taking a B12 amount weekly that would have covered approx 1-3 days so I was deficient roughly 4 days a week. Thus it it took a bit longer for me to see symptoms appear.
An 'interesting read', but any site that drops you into a menu that introduces you to 'Clinic and Shop' aimed at selling you something needs treating with a degree of caution. the claim that
"The first is that you absolutely don't need Vitamin B12 Shots EVER!!"
is certainly open to question! There are cases where alternatives to injection work, but they certainly don't work for everyone, do they?
Hi yes, I agree. I posted it for other options and I thought it also gave a broader picture of B12 problems. We all have to check things out - what feels right for us
Regarding the part of the original post inquiring about B12 and high blood pressure:
My blood pressure had been steadily rising over the past couple of years. For decades my blood pressure had been ~120/80. The upper, systolic number rose over time to 155 and more.
Using Google Scholar, I searched the research databases for B12 and blood pressure. I found many articles correlating B12 and low blood pressure, but nothing at all correlating B12 and high blood pressure.
For illustration, here is the results of one (of many) sets of search terms:
I inject frequently and check blood pressure at rest frequently - its still in a good healthy range if I haven't recently woken up my systems. Any injection or prick from a needle will result in a small release of adrenaline as your body alert system prepares to act as its aware that something not normal is happening. That will raise you blood pressure a little and its not a problem as it will soon drop back again.
Sounds plausible. I've never heard of oral or injected B12 raising blood pressure in any clinically significant way. Just another thing to not worry about imho.
My BP is now in the normal range after six months of SI EOD. It had been significantly higher for several years, I guess as my B12 became more and more depleted.
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