It is not all in my head.

[WIZARD6787]

If I take B6 Vitamin Pyridoxal 5 Phosphate 25 mg with water twice a day and B12 hydroxocobalamin subcutaneously 1 mg three times a day then symptoms known to be experienced with B12 deficiency are dramatically are reduced. If I only take B12 than symptoms become severe.

The most noticeable and therefore measurable is pain from peripheral neurotherapy. All other symptoms become more severe.

In 5 days the symptoms are definitely more severe and then get exponentially worse daily. When B6 is again administered symptoms return to former levels in 5 days.

2022 Professional data sheet which includes information on amounts and duration of B6 taken that are known to have an adverse effect and not the common concept that ‘B6 bad’:

ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/V...

2017 Information on preferred form of B6 ;

Toxicol In Vitro . 2017 Oct;44:206-212.

doi: 10.1016/j.tiv.2017.07.009. Epub 2017 Jul 14.

The vitamin B6 paradox: Supplementation with high concentrations of pyridoxine leads to decreased vitamin B6 function

Misha F Vrolijk 1 , Antoon Opperhuizen 2 , Eugène H J M Jansen 3 , Geja J Hageman 4 , Aalt Bast 4 , Guido R M M Haenen 4

• PMID: 28716455

• DOI: 10.1016/j.tiv.2017.07.009

Abstract

Vitamin B6 is a water-soluble vitamin that functions as a coenzyme in many reactions involved in amino acid, carbohydrates and lipid metabolism. Since 2014, >50 cases of sensory neuronal pain due to vitamin B6 supplementation were reported. Up to now, the mechanism of this toxicity is enigmatic and the contribution of the various B6 vitamers to this toxicity is largely unknown. In the present study, the neurotoxicity of the different forms of vitamin B6 is tested on SHSY5Y and CaCo-2 cells. Cells were exposed to pyridoxine, pyridoxamine, pyridoxal, pyridoxal-5-phosphate or pyridoxamine-5-phosphate for 24h, after which cell viability was measured using the MTT assay. The expression of Bax and caspase-8 was tested after the 24h exposure. The effect of the vitamers on two pyridoxal-5-phosphate dependent enzymes was also tested. Pyridoxine induced cell death in a concentration-dependent way in SHSY5Y cells. The other vitamers did not affect cell viability. Pyridoxine significantly increased the expression of Bax and caspase-8. Moreover, both pyridoxal-5-phosphate dependent enzymes were inhibited by pyridoxine. In conclusion, the present study indicates that the neuropathy observed after taking a relatively high dose of vitamin B6 supplements is due to pyridoxine. The inactive form pyridoxine competitively inhibits the active pyridoxal-5'-phosphate. Consequently, symptoms of vitamin B6 supplementation are similar to those of vitamin B6 deficiency.

[Sleepybunny]

Hi Wizard,

I found an interesting article when I searched for "Morton's Foot P5P"

Morton's foot is a where the second toe is longer than the big toe.

P5P means pyridoxal 5'-phosphate.

[WIZARD6787 in reply to Sleepybunny]

Thank you for that. The article mentions fatty liver disease. My liver levels now are within range since taking the B6. Physicians assumed I must have been a alcoholic and just wasn't admitting it. I have had four ounces of alcohol a year for the last 10 years.

[EllaNore in reply to WIZARD6787]

This is interesting. I have PA and I have fatty liver disease as well and I don't drink at all. Never have. If I have any alcohol it's the equivalent of two or three margaritas a year. But my feet hurt so bad that I hobble around and I can't walk further than a block and back. I worry about getting too far away from my house and not being able to get back. The pain really is excruciating.

So, you're saying that if you gave yourself three injections of B12 a day without the B6 your feet felt better? Once you give yourself b6 your feet started to hurt again?

I don't take any other B vitamins except for B12 once a day 1 ml. Lately, I've been experimenting and giving myself 2ml, directly into the leg that hurts the most with the foot that hurts the most. And I swear a double dose of B12 seems to be helping a little, but it is still debilitating and I sure would like to know what to do about it.

If anyone has any other treatments or suggestions that helps neuropathy, I would really appreciate it.

My insurance doesn't cover expensive neuropathy treatment. And I worry about spending cash money on a treatment that may just be a scam? I don't know if I can trust these neuropathy clinics. If they could help neuropathy why are we all suffering so much from it? My neuropathy goes all the way up my left leg from my foot. And up to my knee on my right leg and foot. The left is considerably worse than the right.

I even bought one of those iwalk 3.0 braces, like a pirate leg, so I could walk hands-free. Because my hands hurt so much to use a cane or crutches and I just don't have the strength to use them. and using canes and crutches makes other areas of my body hurt. I would do anything not to dread having to walk. Thanks for any suggestions and posting this.

[WIZARD6787 in reply to EllaNore]

Hey Ellanore,

My information about B6 other than the only form to use is Pyridoxal 5 Phosphate comes from the USA. B6 deficiency is rare although those than do diagnose it tend to write it may be rarely diagnosed. It is seldom diagnosed without another deficiency of either folic acid or B12.

I used SL hydroxocobalamin as the pain was to severe with IM.

Before I started administering B12 I was in debilitating pain. Staring to inject B12 made it much worse. I injected 80 mg B6 IM and the pain diminished in hours.

There is a test for B6 but it is not reliable pretty much if the test shows you are deficient than you are, if it does not than you still may be deficient. It is often written that the test is only accurate for people that are in good health.

It is most often diagnosed clinically which as I understand means administer B6 and see of there is improvement. In the USA they administer 500mg a day until symptoms improve than 30mg a day orally to start than adjust from there.

At first I injected 30 mg a day as I was not comfortable doing more. I now take 25 mg twice a day oral liquid in water. and as soon as things settle out I will increase to see what happens.

>>So, you're saying that if you gave yourself three injections of B12 a day without the B6 your feet felt better? Once you give yourself b6 your feet started to hurt again? No I am saying the opposite.

In this moment if I had to choose between B12 and B6 for a month I would choose B6.

You might ask your GP for a prescription of B6 to see how that effects your liver function and see if it helps with the pain. Or you could choose to do a trial of some form of B6 on your own and see if it helps over time.

It was just in the last 4 months that I understood the importance of B6 to me.

[EllaNore in reply to WIZARD6787]

Thank you so much wizard 6787. I don't think I've had my B6 tested. I wonder if I just bought some low dose B6 liquid and tried it to see if I feel better if that works work. I am in the US so this information is great for me. I'm going to look back on my records and see if I have any B6 blood test done. I wonder what it's called on a lab test. I may have had it tested and just didn't know what it was called. I'm pretty desperate to find some kind of help for my feet. I really appreciate this post and your information. I hope you're doing well now and that you're getting it all under control. Sounds like by trial and error. Which is what I think we all do.🙂

[WIZARD6787 in reply to EllaNore]

I actually work clinically. I reach a rational decision about what to try next and then I try it, measure it and adjust. In hindsight I have been timid all along. I wish I had gone with higher doses not low doses.

It was helpful when I discovered I could get good data reducing a dose for a week. I had in my mind that it would be a month or more before I could notice any difference.

[EllaNore in reply to WIZARD6787]

Thanks Okay I bought a 50 mg bottle and took one so I will see how this goes. And I don't know if I can even absorb it. So I'm going to give it a try. But that's how I do things as well I make a rational decision I do some testing do some experimenting. Thanks for all your help.

[Fighterb12 in reply to EllaNore]

you need to have folate up in the teens for B12 to work as it’s a co factor ,at very least a B complex to support your injections .also get your vit D checked as majority are low with B12 deficiency /PA .magnesium is also key .

[EllaNore in reply to Fighterb12]

Thanks fighter12. I had all of that tested and don't seem to need any thing but D3. I take that every Wednesday. My Folate is >24 so it is actually high. I tried to take a low dose Folate and it made me not feel well at all. Very Shakey and just overall felt terrible. All my other blood work is pretty good. The high folate is weird.

[WIZARD6787 in reply to Fighterb12]

Thank you for that. Sometimes get myopic in my writing. It's a sympothy. B12 is the frontman.

[Marlboro123 in reply to Sleepybunny]

I thought my feet looked funny. Now i know i have Morton's foot. I think i need to check out p5p now.

[B12life]

WIZARD6787, this is very good information. What form of B6 is good then?

Is it pyridoxal-5′-phosphate?

This is what I have been taking for a few months now and I've had good results with it.

[WIZARD6787 in reply to B12life]

Yes P5 P is thought to be more effective and other forms can cause side effects.

[WIZARD6787 in reply to B12life]

Good results in general or is there something or things specific?

[B12life in reply to WIZARD6787]

well better mental clarity and energy w/o side effects. Then again the primary problem is b12 deficiency and then b1, so those have been the most help.

This information that you put out about b6 ids great! I read it way back and forgot about it! And I'm not sure I picked up the fact that P5P is not just more bioavailable but avoids the side effects you referenced in the article. Great info!

I only supplement nutrients I think I need and do not take a multivitamin. And each one I take I look up what the bioavailable version is, dosage and possibility of any of toxicity. NIH is usually my source, but I'll reference anything backed by science.

[WIZARD6787 in reply to B12life]

Thank you for your reply. Especially good results as being evaluated with regards to 'better mental clarity and energy w/o side effects'. I was floundering with symptoms for so long I sometimes get away from my end goal is how I experience life.

When I first wrote about my experience with B6 I did not know about P5P. I think it was Helliva who provided that valuable info in response to my post.

The only taking what supplements are needed is a credible approach. I have chosen to take a different approach. It came from my concept that I do not have to be perfect I only have to come close enough and my body can adapt well. That and I determined that what is known about nutritional requirements of the human body is from a myopic perspective which is valuable but the applied science is pseudo science practiced with unjustified confidence as all pseudo science is practiced.

This lead me to the idea that supplements designed for the autism which is neurological might be the most complete supplement and based on the most robust research as it is well funded. It is also most about children and I thought this would be a deterrent to over supplementation or a risky supplementation because poisoning children would be more likely prosecuted. Pretty much they could do a better job of researching than I would be able to do.

I researched two and one contained lithium which I see as a backdoor way to medicate. The second "Simple Spectrum" seems to cover most supplements so I am doing a month long trial of that. Or as I call "Simple Spectrum" the kitchen sink of supplements. 😀

I did look at supplements designed for cancer treatment as that is well funded. That research is very myopic.

I use the concept that essential vitamins and minerals means that without any one of them you will die and none is more important than the other. B12 is unique only in that is more well known than you can ingest it and not have it available to keep the body alive.

"No scientific basis" in medicine means no reliable blood test or image so therefore no evidence.