Dairy: Dr Laurie Miscley says we pwp... - Parkinson's Movement

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Dairy

bassofspades
bassofspades

Dr Laurie Miscley says we pwp should avoid dairy. Can anybody give me straight answer why?

73 Replies
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And does that mean all milk products or just lactose?

GymBag
GymBag in reply to bassofspades

Nobody eats more dairy than me and look at how great I am .

MMMMMMM might be something too it.

If I recall correctly:

1) There were already studies showing a correlation between the consumption of animal fats and an increased likelihood of developing Parkinson's disease.

2) Dr. Laurie Mischley conducted a study following PWP's diets, and their rates of Parkinson's disease progression. She found that the consumption of animal fats and dairy were associated with faster Parkinson's disease progression.

I'm sure there are some ideas about why these diets may be problematic. I suspect it has more to do with animal fat (and milk fat) than anything to do with lactose.

bcowart
bcowart in reply to ElliotGreen

Remember, eating higher on the food chain usually means putting concentrated fat-soluble pesticides into your body. Some pesticides are water-soluble and they wash out of the animal as the animal drinks water and urinates, etc. But the fat-soluble pesticides accumulate in animals’ fatty tissues. When we eat that meat, we get a higher concentration of pesticides than if I we ate the plants they ate. So aside from being energy inefficient and actually being a major contributor to global warming, eating animal meat probably is bad for Parkinson’s, considering research showing a connection between pesticides and Parkinson’s.

OK. So the question seems to be more about dairy products. Of course, like many PDers, I have wondered about this a lot myself. Dairy has lots of goodies in it like calcium and vitamins of various kinds. I try to go for goat milk Kefir — it has probiotics as well as the other good things plus I don’t have to worry about the lactose issue.

bepo
bepo in reply to bcowart

What about organic, pasture raised, pastured finished animals? What about A-2 dairy?

bassofspades
bassofspades in reply to bepo

And grass fed!

Low fat dairy consumption has been found to be associated with higher rates of PD, not high fat:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Thanks for that citation. A couple of years ago, somebody had warned me about skim milk in particular. But I never found the reference.

That contrasts a bit with Dr. Laurie Mischley's findings.

hindawi.com/journals/omcl/2...

"Foods associated with the reduced rate of PD progression included fresh vegetables, fresh fruit, nuts and seeds, nonfried fish, olive oil, wine, coconut oil, fresh herbs, and spices (P < 0 05). Foods associated with more rapid PD progression include canned fruits and vegetables, diet and nondiet soda, fried foods, beef, ice cream, yogurt, and cheese (P < 0 05)."

Cheese too ?

Dang.

Maybe you can still have butter? I'm still going to drink Yakult (tiny little shots, very thin consistency). Seems to help a bit with sleep and anxiety.

Buckholt
Buckholt in reply to ElliotGreen

I do however worry about the list of foods and the Association between dietary practices and Parkinson’s disease progression. To my mind, dietary practices are often a matter of education, class and income and those enjoying the most fresh veg, fish and olive oil, may be doing well not only because of what they’re eating, but because their education and income levels permit time for better self care, medical support and personal research of the condition. This group may well be more likely to have gym memberships, personal trainers and good social support.

People eating lots of fried food and diet soda may be doing badly, not because of what they eat, but it may have more to do with the lifestyle generally and socioeconomic disadvantages.

Nevertheless, I now take lactose free milk and have reduced carbs dramatically. You’ve got to try something!?

AmyLindy
AmyLindy in reply to ElliotGreen

Concur

Yes we used to eat a lot of cheese but not now. Maybe the pesticides or artificial feed they eat? Maybe it just makes you tend towards obesity which is bad. Or what it is teamed with

Like pizza, toasted sandwiches, pasta?

MarionP
MarionP in reply to LAJ12345

A lot of these things sort of hang together, making isolating any one or two of them rather difficult when you aren't controlling many co-factors nor have a large number of subjects, controls, environments, pre-condition conditions, randomization.....but for what its worth seems what she's suggesting sounds a lot like meditteranean diet.

Dairy products tend to be inflammatory (especially casein) which increases oxidative stress which may worsen PD symptoms. There has been a modest association of elevated risk of PD and dairy consumption.

If you read enough on the topic it seems that most people, not just those with PD, would be better off eliminating dairy from their diet.

some possibilities:

- dairy consumption lowers uric acid levels and uric acid is the main scavenger of peroxynitrite ( a reactive nitrogen species)

- d-galactose causes neurological damage and is used to induce accelerated brain aging in animal models

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

- leucine is an mTOR activator and is abundant in dairy

To answer your question directly Bass, she said she didn’t know why..

pdpatient
pdpatient in reply to jeeves19

Jeeves, I think I have a good clue now. I completely stopped milk and milk based products about a month ago after observing a pattern over the past few years. My symptom control has increased dramatically. And because I live in America where 95 percent of the milk is highly processed and reconstituted , I suspected that this had a correlation to my worsening Parkinson's symptoms. With enormous difficulty, I stopped drinking any milk and believe me, it is tough for a crazed milk lover such as me!

If you are curious, here's a start:

milk.procon.org/how-milk-ge...

I

jeeves19
jeeves19 in reply to pdpatient

God, I love it too! Might try to get off it if you've had some good results. My meds haven't worked well today and it's probably due to milk smoothie and milk on my cereals : (

laglag
laglag in reply to jeeves19

I switched to Coconut/ Almond milk.

pdpatient
pdpatient in reply to jeeves19

Great. Just a few days will get you amazing results. Part of it also due to a high protein content in American milk. I have puzzled over why I always feel better when I am in Europe or Asia and the milk there is unbelievably far superior than the milk here. Ever wonder how the milk in the stores always have a guaranteed, fixed protein content and fat content in every single gallon or part there of? Because it is all artificially mase so!!

USA is corn fed cows, Europe is grass fed

So far I found one study that the researcher said that no one should change their diet because of findings that low fat milk increased risk . The people who consumed high fat milk did not share the increased incidence of PD.

I am finding many studies now saying that milk fats (butter fat) are much healthier than margarine especially hydrogenated margarine and a couple saying that butter fat may actually help the heart.

We have seen this type of study many times.

They pick say 1000 people in their 40,s and put them in categories, who eats butter, who smokes , who sleeps in pajamas and then they look at them again 20 and 30 years later. The normal rate of PD is compared with the people in the categories. We have previously learned from these studies that people who smoke , or eat chocolate or drink red wine or in fact any alcohol are less likely to get PD.

Apparently then , I am less likely to get PD , I drink whole milk 3.25%, smoke, eat chocolate and a bit of red wine, and a few beer but inexplicably I got PD anyway . After brief consideration ( many times) I have retained my opinion that it is all hooowie.

ChrisWF
ChrisWF in reply to GymBag

There was a thread here recently about the optimwl diet for PD (or maybe it was the optimal diet for avoiding PD). It was very bland and boring and the first comment was words to the effect of "not surprised. The mice probably committed suicide before they developed PD" 😂

Vegetarianism never hurts. Can be a very good thing from a number of perspectives.

WinnieThePoo
WinnieThePoo in reply to MarionP

Most vegetarians eat dairy

dairy contains casomorphin that tends to slow down metabolism

Interestingly you talk to those who have managed to reverse their symptoms to various degrees and they all say everything in moderation.

And do not note any specific diets or weird stuff, nutrition is def important however the road to any recovery is so much more

Just my 2 cents

Despe
Despe in reply to AaronS

". . .everything in moderation. . ."

EXACTLY! Hippocrates said "Everything in moderation." That's my motto.

Its attributed to 'Molecular Mimicry'.

Of interest 26 minute mark and forward:

youtu.be/fmZdI8jinIw

In my personal experience dairy products are highly correlated to my off periods. I thought it simply interferes with ldopa absorption.

rescuema
rescuema in reply to felixned

Yes, the protein content in dairy/milk can affect l-dopa absorption.

healthunlocked.com/parkinso...

Bass

For me life without dairy is easier.

Food isn’t a religion. You should try and see the results. Trial and error.

Foods that make you agile is good for you and those make you feel dull should avoid.

Eat consciously.

Kia

bassofspades
bassofspades in reply to Kia17

Fasting makes it easier...just eat nothing all day until 20 hrs go by, then make one wise choice.

I always love to hear from you!

I agree with you about fasting.

“ Autophagy process initiates in humans after 18-20 hours of fasting, with maximal benefits occurring once the 48–72 hour mark has been reached”.

bassofspades
bassofspades in reply to Kia17

The most I've done so far was 36 hours. Usually I do 20. I try to do 4 days a week.

I’ve reduced carbs significantly and do intermittent fasting, but have lost weight. This is something to be aware of!

I could stand to lose 30 lbs!

Xenos
Xenos in reply to Kia17

Interesting.

Could you give the reference(s) of publications about these figures. Looks important to me. I only have studies with mice/rats.

I hear that GHEE is good though.

Ghee is my favourite food. I take a tsp every morning.

Since someone noted some of my contributions were just purely anecdotal, I would like to say they were right. Here goes anyway, by many people standards I have been a healthy eater all my life. I have never been a heavy cheese eater and when the boys were downing several glasses of milk a day, I may not have more than a splash on my All Bran. As a teen, my mom got me onto honey and brewer’s yeast part of the “Tiger’s Milk” recipe from health food expert of the 70’s, Adele Davis. I naturally intermittently fast.

All that being said I look healthy from the outside, I have always been on the cutting edge of “healthy” eating, I have exercised my entire life and yet, I still have this damned disease!

Anecdotal again, but, I have found the uptake of the C/l was affected by my intake of protein rich food. So I keep a wide birth of no food around my dosing.

Cheers everyone! I know everyone’s journey is unique.

Anecdotes are pretty much all we got, science only works on mice!

I too have always taken care of myself to a greater extent than average, and although you and I got the disease anyway, i can't imagine how much worse we would be if we didn't take such diligence!

MarionP
MarionP in reply to bassofspades

Wouldn't you feel just lousy when science eventually proves that none of that ever mattered, being simply a genetic predisposition to select for masochism?

bassofspades
bassofspades in reply to MarionP

Buttrers bad eat margarine

Margarine bad eat butter

Eggs bad don't eat eggs

Egg whites ok yolk bad

Yolks ok egg whites bad

Milk does a body good

Milk bad

Cheese bad

Cheese ok, keto!!!!

All dairy bad

I'm just going 2 evolve and grow leaves so i can just do photosynthesis.

MarionP
MarionP in reply to bassofspades

Hey Bass, you know: Eggs are fine, butter is fine, the problem is sugar. Learn about the biochemistry of sugar, easy if you have a bit of stick-to-it attitude and go online and think critically. It's the sugar. When excess sugar gets together with anything, horrible things happen (human biochemistry terms that is). Avoid the sugar and artificially hydrogenated oils, and you will do just fine with natural oils that have not been hydrogenated by industry...this is well settled now. Sugar sugar sugar.

You don't have to avoid all sugar. No. Sugar in your tea is fine. Sugar in your cornflakes is fine. Sugar in your chocolate is great. Sweet fruits are fine. But EXCESS sugar, and sugar in processed foods is deadly. Combined with Hydrogenated oils in your food is really deadly. No, the bigger thing is to eliminate industrially hydrogenated oils, eliminated excessively processed foods, and cut down the sugar (it is just fine to use, for example, diet ginger ale, diet soda, won't hurt you a bit unless it has aspartame that can make people itch and have hives because aspartame is a neuro-stimulant ), and just use sugar where you are making the thing, like tea or coffee, and in cooking, to taste, and you will be just fine;;; and you CAN do it to taste, that's not excessive.

Never have fruit juice without "giving back the sugar" somewhere to even the scales.

Never have liquids that are commercially made of sugar.

Get used to fruit, and their sugars in naturally single serving portions, i.e., eat an orange, eat an apple, eat a mango, etc. Use fruits in place of commercially sweetened foods. Get a blender. Raisins are fantastic. Put raisins in your peanut butter sandwich. Great stuff.

I know you can do it, because I did it, and I was raised on commercial sugars from a young toddler, addictive dependency sugar was practically in my genes. I'm still a sugar freak, but I get it in better ways and modified, and am quite happy, because I also learned the biochemistry that makes naturally saturated fats acceptable, because they aren't subjected to the horrible synergy that occurs when combined with commercial and industrial sugars.

Believe me, the horror to blame is the saturation of commercial sugars, not the naturally occurring fats in eggs, beef, pork, dairy, butter...though of course you want to get things like Smart Balance products in place of butters...taste fine.

You will be just fine. If you want to be convinced, become your own critical researcher online, you can do it. You will find out.

In the meantime, some people here have nothing to gain and are well disciplined to be critical and truth seeking scientific "prove it before you spout it" type people. Important to figure out who those people are, by taking a critical attitude. But it won't be their job to prove it to you, you are responsible and have responsibility to get your own proof, however, there is nothing to substitute for it and you are capable of it. Just substitute some of your serious attitude time in place of any sort of self-indulgence time and you will find you have what it takes and it won't even take very long. Just give up any self-indulgent attitudinal dependency in your thinking, nobody owes you your life, and it's time and effort well spent. So do it and believe you can do it, and you will have earned your continued survival and you will know it for a fact. Can't beat that kind of knowledge with a stick. True stuff. Really. And I'm actually trained to know that. Real science, not that quack bs you see so often masquerading as science. Nothing to gain from it either, as long as my betrothed and my cats and dog are well treated, I couldn't care less about whatever.

Meanwhile, and this is the coolest thing ever, they are now producing the basic proteins contained in meat that act like and shape up like and actually are meat, but the proteins are plant material. No reason to be vegetarian if you don't want to, no reason to avoid meat if you don't want to, at the molecular level this stuff is just exactly what animal muscle is and it tastes it and feels it but its plants. Amazing. Amazing. Look into it. Even the feel, the structure, is exactly the same as beef, pork, goat, snake, dog, cat, cow, buffalo, exactly. Yet it's plant, because it's the same as those animal proteins but made from plants, yet feels like meat, is meat. Amazing stuff. Start looking for it in lower and lower costs to the point it is competitive. No longer will Hindu's sacrifice their morals with this stuff. No longer will we need to pollute the planet to have a steak. No longer will religious people feel shame at thinking that you might be eating your brother, because you won't be. !!!!! Watch for it, it's just about to hit the mass markets. In the next year to three years or so. Totally vegan beefsteak, at competitive cost. None of the horrible earth-destroying pollution. Believe it!!!

And all of these things I spoke of are good for your nervous system, and relieves some of that nagging anxiety, which is a sneak-up killer, believe me, it's my professional field to know. It helps, perhaps palpably, to deal with it in this way.

Godiv
Godiv in reply to MarionP

Marion, do you think PWPs Crave sugar more than other folks? Or is that just me? I absolutely crave sugar and chocolate; It’s terrible and it seems to have gotten worse since diagnosis but it was bad before diagnosis too. Argh!

MarionP
MarionP in reply to Godiv

If you crave it what matter whether anybody else does? you battle it the same way you battle cigarettes or any other addictive or excess vise (spelled intentionally).

Godiv
Godiv in reply to MarionP

Good point, thanks!

pdpatient
pdpatient in reply to Godiv

Whether you picked your name from your favorite chocolate, Godiv, I am with you. 100 %.

I have a sweet tooth, the size of mount Everest.

MarionP, I hear you loud and clear, but sometimes the love of sugar feels like a hopeless drug addiction.

Godiv
Godiv in reply to pdpatient

You caught that LOL. Yes it is like a drug addiction. Very frustrating! Tell myself every day I’m not going to break down but I do. Sorry you’re dealing with it too. Ugh

ddmagee1
ddmagee1 in reply to MarionP

Extremely well written/expressed, and good advice and information! Too much sugar, sure can wreak havoc, with a person’s health, so your informative advice is relevant, for many of us, in this forum! Thanks for getting the word out, so to speak! My wife has insulin dependent diabetes! We have to be very careful, every day, because it can so easily, get out of control!

Her studies are all observational, which is problematic to begin with--association is NOT causation! To make matters worse, she doesn't separate out high fat/ low fat, butter, organic/fermented products like yogurt, cheeses...or for that matter french cheeses vs bright orange cheese food...etc. So what can you tell from that?

In her study she asks questions like: "do you routinely prepare food for others?" or: "Do you eat fruit and vegetables out of cans?" and then concludes: Preparing food for others is associated w/ better PD outcomes! Don't eat from cans! It is associated w/poor outcomes!

But I say: You have to already be in pretty good shape to prepare food for others, right? So the cart seems kinda before the horse. As for cans--fresh veggies are more expensive. We already know wealth is associated with better health care, and better heath care generally gets better results. (I guess you could say: Be wealthy! It is associated with better outcomes!)(My tongue is in my cheek, here)

My point is, the whole thing annoys me.

I'm IN her study, BTW. I eat keto, so heavy cream and butter, and full fat yogurt. The progression of my PD is pretty slow...for what that's worth :o)

bassofspades
bassofspades in reply to amykp

Myy thoughts exactly!

MarionP
MarionP in reply to amykp

Speaking of that, how do they get that orange color into cheese? And did anyone realize that ice cream consumption is associated with the murder rate?

amykp
amykp in reply to MarionP

Actually, I THINK the orange is annatto, which is natural. At any rate, it is probably the most natural thing about "cheese-food". (Which I'm not saying isn't tasty. It is, and I've eaten my fair share melted over a burger. But I'm not fooled into thinking it's good for me in any way)

Ah ha! I KNEW ice cream was dangerous! :o)

Nice:

Spurious Correlations.

tylervigen.com/spurious-cor...

MarionP
MarionP in reply to amykp

Just do the mediterranean diet. Taste great, fun to make, satisfying, just note that it is ok to eat enough to satisfy you, and because it is a lot to do with vegetables, it's really quite affordable too. Unless you live in Siberia, you can get the stuff these days and it doesn't take an arm and a leg.

amykp
amykp in reply to MarionP

Med diet won't get me into ketosis, which is my aim. Keto's not as easy I guess, but I'm used to it. We know dietary ketones protect mitochondria and are neuroprotective. I guess I'm just convinced that the diet actually slows PD progression--and not much else does right now.

The diet is worth it for me (actually kinda fun). Here are a couple articles, if you are interested:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

theparkinsonsplan.com/ketog...

MarionP
MarionP in reply to amykp

Let me check it out with my handlers at Mayo (neurology, cardiology, internal medicine, psychiatry, cancer).

amykp
amykp in reply to MarionP

Wow--I'd be super interested to find out what they have to say. My MDS just says, "Keto diet? Don't know much about it, but whatever you're doing, don't stop."

I would love to find a neurologist who knew something about keto and fasting. Who too a serious interest. (I've been on it for five years, since my diagnosis) Honestly, I would travel to see them.

Rosenmu
Rosenmu in reply to amykp

Dr Perlmutter encourages a Keto diet, I don't think he practices anymore but you can find videos and other sources on his website and Facebook page. He's doing a series of videos right now, Scienceofprevention.com on Alzheimers but much of what is discussed is also applicable to PD.

amykp
amykp in reply to Rosenmu

thanks!!!

I think everything in moderation with few exceptions....you dont want to have the cure be worse than the symptom so to speak...imo.......i cant live a proper life without cheese...(chuckle) hang tough ,,,cheers.

Bass

See this post please

healthunlocked.com/parkinso...

I did 6 months of Keto and AIP to reduce my inflammation, with no dairy except grass fed butter. I have been fighting with inflammation for over 5 years, I'm finally winning. CRP score this summer was lowest yet. I keep in mind what is recommended per clean Keto, AIP, Dr Mischley's findings and my Drs instructions for diet. I find plenty of variety and sometimes I don't bother I just put food in the face that is good for me. I do what I can, but even then,sometimes the bad guys like toxins find me. My Dr says if I can keep inflammation down and keep the fire from burning me up on the inside, I will be better for it. Dr Kharrazian also talks about avoiding dairy, the milk proteins are damaging to our gut, even the A2.

look on you tube for Dr Terry Wahles diet. i cant get the link to post sorry. hang tough.

I went without dairy for 2 days so far and noticed an overall, broad improvement in muscle control and anxiety. I know 2 days does not equal a trend but I am encouraged to keep going for it! This is in addition to 20 hrs of intermittent fasting 2 days in a row as well...

Last night I could hardly sleep because i had so much energy.

Today at work i assisted the most demanding surgeon with it a very difficult procedure. Normally working with this guy increases all of my symptoms a great deal , but today, during the 3 hours i worked with him, i was steady as a rock and cool as a cucumber.

5 days and still trending in the right direction !

Great! I bet it’s the IF over dairy free. IF effects me / many others the same way (energy/focus)

But ive been doing if for a year!

Rosenmu
Rosenmu in reply to bassofspades

Removing foods that cause sensitivities in our body can make a difference in many ways, I have an issue with cheese, have for a long time. I feel better when I remove cheese, wheat, grains including rice, reduce sugar, nightshades, processed foods including faux foods, etc. , reducing my inflammation levels. For each person it is different on what will trigger issues in the body and what those reactions will be. The proteins in dairy cause disturbances in the gut, very similar to what wheat does, very inflammatory, PD do not need more inflammation in the brain and body. The antibiotics, hormones and other things given to the cows is also detrimental to the human body, especially if you consume a lot of dairy. Dr Datis Kharrazian, PhD, DHSc, DC, MS, MMSc, FACN also has specialized in treating neurological disorders with nutrition, advises PD patients among others to avoid dairy and it's proteins effects on the gut and brain.

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