Dairy and Ketogenic

[jeeves19]

I’ve had it drilled into me as a PWP that milk and dairy are bad for the disease and contribute to progression. I’m just about the go Keto but am uncomfortable with the amount of dairy ingested whilst on it. Can anybody rationalise this contradiction? Ultimately I plan to stay on it for 3 months so there’s not time for too much ‘dairy damage’ but it’s an odd situation. Any observations welcome. Thanks.

[Xenos]

As far as I know, this dairy thing has no scientific background. It's something that people say...

[jeeves19 in reply to Xenos]

I thought Laurie Mischley found against it in her study though ?

[park_bear in reply to jeeves19]

She sure did:

"Dairy has been repeatedly associated with PD incidence [13–16], and this is

the first study to demonstrate an association between dairy consumption and an increased rate of PD progression."

I got off dairy because my doctor told me "Mr. Bear, you are eating too much fat". I did not actually decrease my fat intake, I just replaced dairy with almond butter and salmon, and my LDL numbers went down significantly.

[Xenos in reply to jeeves19]

Did not know that one... Correlation without causation, or should my cheese go the same way as my NAC ?...

[amykp in reply to Xenos]

yes, correlation only, no proof. And it was LOW FAT dairy. Anyone eating keto should pretty much be sticking to high fat dairy anyway. (Butter, full fat cream and cheeses, whole milk yogurt...)

[Despe in reply to amykp]

Kefir is the best, even better than full fat yogurt, ORGANIC though. I am buying grass fed kefir for myself and my husband (PwP) is using coconut milk. Also, aged cheese is good to eat, lots of tyrosine.

[glenandgerry in reply to Xenos]

How do you mean 'should my cheese go the same way as my NAC?' Have you stopped taking NAC? If so, what was the reason?

Thanks

Gerry

[Xenos in reply to glenandgerry]

Yes glenandgerry I stopped NAC after a pubmed paper was discussed here.

As far as I remember, the study conclusion was that NAC was of no help in PD...

[glenandgerry in reply to Xenos]

Oh no - I thought that NAC was the one supplement that had evidence to back it up for PWP.

Have you noticed any difference since you stopped taking it? I guess you probably haven't. As with most supplements e.g. Vitamin C - we know it's good for us but we don't feel any different whether we take it or not.

[Hidden in reply to Xenos]

Xenos,

While NAC may not generate much glutathione to be effective as a direct treatment for PD, I would say it still has indirect value as an oxidative neutralizer of reactive oxygen species which in turn can be glutathione sparing and anti-inflammatory.

It is well established that reactive oxygen species is at elevated levels in PWPs, so neutralizers of ROS have value in PWPs.

Art

[Xenos in reply to Hidden]

Thanks Art. I will be moving to Europe this week. Good timing to give another try at NAC (3x600mg a day).

[laglag]

Here is an article I started reading about calcium that might help a bit. It's a website from a book called "How Not to Die". It talks about 15 different diseases that are killing people, one of them being Parkinson's. I haven't had a chance to purchase or read the book but I found some information online. I will send the link in a few minutes.....

nutritionfacts.org/topics/c...

[jeeves19 in reply to laglag]

Thanks Laglag

[LAJ12345 in reply to laglag]

I read the book. It is very interesting.

[laglag]

Here is the website I mentioned. A physical therapist recommended I read this book. The author recommends a "plant-based" diet.

nutritionfacts.org/video/ho...

[park_bear in reply to laglag]

He gets some things right but he gets the roles of carbs and fats wrong. I highly recommend this:

The Great Cholesterol Myth ... Why Lowering Your Cholesterol Won't Prevent Heart Disease-and the Statin-Free Plan that Will

amazon.com/gp/product/15923...

[Kia17 in reply to park_bear]

Hi Park_bear

In my opinion you are right. I have been on soft-ketogenic diet for a few months plus intermittent fasting and no gluten or bread. I have my lipid profile checked last week having my triglycerides even less than normal range and HDL was above normal, however my LDL rising. Obviously having high LDL for few months of the Ketogenic diet is normal according to Dr Burg. It will decline gradually after the fat cells’ triglycerides are used.

youtu.be/dCiRB29vkds(Not working as expected?)

Adam

I don’t take any dairy products while I have been on soft Ketogenic diet. In general I amnot okay with dairy.

[park_bear in reply to Kia17]

Per the book I linked to, LDL is an umbrella term that encompasses both good and bad fats. High LDL is not necessarily bad - it depends on what kind it is. So the conventional lipid panel that merely tells us HDL and LDL numbers is not really adequate. One can pursue better testing, or be content with other measures of cardiovascular health that are more telling, like blood pressure and exercise tolerance.

[park_bear in reply to Kia17]

Bio hacker Dave Feldman talks about high LDL's on the keto diet - what LDLs are for and why it happens:

youtube.com/watch?v=y8pybQj...(Not working as expected?)

[Kia17 in reply to park_bear]

Absolutely. We would need to measure the LDL-C and LDL-P to be able to differentiate but as the test is expensive our health system rely solely on the total LDL.

[jeeves19 in reply to Kia17]

Kia. Where are you getting recipes from then if dairy is taking a back seat? The Keto seems so restrictive that if one takes out cheese, cream etc you are left with meat and veg eh? Seems pretty dull!

[Kia17 in reply to jeeves19]

Adam, As far as I remember even before Dxed with PD ,When I took dairy I felt down and had drooling.

[Kevin51 in reply to jeeves19]

I don't eat meat at all and find pan-fried fresh fish in coconut oil both quick and nutritious and white fish is really good for you (tasty with lots of lemon juice and cooked just enough to start falling apart)

sciencedaily.com/releases/2...

[LAJ12345 in reply to Kevin51]

The post a few days ago said fish is associated with shortening telomeres. See fourth utube clip at about 4.2 minutes:

healthunlocked.com/parkinso...

It is hard to know who to believe.

[Kevin51 in reply to LAJ12345]

I looked at the link - interesting so thanks for the tip! I will stick with fish nonetheless as there is so much evidence for it being a healthy food choice. I would guess that you can eat too much protein and my wife (bless her) makes humungous amounts of vegetable soups with lots of turmeric!

[NRyan in reply to jeeves19]

The TRUE ketogenic diet is the one that supports brain health. It was originally created for people with epilepsy. Protein does not play a prominent role. Quality fat this the main component. The bacon loving craze of keto is a recent evolution for people who want weight loss/maintenance without eating truly healthy. As you say, without carbs...what else is there? I suggest if you are trying keto to look into the original keto diet for neuro health.

[jeeves19 in reply to NRyan]

So how does old school Keto differ to the latest interpretation?

[MBAnderson in reply to Kia17]

park_bear is always right.

[park_bear in reply to MBAnderson]

Easy, bro. Too much praise and I will get a swelled head and become totally insufferable.

[JAS9 in reply to laglag]

Yes, plant-based, especially whole food plant-based is the way to go. Whole food just means very little processing. I've done well on a WFPB diet, as have many others with or without PD.

Dairy is a problem for PWP. youtube.com/watch?v=czm6oBx...(Not working as expected?)

And here are 5 ways that a vegan diet helps PwP: youtu.be/bSxdNJk-ej0(Not working as expected?)

[MBAnderson]

Go gently into Keto.

youtube.com/watch?v=IHYL9L7...(Not working as expected?)

I suspect the harm from dairy, or for that matter everything else in life, is as a matter of degree. The more dairy, sugar, gluten, we consume, the more damage that's done.

We've been pursuing Keto for a year and have figured out we end up adhering more closely if we don't try to adhere perfectly.

[jeeves19]

What effects has the Keto had on you? Would you recommend it? I’m merely responding to the obviously good data from the Kiwi results but am puzzled. The Keto gang did very well in the time allotted but presumably ingested lots of cream etc Ergo dairy cant be as injurious to us as is possibly believed?

[Kia17 in reply to jeeves19]

Adam,

For me, more mind clarity, less tiredness, much less body aches. In general feeling better with soft Keto diet.

[LAJ12345 in reply to jeeves19]

If it is the sugar ie galactose in the milk that is a problem cream has less of it. I saw somewhere homogenised milk is the worst so I buy the non permeate farm style whole milk now. Not sure if it is better or not. Too many variables.

[Kevin51]

Hi Jeeves

I gave up milk last month and am better for it (bloating gone and LD seems to absorbs better) - I found that yoghurt was less of a problem so eat lots of that (natural bifidus).

[laglag in reply to Kevin51]

Have you tried almond milk?

[Kevin51 in reply to laglag]

No I have not been able to find any without artificial sweeteners - which are not good for the biome. Yoghurt (no additives) does not seem to compete with LD as much as milk does - certainly no bloating.

[JANVAN]

Just checked in the papers of the Seminar from Dr. Joachim Mutter : dairy free (arm) diet, decrease the antibody against the acid folic receptors.

And the low level of acid folic is a contributing factor in most neurodegenerative diseases,

therefore I have to do once weekly an injection with 5-MTHF 500microgramm.

[jeeves19]

Sorry Janvan. Have read your post 4 times and am a little confused by the meaning. Would you be able to have a second shot? Are you dairy free?

[PDGal4]

I eat little dairy as lactose intolerant. Can eat cheese, however, which I eat intermittently, usually when my body craves it. Feta/goat cheese, I believe, is better for you. I also eat butter, but organic or locally produced from grass fed cows only.

I love guacamole and when I go to Whole Foods market, I generally buy 3 containers since the store is a bit of a drive. They make it right in the store. One week I visited the market twice so ate guacamole daily. At the end of the week I realized I was feeling better, less stiff and more fluid in my movements. Attributing to the oil in the avocado, so I have decided to eat an avocado daily. Stocked up at the store yesterday. (Interestingly I craved avocados when I was pregnant with my son 32 years ago and also ate one daily.)

[LAJ12345]

Not strictly on topic but this paper has lots of interesting info on dairy.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[jeeves19]

Thanks Laj

[jennrich]

Keto does not need to include dairy. Good sources of fat include coconut (in all forms except usually coconut water... too much sugar), avocado (including avocado oil for cooking at high temps), olive oil, fat from organic/pastured meats, and egg yolks. (Contrary to popular belief, eggs are not considered dairy.) Also, nut butters and unsweetened nut milks as well as coconut butter are delicious. And although it is dairy, grass fed organic butter has so much goodness you should have it as long as you have no allergies or sensitivities to it. [My opinion for what it's worth.🙂]